{Ed. note: Article posted with permission of author. Edited slightly for web formatting.}
| From: | "marc" <[email protected]> | |
| Subject: | [stcircle] The Oath Sworn... | |
| Date sent: | Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:12:32 +0100 |
(long mail- sorry- but the stuff at the bottom I think is important!)
> > I think, in the end, it'll be an advantage to _not_ be Oathsworn....
>
> I hope not.
>
> > Marc - I'm going to get into general praise for your wisdom and insight
> below. I think you are wonderful.
(blush)
> > Now, when I say 'bad', I mean it's not having the effect you describe.
Gosh... gee...
:P
I see.
It has no effect on the local
> game. I also find it kind of odd that in an organization which we want to be
> filled with deceitful, manipulative bastards who aren't engaging in hack and
> slash, we bring in an Oath which we expect them to swear to uphold on pain
> of death.
I think perhaps the problem lies in one salient fact-
> > This isn't to say that the Oath plot can't be fixed. Maybe it has and I
People take the Oath and WALK AWAY.
They do NOT see what the Oath means.
And in THAT lies the problem.
> just haven't seen it.
I think people forget the actual OATH itself. The words they say.
> > Also, the final point - the Oath plot disproportionately favors those who
> participate in the convention circuit. It's probably heresy to say this but
> many of our best roleplayers DON'T. Many of the people you say you want
> represented don't - because many smart vampires (the characters of
> intelligent roleplayers) know that mixing with other vampires away from your
> home turf is a sure way to die. You can have your own city neatly sewn up so
> that you are reasonably safe, but go somewhere else and all bets are off.
(nods)
> I mean let's stop pretending that there is ANY link between TT Vampire and
There was a proxy option with the first Oath- I remember the write up- the
proxy Oath Sworn turned up at a seperate time- i.e. the PC's could take the
Oath and NOT be jumped upon.
The proxy option should remain. Just my take...
> our game. TT works because it suspends control over the rest of the world-
> ST controls game, players interact and they can encounter the world as the
> ST sees fit.
> Here- WE are the rest of the world.
>
> > I agree with this. We should put it in writing so everyone knows. Like on
> the first page of the rules set.
(nods)
Or better yet...
Write up the campaign differances?
I know this is a project that the VPST's office has been TRYING to do for about a year now- the Timelines is part of it. Snapshot is another part of it. Why hasn't it been done?
Do folks have ANY idea how emotive/time consuming rules discussions are?
They are the biggest pants thing in the society. The campaign stands upon a
large step ladder and craps upon the heads of ALL rules... and yet ST's
focus 95% of their attention on boring rules debates.
Which in turn means high level ST's (ANST's NST's and VPST office) spend 95%
of their time on rules. It's a Catch 22.
Sod the rules.
I don't care WHAT rules system we use- 5.1 rocks folks- sure it can be
improved- but I hate to say it- ALL rules systems have weaknesses and
arguing the point over one system or the other is pissing into the gale of
reality...
CAMPAIGN is all.
The Campaign is God.
We forget THAT at our peril.
We did NOT become the worlds largest live action society because our rules
rocked, OK folks. The rules played NO part in it.
>
:)
> We NEED the Oath Sworn. We need to go BEYOND the Oath Sworn.
> We need, as ST's to deliberatly and systematically PUNISH those characters
> who are NICE- we need to encourage trechery, intrigue and above all, those
> who support the camarilla.
>
> > In the words of the Southern Baptists in the States: "Testify!"
> > Perhaps a new idea for a thread - how can we, as STs, go about doing this?
See below.
> I've personally railed about the perils of IRC before. It needs to be fixed,
> or removed from the game, because the way it works now breaks the Camarilla
> setting.
IRC we need because it allows global communication and is a great tool. But it is nieve to think it is not having a negative effect. In fact I think we need to say this head on... to the main users of IRC...
"Dear IRC uses...
Many (not all) of you are having difficulty with IRC. i rarely go on IRC- in my time RECENTLY I have witnessed the following-
*An ELDER talking about how much they like contemporary music
*Elders supporting Anarchs against Harpies.
*Other things which are... not really World of Darkness. World of Light grey with shades of pink yes, Darkness no.As an ST, why should I not start standing on a table and demanding that IRC is banned from the sanctioned game. please do NOT talk about fairness (one could argue that in using IRC you are discriminating against all those who do not etc). please talk about the campaign setting.
thank you"
Give them a month to come up with a decent answer?
> > The Elders should be the most eager to support the Camarilla. They should
:)
> have the most to lose by not doing so. They should have the most to gain by
> keeping it strong.
Amen!
Or rather-
they should be the biggest supporters in PUBLIC.
In private they could hate the damn thing.
Don't forget the Elders have acess to the 7th Tradition-
"Thou shalt not get caught!"
Elders get advantages neonates don't get.
They should be ready to turn on any of their number who
As such, Elders get pounishments Neonates would NEVER imagine even at the
hands of the sabbat.
High stakes.
> does not toe the party line like savage, rabid wolves (and this does not
> necessarily mean killing - if you make the Camarilla actually work as a
> society, an Elder with one status is going to be a miserable, pathetic
> creature, which is much better than dead:).
(nods)
> > In my mind (please let me know if I'm wrong) that's an immature version of
YES!
I said this in the past- the ultimate evil is to corrupt a character sheet-
do not kill PC's- make the PC become the opposite of what the player wanted.
:)
> being Prince. It's like a five year old talking about being President so he
> can make his birthday a national holiday. Princes should know they have
> further to fall. They've got to lick the brass ring, and now they are stuck
> on a course - they support the Camarilla and make a city well-suited to the
> needs of the treacherous, manipulative bastards who make up the Camarilla's
> membership, or they suffer. If they're lucky, their successor grants them
> Final Death. The unlucky ones have to go back to living like low status
> peons. Worse. Because all the other low status peons are going to resent
> them.
(in the tradition of 'When Harry met Sally')
YES, oh God YES!... Yes... YES!
Ahem.
> > It seems to be you're talking about the whole 'ST as referee' thing here.
(smile)
Not quite.
> > It has never been my experience that players will do this. Why? Do I think
ST's a the storytellers- the narrators- the Octroi.
> players suck? No. I think humans are by and large lazy.
And the solution to this is- conequences.
It is easy to
I once ran an entire campaign based on one random encounter.
Went like this- PC got arrested for some crime. No one had Legal influence.
5 other PC's said 'We will get them out'.
I smiled.
Said 'OK'.
Three hours later I had six months of plot- a police station trashed; two
miles of road a flaming ball of death (the PC's made their drive tests- the
other random drivers didn't); two masquerade breaches, and over 42 human
deaths later- I walked away and allowed that one event dominate local
politics for I dunno... as I said six months...
> resolve things violently and be the Camarilla in name only. To construct a
> society of deceitful bloodsuckers takes effort.
The Tradition of Destruction.
THAT is the answer there in BLACK AND WHITE.
What does this say-
It says that if ANY PC- ANY GODDAMN PC in the Cam/Anarch venue is killed and
they are not Bloodhunted at the time it is a DIRECT and complete attack upon
the power of the prince- period- end of story- no debate- do not pass go- do
not collect $200.
END
OF
STORY.
With ANY death of ANY PC NOT bloodhunted, the IC game should stop.
No more Primogen meetings, no more status given, no more nothing IC.
Except- the prince going 'Who the HELL just violated MY domain' and the
Sheriff being let lose.
That's it.
No more no less.
It's the end all be all.
Creating a PC and killing a PC costs our players NOTHING.
Thus doing it is worthless.
Unless we as ST's are prepared to sit there and when a PC dies remind the
players that unless sanction by the prince of the domain they died in, it is
the next biggest step to a Praxis siezure, then it will ALWAYS remain
worthless folks.
The Tradition of Destruction says only the Eldest may take another Kindred
life.
Period.
oh, and when Elders go 'Well I am the oldest'- smile... why smile. 2nd Tradition- Domain- 'NONE may question thee in thine own Domain'. So, if a Prince SAYS the Tradition of Destruction applies to THEM not the visiting Elder- guess who is right?
Opps.
>
I am ranting again...
> Players who think their ST is gonna spoon feed them need to be wheened of TT
> BIG TIME.
>
> > Again...without (real life) guns, nightclubs and legal power, you can only
> compel people to do two things: 'jack' and 'shit'. You can encourage these
> people to play properly, or you can encourage them to leave, but right now
> you can't make them do either.
I say the former.
Ok, the Oath Sworn.
This is marc being the Octroi.
Being the instigator of cause and effect.
Why are the Oath Sworn not played right?
Because 80% of folks who took the Oath did NOT think or do not think about
what it means.
What follows is a never sent out (or maybe it was) declaration of what it
means to be Oath Sworn- what it MEANS- it is how Oath Sworn SHOULD be
played. It is IC and as such a few of the views are kinda personal and
subjective but for me THIS is the guide to the Oath Sworn.
ALL players who took the Oath should be given this- and all players who did
NOT take the Oath should be given this and told 'This is what these Oath
Sworn folks should act like'.
THIS is the definition of Oath broken.
******************
Oathsworn.Are you Oathsworn?
Do you know what it means?
Really?It seems to me some OathSworn have forgotten what it means.
It seems to me that, no, not you who read my words now, but others- have become OathSworn because it affords them protection- protection without a price.I say there is a Price. I say that WE the Oathsworn must may sure the price is paid by our fellow OathSworn. I say that we owe the Camarilla enough to enforce the Oath.
But what is the price- what is it we must be.
What does it mean to be OathSworn?The Oath begins-
"Upon the symbol and the banner I hereby swear that I am not tied currently to those who are known as the Anarchs, to those who are known as the Sabbat, and to those who are known as the Inconnu, for they are not the Camarilla and their ways bring harm to the Camarilla. If I have been, or currently am, a member of those Sects I hereby before all who witness renounce forever all ties, boons, and affiliations with those who are known as the Anarchs, with those who are known as the Sabbat, and with those who are known as the Inconnu."What I have sworn to do-
-I believe that the Sabbat, the Anarchs and the Inconnu bring harm to the Camarilla.
-I have no links to them.
-I will never NOT believe that the Sabbat, the Anarchs and the Inconnu bring harm to the Camarilla. EVER!
-I will NEVER make links with them- I have renounced forever- past and future. I will take no Boons from those groups. I know all boons, all links and affiliations they do bring harm to the Camarilla. I know that every word they say is a lie- all they ever plan to do is do harm to the Camarilla.The Great Oath Says-
"I am now and onwards only loyal to the Sect of the Camarilla, and no other Sects may claim me as their own. I pledge hereby to uphold the Six Traditions of the Camarilla, and above all the Tradition of the Masquerade for it is the guiding light under which the Camarilla leads. Let no Elder, no Prince, no Anarch nor any other Cainite sway me from my support of these Traditions."What I have Sworn to do-
-I will uphold the first tradition- I will not reveal my true nature to those not off the blood.
-I will uphold the second tradition- I will never question or act against ANY in whose domain I reside in or visit- I shall never support a Praxis siezure unless it is against one who seeks to damage the Camarilla.
-I will never Sire without permission, specific permission, of the Prince of whose Domain I reside in or visit.
-I will hold to the principle of the accounting- until released mine Childer are extensions of my will.
-I will uphold the tradition of hospitality- I will not spend time in any Domain unless the Prince gives me permission to do so. If I have not that permission, I shall leave.
-I shall honour the tradition of destruction- unless the hunt is legal I shall not strike or kill except in self defense.
-I believe that I have sworn a sacred Oath to uphold and LIVE by these Traditions.
-I believe that those who have NOT sworn the Oath, no matter their standing in the Camarilla, no matter they be Prince or Anarch, Elder or neonate, cannot and will not sway me in these opinions- I will not change my opinions on the Traditions.
-I place the Oath above all; above them.The Great Oath then says:
"I pledge hereby to hold inviolate the tenets of Elysium. I will not seek to do harm to others upon that ground, nor influence them with the gifts of Caine, nor seek to destroy the arts and properties held within. If attacked, I will do what is necessary to secure myself from harm, but will not seek destruction upon those grounds upon my attacker."What I have Sworn to do-
-I believe that Elysium is sacred. That our Kind all to often seek to end our struggles with violence and death.
-I believe that those who seek violence and death are dangerous to our Kind.
-That Elysium is the place which allows us meet, commune and allows our society to exist. That to attack Elysia is to attack our society. That NO action must be taken to break Elysia- NO deaths must despoil an Elysia.
-I believe that Elysia is a place for words- not violence.
-I believe that the powers of Dominate or any other Gift of Caine that could be used to cause violence within Elysium is as bad as the act of violence itself. I will not utilise these things in Elysia.
-I believe that once a Cainite is killed in an Elysia- that Elysia is 'spoilt'.
-I believe that the items within an Elysia are as sacred as the Elysia itself.
-I believe no Prince, no Harpy, no Elder, no Anarch can transcend Elysia. Only the Archons and the Justicars- whose burden is so great- that they must hunt the crininal no matter where it hides.The Great Oath says-
"I pledge to expand the dominion of the Camarilla where I can responsibly and in good faith."What I have Sworn to do-
-I believe that I shall help the Camarilla increase it's numbers where it does not jeapondise the peace of Cain to be found in Elysia, and where it does not contracdict the other beliefs of the Oath.The Great Oath says-
"I pledge to respect the Prince and her officers which govern over me, to respect the Prince and her officers in those cities I travel to. I pledge to respect the Justicars and their judgements, and the Inner Circle and its edicts."What I have Sworn to do-
-I believe that a Prince of a Domain is righteous and justified.
-I believe that I must never support an attempt to usurp my Prince.
-I believe that I must never support an attempt to usurp a prince to whose Domain I travel to.
-I believe it is my duty to help every lawful Sheriff, every Keeper, every Harpy.
-I believe it is my duty to obey the will of the Justicars. Without question.
-I believe it is my duty to obey the Edicts of those placed above us in the Inner Circle- who act for the good of all.The Great Oath says-
"Let the enemies of the Camarilla become my enemies; those of the Red List, the Sabbat, and the Anarchs shall find no favor in my domain and city. Those who have been blood hunted, their names upon the Red List, or who are Sabbat I will seek to bring down and destroy without mercy. The Assamites will know no favor or refuge in my city, and they will be hunted back to their mountaintop."What I have Sworn to do-
-I believe that those the Camarilla calls foe of the Camarilla is MY foe. I shall treat them accordingly.
-Those on the Red List, those who are Sabbat, those who are Anarchs will find our eyes harsh and our minds strong- that I believe them to be foes. That their ways bring harm to the Camarilla. I shall not attack without thought- but I shall judge them. I shall expect them to act like monsters. I shall expect them to be fools. I shall expect them to ALWAYS be seeking to bring low the Camarilla. As such I believe none of them, consider them to be liars when they say they do not seek to hurt it and shall give them no favor in this opinion.
- Those who are bloodhunted, those who are Sabbat and those who are upon the Red List, the Sacred Camarilla has condemned to death. Thus we are at war. Thus I shall destroy them.
-I believe those who are Assamite- they, like the Red List and the Sabbat and the Anarchs seek to do harm to the Camarilla. I shall act towards them as I act towards those who shall find no favour. They may talk to me- if civil I shall talk to them. I shall treat them with dignity and bearing. But I know they seek to destroy us in all things; this shall color my words. Added to that if an Assamite were to come to my Domain seeking sanctury from a crime they have committed against the Camarilla I would not aid them. Indeed, if an Assamite is wanted for breaking our Elysia or attacking one of our kind and is fleeing, not only will they find no refuge in my Domain, but I shall aid the hunt of them back to their haven. I will not start aggresive actions against them- for they are not of the Camarilla. But I shall defend myself and my sect agressively.The Oath ends with-
"These things I do swear before the Camarilla and its witnesses. I swear by my honor and the gift of my embrace that I will strive with every effort to hold these tenets true, and should I fail hope that I am cast out as Oath-Breaker for my betrayal."-I believe I must be held to task for these words.
*******************************
To summate:
What does it mean to be OathSworn?
I believe we live our lives by a code.
The Code is the Oath.
The Code says--I believe that the Sabbat, the Anarchs and the Inconnu bring harm to the Camarilla.
-I have no links to them.
-I will never NOT believe that the Sabbat, the Anarchs and the Inconnu bring harm to the Camarilla.
-I will NEVER make links with them- I have renounced forever- past and future. I will take no Boons from those groups. I know all boons, all links and affiliations they do bring harm to the Camarilla.
-I believe that those the Camarilla calls foe of the Camarilla is MY foe. I shall treat them accordingly.
-Those on the Red List, those who are Sabbat, those who are Anarchs will find our eyes harsh and our minds strong- that I believe them to be foes. That their ways bring harm to the Camarilla. I shall not attack without thought- but I shall judge them. I shall expect them to act like monsters. I shall expect them to be fools. I shall expect them to ALWAYS be seeking to bring low the Camarilla. As such I believe none of them, consider them to be liars when they say they do not seek to hurt it and shall give them no favour in this opinion.
- Those who are bloodhunted, those who are Sabbat and those who are upon the Red List, the Sacred Camarilla has condemned to death. Thus we are at war. Thus I shall destroy them.
-I believe those who are Assamite- they, like the Red List and the Sabbat and the Anarchs seek to do harm to the Camarilla. I shall act towards them as I act towards those who shall find no favour. They may talk to me- if civil I shall talk to them. i shall treat them with dignity and bearing. But I know they seek to destroy us in all things; this shall color my words. Added to that if an Assamite were to come to my Domain seeking sanctury from a crime they have committed against the Camarilla I would not aid them. Indeed, if an Assamite is wanted for breaking our Elysia or attacking one of our kind and is fleeing, not only will they find no refuge in my Domain, but I shall aid the hunt of them back to their haven. I will not start aggresive actions against them- for they are not of the Camarilla. But i shall defend myself and my sect agressively.
-I will uphold the first tradition- I will not reveal my true nature to those not off the blood.
-I will uphold the second tradition- I will never question or act against ANY in whose domain I reside in or visit- I shall never support a Praxis siezure unless it is against one who seeks to damage the Camarilla.
-I believe that a Prince of a Domain is righteous and justified.
-I believe that I must never support an attempt to usurp my Prince.
-I believe that I must never support an attempt to usurp a prince to whose Domain I travel to.
-I believe it is my duty to help every lawful Sheriff, every Keeper, every Harpy provided they follow the will of their Prince.
-I will never Sire without permission, specific permission of the Prince of whose Domain I reside in or visit.
-I will hold to the principle of the accounting- until released mine Childer are extensions of my will.
-I will uphold the tradition of hospitality- I will not spend time in any Domain unless the Prince gives me permission to do so. If I have not that permission, I shall leave.
-I shall honour the tradition of destruction- unless the hunt is legal I shall not strike or kill.
-I believe that I have sworn a sacred Oath to uphold and LIVE by these Traditions.
-I believe that those who have NOT sworn the Oath, no matter their standing in the Camarilla, no matter they be Prince or Anarch, Elder or neonate, cannot and will not sway me in these opinions- I will not change my opinions on the Traditions.
-I believe that Elysium is sacred. That our Kind all to often seek to end our struggles with violence and death.
-I believe that those who seek violence and death are dangerous to our Kind.
-That Elysium is the place which allows us meet, commune and allows our society to exist. That to attack Elysia is to attack our society. That NO action must be taken to break Elysia- NO deaths must despoil an Elysia.
-I believe that Elysia is a place for words- not violence.
-I believe that the powers of Dominate or any other Gift of Caine that could be used to cause violence within Elysium is as bad as the act of violence itself. I will not utilise these things in Elysia.
-I believe that once a Cainite is killed in an Elysia- that Elysia is 'spoilt'.
-I believe that the items within an Elysia are as sacred as the Elysia itself.
-I believe no Prince, no Harpy, no Elder, no Anarch can transcend Elysia. Only the Archons and the Justicars- whose burden is so great- that they must hunt the crininal no matter where it hides.
-I believe that I shall help the Camarilla increase it's numbers where it does not jeapondise the peace of Cain to be found in Elysia, and where it does not contracdict the other beliefs of the Oath.
-I believe it is my duty to obey the will of the Justicars. Without question.
-I believe it is my duty to obey the Edicts of those placed above us in the Inner Circle- who act for the good of all.
-I believe I must be held to task for these words.**************************
Now THAT for me, is how an Oath Sworn should be played. If this does not
match someones ideas of how their Oath Sworn PC should be playted- well
TOUGH.
They took the damn thing- not my problem if they didn't READ it.
We should enforce this. Always.
We should hand these words around. We should print up copies and whenever a
visting player comes to our Domain and they play a big bad Oath Sworn Elder
we should hand it too them and smile and say 'By the way- this is how
EVERYONE in this game will expect you to act'.
We should have the Justicars issue these words.
We should take this and hold it REAL high.
Hey, I LIKE the Oath.
Prevents players from being good guys.
:)
Bottom line- this is marc just ranting on about what marc ALWAYS rants on about- the COST.
There is no such thing as a bad plot- there are just good plots badly done.
:)
Unless we enforce the cost in all things- be Octroi- we will fail.
I mean, if those words were issued IC by the Justicars for example, how many
PC's do we know who are Oath Sworn would go 'Oh my GOD'?
:)
The idea makes me grin.
ENFORCE the COST.
The 'price of being'.
That is the ST's only true duty... everything else is just refereeing. It is the cost that makes us differant from a normal TT GM.
We ignore this at our peril.
Oh look... I am stood on a table again.
Sorry!
:)
marc torley
UK179
timelines project lead
founder of the 'bastard league'
"I am a bastard too; I love bastards.
I am bastard begot, bastard instructed,
bastard in mind, bastard in valor,
in everything illegitimate..."
-William Shakespeare
Troilus and Cressida.