============================== Welcome to the Talon FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) ============================== Most of this information comes from Fun Supply's Talon (Stealth) Forum at http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/71036 or the Fun Supply's Airgun forum at http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/79537 (This information has not been verified. I am not responsible for any hardware damage, or personal harm resulting from the use of this information.) ============================== Recent Changes ============================== 2/10/02 Started FAQ 2/28/02 Added another moderator, 100 pellet shots, pump setup, barrel cleaning, and tactical light 3/2/02 Added pellet and accuracy info/settings 3/22/02 Added misc., pellet trap, and info on buying Divers Grease 4/15/02 Added How many fills will I get from an scuba tank? 1/20/03 Added another moderator design, looks like the best one yet (Thanks Mikhail P) 1/20/03 Added trigger slop removal 1/20/03 Added list of "must have" add-ons for the Talno ============================== SECTION LINKS ============================== GENERAL TALON INFORMATION AVAILABLE TALON ACCESSORIES OTHER USEFUL ACCESORIES BEST PRICES FOR TALON & ACCESSORIES NEWBIE QUESTIONS & ANSWERS INITIAL SETTINGS USING THE TALON POWER WHEEL SETTINGS FAVORITE SCOPES BEST SCOPE PRICES ZEROING YOUR SCOPE FAVORITE SCOPE MOUNTS LASERS TACTICAL LIGHTS FAVORITE AMMO TYPES PELLET HOLDERS PELLET TRAPS LUBES & GREASES BARREL CLEANING EXPECTED POWER AND NUMBER OF SHOTS VELOCITY OF 100 SHOTS ON A SINGLE FILL PELLET ACCURACY & POWER TESTING MAC1'S O-RING OR QUAD-SEAL MODIFICATION MAC1'S CUSTOM SETUP REDUCING THE PING NOISE INTERNAL COMPONENT SPECS BARREL REPLACEMENT BREECH/BOLT REMOVAL AN EASY MODERATOR TRIGGER TUNE TOPHAT SPRING REPLACEMENT FX PUMP SETUP AIR-TANK FILL FORMULA ============================== GENERAL INFO ============================== Talon Manufacturer - AirForce AirGuns http://www.airforceairguns.com/ Video $13 877-247-4867 Talon Owner's Manual http://www.airforceairguns.com/talon_manual.html Fun Supply's Talon Forum http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/71036 Talon Pictures and Schematics - Keith Buckner http://alpinetek.netfirms.com/guns/talon/ Talon Reviews http://www.funsupply.com/airguns/talonreview.html http://airgunletter.net/~talon/ http://www.ishop.co.uk/ishop/14/shopscr12.html Talon Picture/Info http://www.straightshooters.com/talon/talon.html AirForce AirGuns: Talon and Talon SS Rifles Air Force Air Guns of Texas has produced one of the most talked about new creations in pre-charged airgun technology. The Talon rifles are simple, portable, light powerful, and accurate. The design is function. Well thought out with a minimum of complicated components, it is one of the best and least expensive rifles to cut your teeth on in pre-charged guns. The rifle is not a semi or fully automatic as its looks may present. It is an effective easy to load single shot, and with the power it demonstrates that's all you really need. It is very easy to add features to this rifle, as most of the body (top and bottom) has an integrated 3/8in (11mm) dovetail mount. This modular design makes it a snap to add or change multiple sighting systems, lighting systems, lasers, and a bi-pod or sling. The rifle comes in a few basic configurations and can be built on from there. The basic Talon set is a 1000fps .22cal (5.5mm) rifle and tank that uses an 18 inch Lothar-Walther barrel in combination with TRU-GLO open sights for excellent accuracy. The Talon SS set is available in .177 cal (4.5mm) or .22 cal (5.5mm) and includes an integrated sound suppression system on a 12 inch barrel for quieter high powered shooting. All sets include a fill station clamp and pressure gauge that attaches to a SCUBA tank for charging. For most other pre-charged rifle this is an additional expense and will cost you up to $300. The Talon rifles feature adjustable velocities which allow you to tune the rifle to reach maximum performance and efficiency from a particular pellet. This also allows you to conserve power and increase the amount of shots per tank for target shooting or use full power for maximum takedown power and penetration. The rifles design again comes through with the large ambidextrous loading port that cocks the rifle and sets the automatic safety in one stoke. The trigger is light and crisp with good follow through, like that of a match target rifle but engages targets with two times the muzzle velocity and more than that in muzzle energy. ============================== AVAILABLE TALON ACCESSORIES ============================== Talon Adapter; only required when used with scuba tank. Fiber Optic Sights; removable, can not be used with a scope & hard to use in bright daylight. Bipod; removable, custom made to fit the 11 mm rail on the Talon ($60) Sling mounting studs; removable, must be used to attach a sling ($20) Accessory Bar; Air-Pump; RWS, Webley, or Arizona's FX (FX uses Airforce 1/4 BSP Refill adapter U1010 $22) AFG Maintenance Video with barrel changing instructions 1-877-247-4867 Mac1 o-ring ============================== BEST PRICES FOR TALON & ACCESSORIES ============================== Talon SS @ $395 Backyard Safari http://www.thebackyardsafari.com/air_rifles.htm 1-800-400-6634 Mac1 http://www.mac1airgun.com/ Super Stroke FX Pump @ $150 - http://www.airgunsofarizona.com 1(480)461-1113 $179.00 + $15.00 shipping via Priority mail insured 2-3 day. This includes a braided SS microline and a Stainless steel foster quick disconnect set installed ($50 option). http://www.silverstreaksports.com 314-427-8349 Pellets - D&R Sports Center or Mac1's annual April sale ============================== OTHER ACCESORIES ============================== Doskocil Case DOSK10505 - Deluxe Series Accessory Case Inner Dimensions: 26 1/4" x 13" x 4 3/4" ($41) http://www.caseplaceusa.com/doskocil_gun.htm Laptop Computer Case, or 33" Tactical Cases - http://www.cheaperthandirt.com 1-800-421-8047 Ballistic Software, Airgun 7.5 (Free!) - http://home.hiwaay.net/~ispellan/Software.html Morgan adjustable butt plate ($25) from Cabelas Beeman Pellet Belt Pouch http://www.beeman.com/pellacc.htm Chrono Tech Speed Unit ($65) http://www.jgsa.com F1 Chrony ($61) http://chrony.ca/sc_mc.mv http://www.midwayusa.com Pro Chrono (avoid F1s-SilverStreak) Barrel Mounted Chrono - Combro CB625 Air Rifle Specialists Great Book - "Air Rifle Hunter's Guide" by Tom Holzel 159 pages ($35) http://www.beeman.com/special.htm or http://www.crowbusters.com 50% crow hunting, 25% ballistics, & 25% equipment. See how zeroing the scope at various distances can make a huge difference in trajectories. Airgun Hunting and Sport by Ron Robinson ($25) The Manic Compressive by Ron Robinson ($20) http://www.asportingchance.org/ Peter Capstick's book "Last Horizons's" (ISBN 0-312-02535-1) which is basically a compilation of his articles written for various magazines. The airgun articles are "Backyard Safari" from Guns & Ammo, June 1979 and "Minisniping" from Guns & Ammo, October 1984. The "Minisniping" article describes a contest of shooting empty 9mm shells at 35 yards which is the same a shooting a human torso at 1200 +/- yards. Another great book is "Death in the Long Grass" by Peter Hathaway Capstick. Although he has hunted with an air rifle, this book is not related to air rifles. Amazon.com has 33 pages of excerpts. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312186134/qid=1017167969/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5018249-7749448 One Reviewer said, "How good is this book? I've had 5 copies of it, the 1st 2 paperbacks were read till they fell apart. Capstick invokes the feeling of sitting around a campfire listening to stories. He tells a story the way way Monet painted, full of color and brilliance. His stories make you feel the sun beating down and you hear the tiny rustle of the long grass that means a charge. When you read his book(s) you're not going to feel like you're reading, you'll feel like you're there." ============================== FAVORITE SCOPES (Does not have to be an airgun scope) ============================== BRAND POWER OBJ AO FOCUS RETICLE LENGTH MDL BEST PRICE ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Tasco 2.5-10x 42mm Mil-Dot Bushnell 4-12x 40mm AO Trophy MDL73-4124 Bushnell 6-24x 42mm Trophy Swift 4-12X 40 AO 10 yds. 676M http://www.silverstreaksports.com/Swift_Scopes.htm Simmons 3.8-12x 44mmAO Aetec MDL2104 12" http://www.natchezss.com/index.html Leapers 6x 40mm AO Compact MiniScope SCP-640P ($50) http://www.galatiinternational.com/ or http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ I have either owned, or currently own probably ALL of the scopes that can be fitted to an airgun. Saying this, I have came to a conclusion. I will no longer buy Leupold or Burris, or any other extremely costly scope again. Here's what led me to my conclusion. There are 4 different scopes that I own that are just TOO CLOSE in performance to justify the extra money. I'm about to give all of the new airgunners some real good advice that I've learned the expensive way!! My experiences with Tasco, BSA, and Bushnell scopes has been mostly bad. I won't own these scopes, except for one Bushnell. The 4 scopes that I own that I think rival my $500 scopes are: Simmons Aetec 3.8x12-44mm A.O. Bushnell Scopechief 4x14 - 50mmA.O. Swift 4x12-40mm A.O. and the Bausch and Lomb Elite 3200 4x12-40mm A.O. Below are the lowest prices that I've found these for : Simmons $ 139 Bushnell $ 169 Swift $ 137 B&L $ 214 Now ALL of these scopes are primarily hunting scopes. I DO NOT TARGET SHOOT so I have left out any of the higher powered scopes ON PURPOSE. Every single one of these scopes is SO CLOSE in brightness and clarity to my Leupolds and Burris, that it's just scary. I know that some people who post here have "million" dollar testing equipment that can decipher all of the differences in these scopes, and they may want to refute my opinion, but the naked eye will BARELY see any difference. I took my Simmons Aetec to Airgunstock and a lot of respected airgunners were VERY impressed with the optics. They were shocked to know that it only cost $139. Now, maybe, just maybe, if you had a 125 yd. shot on a target when it was almost all the way dark, the Leupold or Burris might earn it's reputation better. BUT, how many times in a shooters lifetime will he encounter these conditions? C'mon guys, we're talking shooting rabbits and squirrels, not Elk at 1000 yds. ------------------------------ While both the Swift and the Aetec are VERY good scopes and I love them, to me they are not quite the equal on two points. First is the 44mm lens of the Aetec, I've compared both in low light hunting situations and the Simmons is much brighter. The other is downright optical clarity, the Aetec has an edge there too. In this regard, one of my Swifts is close to the Simmons, but the other two aren't quite up to the same standard. Where the Swift is better, is that it can stand heavy springer recoil. The Aetec can't. ============================== SCOPE MANUFACTURERS ============================== Tasco http://www.tasco.com/index.asp BSA http://www.bsaoptics.com/ Bushnell http://www.bushnell.com/ Simmons http://www.simmonsoptics.com/ Leapers http://www.leapers.com/ Swift http://www.swift-optics.com/index.htm Weaver http://www.weaveroptics.com/ Burris http://www.burrisoptics.com/ Leupold http://www.leupold.com/ Nikon http://www.nikonusa.com/usa_home/home.jsp ============================== BEST SCOPE PRICES ============================== http://www.swfa.com/riflescopes/bushnell/index.html http://www.jgsales.com http://www.natchezss.com/index.html (Trophy BH734124) Bushnell Trophy 6-24x 42mm @ $160 http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/ Tasco 2.5-10x42mm Mil-Dot @ $60 (Tasco 00009VAR2510X42M) http://www.wholesalehunter.net/TascoVAR2510X42M.html http://www.cdnninvestments.com/cdnn/scopes.html http://www.silverstreaksports.com/ (Swifts) Scope info http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh/sport.html Blazer Red Dot Sight ($30) http://www.cdnninvestments.com/simmons.html ------------------------------ ZEROING YOUR SCOPE (target @ http://www.ryde.demon.co.uk/zerotarget.htm) ------------------------------ For hunting I think you are better off setting the LOS (Line-of-sight) at the apex of the trajectory, probably at about 30 yards, and learn how much to hold over at estimated distances nearer and farther than that. Don't ask me why, but I have a psychological block to holding UNDER, otherwise I would have the LOS at 10 and about 50 for my gun and hold under at estimated distances between them. Intellectually it shouldn't make any difference but shooting is so much a mind game I don't try to fight it. ------------------------------ With the scope sitting 3" above the bore, I like to shoot CPs at around 800 fps (20+ ft-lbs) to get plenty of shots. When Zeroed at 50 yards it will hit 1.2" low at 10 yards, at 25 yards it will be 0.5" high, the pellet will never be higher than 0.85" between 20 and 50 yards. At 55 yards it will be 0.5 low. This gives 1/2" ctc groups at 50 yards ------------------------------ I too shoot FT with the pellet trajectory crossing the LOS twice at 17 and 34 yards. For my gun/pellet combination this results in the smallest difference in trajectory height over the range where most of the targets on our course are placed. I don't hold over or under or think of adding or subtracting to elevation settings, instead I have a table that shows the ACTUAL turret settings at one yard increments from 10 to 20 and 35 to 50, and five yard increments from 20 to 35 yards. This way I don't have to think about adding or subtracting, just a given setting for a given distance. Also, it really doesn't matter whether the trajectory peaks at the LOS or crosses it twice. ------------------------------ The scope is set up to be dead on near the top of the pellets arc. This "flat" part of the pellet's path is pretty wide. At 18 yards and 40 yards, the pellet is about 1/4" below the crosshairs. At 30 yards the pellet hits about 1/4" higher than the crosshairs. You can play with the parameters in Ian Pelants balistic software to find the setup that best suits your shooting situation. ------------------------------ I have an ABO mil-dotted 4-12X40 Swift. It is a dream! If you adjust your scope for dead on at 10 meters, you can aim with the third mil-dot up the crosshair at about 60 yards and you need to go all the way to about 80 to go back to center crosshair. At 30/40 you aim with the third dot up. ABO (USA), Inc. 2653 NW 20th Street Suite 2000 Miami, FL 33142 Tel 305-859-2010 Fax 305-372-8616 ============================== FAVORITE SCOPE MOUNTS ============================== Beeman 5030H $25 Mac1 drooper @ 30 minutes http://www.mac1airgun.com/ BKL drooper http://www.silverstreaksports.com/ ------------------------------ BKL has some excellent droopers, put on your scope with the BKL low mounts or other low mounts since the Talon has no kick, BKL's are not really needed as mounts. The need for droopers in this gun is not because of anything other than the very large distance between barrel and scope. That makes it also sensitive to canting. A bubble level somewhere is useful if it can be seen from shooting position. ------------------------------ HIGHER MOUNTS (like Talon) A higher mount will allow an extended trajectory, because of the higher distance from the bore's centerline (my Talon is 3"). You will have to dial in a bit more elevation in the scope to compensate for the greater center to center distance, but it'll pay off with the long shots. At very close ranges, the pellet will strike UNDER the line of sight until it reaches the first crossover point (zero) then rises above the line of sight for more yards than a medium height mount would provide, finally crossing the line of sight at a farther distance (zero again). The real POI will be within your crosshair position for more yards than a low mount would allow for, and with minimal corrections. ------------------------------ BARREL DROOP Mac-1 can take any 1" or 30MM tube scope mount you own and for a $20 labor fee we can cut custom droop and windage for you. In order to figure out exactly what your requirements are you want to center the adjustments of the scope and shoot at the middle of a 8X11 sheet of paper at 10 yards with a straight mount. We need to know how much low/high/left/right it shoots and we can cut your mounts or a set we supply to compensate for your scope to barrel misalignment. It is always a good idea to make sure the barrel is straight and the gun is operating properly with a proper breech seal etc. before modifying mounts for a specific gun. http://www.mac1airgun.com/droopers.html ------------------------------ CANTING Canting is the act of tilting the rifle to one or the other side. Keep it perpenticular. The higher the scope sits on the rifle the worse the effect of canting and the Talon has it some 3" above. A B-square level is a $12.00 2" bubble level that sits on the rifle and helps you keep it level. ============================== LASERS ============================== Can be used in conjunction with a scope; if the laser is slung underneath the gun's barrel, the scope on top of the guns receiver, and both are sighted in for x metres If the dot appears on the target below the centre of the scope's cross hairs, the target is closer than x metres, if it's above, then it's farther away. Not recommended for hunting; it's difficult to holdover when you can't see the dot because it falls in open air above the target. Apart from the high cost to buy them, the only other disadvantage laser pointers have is that the dot can be difficult to see if it is projected onto a brightly lit target. Laserlyte T-2000 laser sight http://laserlyte.com/aimingdevices.html Beamshot 1001 Ultra laser sight http://www.appliedlaser.com/beam.htm ($110) ============================== TACTICAL LIGHTS ============================== Get some 1" scope rings from x-mart. Use the same 3/4" heater hose you used for the moderator. Cut 2 pieces of hose the same width as the scope rings. Slip the 2 hose rings over a mini-flashlight (small AA type) and put it inside the scope rings. After you tighten the rings they will compress the rubber hose and hold the light very solidly. Lights that fit the inside of scope rings: CMG Infinity LED Task Light (2 AA & 1 red LED) Item Number: 29650 $14 Probably too dim but burns 41 hours and is aluminum. http://www.campmor.com/ Optronics NightBlaster LED Headlamp (3 AAA & 3 red LEDs) Item Number: HL-403R $10 Brighter but probably only lasts 20 hours and it's plastic. http://www.optronicsinc.com/headlamps.htm Maglite Mini-mag $10 (2 AA & Krypton lamp) Brightest and aluminum but probably only burns an hour or two. http://www.maglite.com/product.asp?psc=2AACELL&pt=R X-mart or http://www.campmor.com/ The mini-mag has an accessory kit that contains a red filter (AM2A016) $5. http://www.orderoutdoors.com/accs.htm High power varmint lights http://www.optronicsinc.com/varmint.htm Scope mounted varmint lights: The Tracer and Nite Tracker are 2 that are available here in the US . Both around $60-$70 .Come with rechargable battery , charger and red lens . The Nite Tracker battery can be mounted on the stock or worn on a belt . Dorcy makes an LED light that is waterproof and burns for 200 hours (4 AA & 1 white LED) - Walmart $8 http://www.dorcy.com/images/Dorcy%20Images/New%20Technology/41-2498.jpg ============================== FAVORITE AMMO TYPES ============================== #1 Crossman Premier 14.3 #2 Beeman Kodiac 21.1 #3 Beeman Crow Magnum 18.2 Crossman Domes 14.3 (from x-mart) also work well Pelletman http://ns.connext.net/~pellets/mywebsite001.htm Pellet Testing http://www.hsv.tis.net/~ispellan/PelletTest01.html Mac1 has an annual pellet and lube sale in April http://www.mac1airgun.com/ ============================== PELLET HOLDERS ============================== K-Mart coin purse. It has a snap closure. The top is a frame shaped like an upside down horseshoe. It costs $4.00 and has a vinyl interior so lubed pellets don't stain your shirt. The cord around your neck is black shoelace and is attached to the coin purse with small black plastic wire ties wrapped around the "horsehoe" frame. The wire ties are the kind that go click, click as you reduce the diameter. It never spills pellets, even if you forget to snap it shut. It comes in black, brown, gold, and copper. ------------------------------ Make a ammo holder out of several little clips out of .5 centimeter rubber hose epoxied onto velcro strips and placed near the breach. ------------------------------ Not only a pellet holder, but a one-at-a-time dispenser (.22 caliber only though). "Smint" brand mint candy dispensers will hold 50-60 .22 cal. Premiers, and pop them out (usually) one at a time. You can even mount one in an old pager holder (with dispensing chute facing downwards, of course) and when hooked to your belt, a simple push on the top of the Smint box will pop one pellet into your hand, extremely handy while you're out hunting in the woods. ------------------------------ http://www.pelletholder.com/ ------------------------------ Beeman Pellet Belt Pouch http://www.beeman.com/pellacc.htm ============================== PELLET TRAP ============================== The best pellet trap IMO is a used electrical box. Go to wholesale electrical supply house and ask for monkey S**T. AKA duct seal. Scrounge an electrical disconnect box and line the edges with 1" pine (this will give you something to pin the target to). Pack the box tight with the duct seal. Few traps will stand up to 20+ foot lbs the rifle is capable of. ------------------------------ I bought a case of ten bricks of putty and added three more bricks a week back. I added more when I started getting a bulge in the backside of the back panel after shooting my 22 cal Talon, on full power, a bunch at the same bull. The putty seems to last forever and is great at stopping pellets. It seems to be an oil based putty, kinda like a course, grey, very stiff silly putty. The ballistic putty is GB Duct Seal, found in the electrical department. There are five different Home Depots in driving distance of my house, and all five have the stuff stashed in a different place in the electrical department. Most of the help there will only give you a dumb look when you ask for stuff unless you get one, by off chance, that knows about electrician's supplies (the electricians refer to it as Monkey $h!t, you understand after working with it). DON'T let them send you to another department, it is in the electrical department, sometimes by the panel boxes, sometimes by the connectors, and sometimes by the conduit fittings. Good luck! The 17 cal pellets from my IZH 46M penetrate about a quarter inch to the back of the pellet skirt, using wadcutters. My Talon, 22 cal, at full power and close range, penetrates about an inch to the back of the pellet skirt, using CPs. ------------------------------ I found the Duct seal from HD to be much softer than the stuff you can get from a real electrical supply shop. And, around here, they sell it at the same price. I also found I saved a few lb's of trap weight by using the "good stuff." ------------------------------ http://www.electricaldeals.com/html/prodresults.php3?Category=IN1&Subcategory=DS1 They charge $5.95 for delivery, and you can buy 5 lb blocks for $7.44 each, which equates to about $1.50 per pound, before shipping, but if I order 20 lbs, it's still cheaper than Lowes by a bunch! ------------------------------ DuctSeal For Sale Online http://www.usahardware.com/inet/webSession/store/dept-3/department/dept-3/item/30230/icn/20-543165/lookin/30230/g_b_electrical/ds-130.htm ------------------------------ Rubber Backstop? www.rbrubber.com/ballistic.htm ------------------------------ Truck Mud Flaps last forever but where to buy? ------------------------------ Wooden Trap Design http://home.earthlink.net/~jpcraig/airgun/pellet_trap.html ============================== LUBES & GREASES ============================== Best Lube? Leading of the barrel is caused by excessive friction/wrong lube (Premiers). Replace lube (wash off with WD-40) with FP-10 or CRC Penlub: Penlube is clear, light, not grease, not flammable and contains molybdenum disulphide particles. The moly particles remain on the pellets surface after the others components have evaporated. http://www.funsupply.com/airguns/airgunleading.html ------------------------------ whiscombe honey - 2 parts of Hoppe's gun oil and one part of STP Oil treatment. Mix it up and use 5 drops on 500 pellets and your accuracy will improve too. ------------------------------ FP-10 has been used by many for years. as a pellet luber and gun protector without any problems noted by the "field target group". FP-10 is used by some because of the "magic MT-10" in it, what the heck it is NO ONE knows, but it works well. As a pellet lube I've washed my pellets with WD-40 and dried on paper towels, this of course after "sizing". Each to their own and you'll hear many stories as to whats best. I use CLP "Break Free" to clean and lube my air-guns. I've tried a mixture of CLP and WD-40 with good results too, for lubing pellets. You DO NOT WANT TO USE WD-40 to clean your guns. WD-40 is a water displacer and light/lube, not an oil. Gary Barnes pointed out that using WD-40 (as a lube on your gun) will help to "rust your guns" kinda like "blueing agents" left on your gun barrel. ------------------------------ Here is the solution to all your hard to find Slick50 One-Lube woes..... MSC Industrial Supply. I went to the store in Atlanta and brought six cans of the stuff. http://www.mscdirect.com/aboutmsc/loc_home.shtml enter the parts number # 00253492 in the quick search engine. ------------------------------ DIVERS GREASE You can find pure silicone gel in the plumbing dept. of Lowes or Home Depot. It's not divers grease, but it's non-flamable and like 96% pure silicone. It costs $3 for about an ounce or so. It's in the repair section at Lowes. http://www.gunk.com/SiliconeGrease.htm ============================== EXPECTED POWER AND NUMBER OF SHOTS ============================== (195 bar/2800 psi-148 bar/2000 psi) Crossman Premier pellets shoot around 850 FPS with 60-80 shots, Crossman Premier pellets shoot around 730 FPS with 100 shots. Kodiaks at 760 fps with over 30 shots. Keep tank between 155 and 180 BAR (2250-2610 PSI) (1 BAR=14.5 PSI) for best accuracy. 1. Seat the pellet EXACTLY the same way every time. 2. DO NOT Cant the rifle. (B-Square level helps) 3. Silicon lube the O-ring inside the valve cover. ============================== VELOCITY OF 100 SHOTS ON A SINGLE FILL ============================== Crossman Premier 14.3 grain Tophat at 1.5 turns Power wheel at 6-1 (No quad seal?) Filled to 205 BAR (as recomended on the AirForce web site) STDEV 751.6 err2 err2 754.0 753.4 1.25 755.8 740.5 718.0 753.4 737.4 15.12 781.5 751.4 760.5 781.7 779.0 13.99 781.2 802.8 757.1 802.0 770.9 19.83 805.0 788.9 787.3 768.4 799.3 14.02 815.5 805.8 785.4 814.1 775.4 17.95 798.5 802.9 807.2 812.0 811.7 5.80 (182 bar?) 809.7 813.0 800.6 813.5 808.2 5.19 812.6 809.1 808.7 804.0 809.5 3.08 807.3 808.5 808.8 803.1 798.5 4.40 798.7 805.4 805.6 805.0 799.8 3.36 800.4 794.9 800.9 798.8 798.2 2.37 798.9 793.5 792.4 795.7 794.1 2.52 793.5 793.9 790.9 790.4 787.8 2.49 788.8 789.3 784.7 782.0 781.6 3.65 781.1 783.6 781.8 782.7 777.1 2.51 778.4 776.7 773.5 774.8 774.3 1.99 770.6 771.3 769.6 767.9 768.3 1.45 764.6 768.1 765.7 763.2 756.7 4.28 759.3 757.8 757.3 749.4 759.0 4.09 I stopped at 100 shots because I was getting bored, the rifle was getting VERY loud, and I was dreading pumping the tank back up. As it turns out, the tank had dropped to 130 BAR. That will be 150 strokes minimum. At 12 yards, the POI dropped about 3/4 of an inch from start to finish. This was due in part to the velocity drop and the attention drop. Consistancy was pretty good after the first 30 shots. I think I will be filling to something less than 200 BAR as the recomended fill pressure seems to result is too much shot to shot variation with this particular setup. 205-130 BAR = 75 BAR divided by 100 shots = .75 BAR/shot 30 poor first shots x .75 BAR = 22.5 BAR 205 fill - 22.5 = 182.5 BAR ============================== PELLET ACCURACY & POWER TESTING ============================== Pressure was 180 bar fill. Gun shot with bipod and sand bag in back indoors. Scope was Tasco Mil-Dot 6-24 at 10x parallax adjusted before shooting. The pellets were lubed with the Slick 50 spray and the barrel was cleaned before the test. Accuracy was best from 175 bar to about 150 bar. Tank was used for about 20 shots and changed to a fresh tank at 180 bar. 5 shot groups done at 10m for at power wheel settings of 3, 5 and 7. The pellets were The Copperhead sold in 175 packages. They are domes that look like Primiers and are sold all over. The Field Target Special. The Beeman Kodiak. The 14.3 gr Crosman Primier. The light wadcutter Dynamit Nobel Hobby pellet. Results: The Dynamit Nobel Hobby pellets at about 11.4 gr shot the poorest groups. There are more fliers. They are the cheapest, though. All pellets shot better groups with more power and the Hobby pellets showed the most improvement as the power wheel went up. The best were the copperhead domes which shot one hole groups at 5 and 7 turns. They were the second cheapest, but the easiest to buy locally. The Premiers shot the second best groups with the Kodiaks and the FTS close behind with nice triangular groups. If you want to shoot at 5 turns to save air the Copperhead domes are the best. So far my best 5 shot groups at 40 yards both sitting and bench rest are: .320 c-c sitting position and .270 c-c bench. There was no speed improvement past 7 on the power wheel and the gun just got louder. Lighter pellets needed a lower power wheel setting to achieve the same velocity (about 2.5 from the lightest to the heaviest.) It appears that the maximum speed is 860 FPS regardless of pellet weight and wheel setting. Tank pressures higher than 180 bar result in slower shots at any given wheel setting. Turning up the wheel all the way with higher tank pressures hurts grouping and speeds top-out the same anyway. Using a Mil-Dot scope is a good idea because you will need to remember the different holdovers as your tank empties, which can vary over a 2-3 mil range. If you zero the scope at 165 bar, it will shoot about 2 mils low when full at 180 bar, then come to your zero and then shoot low again when you need to refill. Hunting requires using the pressure you zeroed your scope at before you go out. The scope is mounted high so you need a Mil-Dot scope to adjust your aim for range more, too. ------------------------------ These guns seem to vary quite a bit from one to another when it comes to velocity vs 'power dial setting. For what its worth, the following numbers were obtained from an SS, five shot strings, indoors at 68 degrees F, each with the same tank pressure. Power dial settings are full revolutions from the low end 'stop'. Power // 12gr // 14.3gr // 21.3gr // 30gr. Dial // Hobby // Premier // Kodiak // Eley Mag 8 // 834fps // 808fps // 736fps // 576fps rev // 4fps es // 5fps es // 7fps es // 14fps es 13 // 848fps // 824fps // 747fps // 611fps (max) // 6fps es // 13fps es //12fps es //16fps es ============================== MAC1 O-RING OR QUAD-SEAL ============================== Temp: 65 F Pellet: CP 14.3gr Fill: 185bar No Quad seal from Mac1 1st 10 shot string HI: 842.9 LO: 799.1 AVE MV: 820.3 AVE ME: 21.3FPE Spead: 43.8fps 2nd 10 shot string HI: 844.8 LO: 810.8 AVE MV: 828.6 AVE ME: 21.8FPE Spread: 34fps Now with the Quad seal that goes under the tophat from Mac1 airgun. Also, the tank was topped off the 185bar again before the next shot strings. With Quad seal 1st 10 shot string HI: 832.7 LO: 817.2 AVE MV: 821.7 AVE ME: 21.4fpe Spread: 15.5fps 2nd 10 shot string HI: 827.3 LO: 811.7 AVE MV: 818.9 AVE ME: 21.2fpe Spread: 15.6fps As you can see the spread went from 43fps and 34fps before the seal to a consistent 15fps spread after. I would highly recommend this seal for obvious reasons. However, this does make the gun much louder. ============================== MAC1 SETUP http://www.mac1airgun.com/ ============================== I do three things to a Talon when I prep it; I put a quad seal behind the valve head and set the gap so the valve doesn't flutter when it fires and the leakage between valve head and tank are minimized. I fully leak check the gun. Finally I set the hammer adjustment up at around 4-5 so we can get a greater number of shots within a narrow velocity range. (It climbs fps across the first 300 psi pressure drop on a freshly charged tank (2700 psi). Then it starts to go down (fps) slowly till it reaches the velocity you started at. If you set it up for 24 fpe in the long barrel gun and 20 in the short barrelled gun you'll get around 60 shots per charge within a fairly narrow velocity window (30 fps). Most of the adjustments for power should be done on the tank valve rather than the dial on the gun which changes the ideal charge pressures. Once you have those set so you maximize the shot count you should leave that adjustment alone. The suppressed version of this gun is not that quiet. It is certainly less accurate, less velocity, gets fewer shots at the same power, and is no shorter than the long barrel gun. Later Tim http://www.mac1airgun.com/ I talked to Tim at Mac-1 regarding setting up a Talon and it's velocity curve, here is his reply... > Your web site at http://www.mac1airgun.com/aftalon.html talks about > setting the velocity of the Talon. Specifically... > --------------------------- > "The performance of the Stealth straight from the box is around 35 ft' lb. in > long barrel and 30 ft' lb. in short barrel configuration. You may get 25 > shots. It won't go that high anymore. They are lucky to hit 25fpe in the SS model and 28fpe in the long barrel currently. > At Mac1 we usually set them up to get 70 shots at around 25 ft. lb.. with > long and 20 ft. lb.. with short barrel. The best method to regulate these > is a combo of dampening striker and reducing the hammer spring enough to > bring the fill max to the far side of the bell shaped curve rather than the > middle. As stock these go up in velocity till 3400 psi which doesn't allow > us to take advantage of both sides of the curve. With a 2900 psi charge > pressure max the gun gets 70 consistent shots per charge." > --------------------------- > > QUESTION 1 - How are you dampening the striker? I use a quad seal. It costs $1. On the current versions there is no inset to put the seal within so we cut a recess in the inside of the top hat. > QUESTION 2 - The 20 foot pounds you refer to are with 14 grain pellets? I was usually using 14.5 grain FTS. It does 22fpe with 21.2 grain Kodiaks and 26.5fpe with 28.5 grain Korean domes. I just did one today and it got over 65 shots from the SS action (12" barrel) at 2000-2600 psi or 138-180 bar (1 BAR=14.5 PSI) shooting Kodiaks in the 710 fps range. The dial on the gun was set at 5. The top hat was cut for the 007 quad seal to sit in behind it in a .050" recess. The gap between the top hat and the valve body is about .125". > QUESTION 3 - Any other set-up tips? Each gun needs to be fiddled with till the hammer spring tension is such that the top of the charge drops the velocity a bit (30-40 fps). I like a gun that will do 730 fps with Kodiaks at 2400 psi and it will do 700fps at 2000 and 2600 psi. When you find that balance you get the shot count way up and the noise way down. The lighter the pellet you choose the fewer shots you'll get. Probably get 50 shots with CP's, FTS or superdomes instead of 65 with the heavier stuff. The heavier stuff retains energy way more effectively, makes more power, less noise and it groups better. It will do 650 with 28.5 grain Korean heaviers for the max downrange hit and the least noise. You can make power or noise. Your choice. ============================== NEWBIE QUESTIONS & ANSWERS ============================== Q #1):_SEALS/TOP HAT_: Out of the box, before shooting and per the post on 3/11/02 *SECURE TOPHAT*, should I have a "quad" seal inserted under the top hat? Should I lube the two "O" rings in the breech with the divers silicone grease? Should I apply Lock Tight to the top hat threads? Should I apply anything to the air bottle threads? Unaware of the condition the rifle arrives in, is there a need to reapply any lube/grease/dry moly to the slide or any other internal parts? I am a fan of preventative maintenance and I am trying to avoid any of the problems (loss of air...) that other owners have had that I read about. A #1 Yes, Yes, No, No, & No ------------------------------ Q #2):_HAMMER/HAMMER SPRING_: Not that I will rush to change right away, but per the post on 12/16/01 *SLEDGE HAMMER*, does the SS need a heavier (brass) hammer to ensure consistency? If so, where do I get and how much will it cost/cost to install? Does it need heavier hammer springs? If so, where do I get and how much does it cost/cost to install? As preventive maintenance, per the post on 11/6/01 *HAMMER SPRING LUBE*, should I apply Tri Flow, Kyritex or this dry moly substance mentioned to the hammer spring to avoid possibe misfires? Would this dry moly product be the best for the hammer and the breech slide? A #2 Heavier hammers mean longer valve duration. Only really applicable with heaviest pellets and calibers. Hammer spring tension should be adjusted so the peak speed is at 2500-2600 psi. Hammer spring does not need lube. PCP's in general don't need much maintenance besides barrel cleaning. Crown Saver is King. ------------------------------ Q #3):_TRIGGER_: I'm assuming that the new improved trigger pull issue will be on the rifle that I'm soon to purchase. Just curious, what was the trigger pull before the mod. and what is it now? When did they mod.? A #3 Trigger change?. News to me. Safety change yes. The trigger is unremarkeable. ------------------------------ Q #4):_SILENCE IS GOLDEN_: I have read the numerous posts and responses on how to make SS more quiet. I can't picture the mod. but will consider when the rifle gets here and after I have shot it. Hope it's quieter than the Benjamin. I'm sure that when I decide to mod. I'll post again with a HELP!! It'll probably take a phone call with step by step instructions. A #4 Pass ------------------------------ Q #5):_SCOPE/MOUNTS_: I'm leaning towards the Tasco Mil Dot scope. With the proper calculations when sighting in, this scope seems to solve the issues with the close in shot (10 yards from my back door to the bird house) and the distance shot (no more than 50 yards in town). Haven't decided on scope power yet. Do I need to take additional steps in securing the scope to the rings/mounts? Can someone explain to me the difference between droop mounts, high mounts, rings, scope base, bubble level (read that this helps keep the crosshairs in line) and how they should be positioned on the dovetail? I grew up in a shot gun family so I don't know a lot about rifles and their accessories. I've tried to understand from the web but I need the "Dummy" version. Per the post on 2/4/02 *GENERAL TALON QUESTIONS*, how does one barrel droop more than another? A #5 Mounts must be high to get proper position behind scope. If your scope doesn't have gobs of adjust (3-4 inches at 10 yards) you won't get on target without 30-40 minutes of droop. Droop is the compounding of high scopes, sucking gravity, and misalignment of rail to barrel. This gun almost always needs 40 minutes of adjustment. ------------------------------ Q #6:_PELLETS_: I've read that the most popular pellet types for the SS are the Beeman Kodiaks, Beeman FTS, Beeman Crow Magnums, H&N Diabolo Baracudas (A.K.A. Kodiaks?)and the Crosman Premiers. Since I will try all of these to see what does best, is there way/place to purchase a smaller quantity of these for testing purposes? Trying to avoid any unneccessary unwanted pellet inventory. Which of these is best for penetrating starlings and sparrows? Should I use a pellet "seat" when loading a pellet? Per the post on 3/3/02 *LUBING PELLETS*,when lubing pellets, is the process to empty the pellets onto a towel drench them and the can/box with WD-40, wipe clean and apply this FP-10 or Whiscomb oil I've read about? Should I avoid any of the FP-10 or Whiscomb oil from getting inside the pellet? Who's made (homemade or store bought)the best pellet holder/dispenser? A #6 The more power you ask for the more pellet weight you should use. Light ammo out of short barreled PCP's just makes noise. FTS for medium power levels and Kodiaks for big power. Pellet lube can extend barrel cleaning intervals. The only stuff for springers is the KryTech (Mac1 Pellet Wax). ------------------------------ Q #7):_GRIP_: I like the idea of adding the Hogue Handall Jr. per the post on 2/28/02 HOLD SENSITIVITY A #7 ? ------------------------------ Q #8):_BUTT PLATE_: Seems that I must be equipped with a machine shop and the know how to attach this Morgan Butt plate. Any suggestions on this addition? A #8 go to a pro for any machine work you want done right. ------------------------------ Q #9):_TARGETS_: Already have Crosman 850 pellet trap which has the two internal curtains to slow the pellet down before it hits the metal back. If it doesn't hold up, there was some good info. on how to build a box and pack it with duct seal. A #9 A crosman trap is for BB's. You tear it up. You need an outers trap or go to a welder and have him make something up. A #9 The best pellet trap IMO is a used electrical box. Go to wholesale electrical supply house and ask for monkey S**T. AKA duct seal. This is the heavy gray stuff you won't find in Home Depot. Scrounge an electrical disconnect box and line the edges with 1" pine (this will give you something to pin the target to). Pack the box tight withthe duct seal. Few traps will stand up to 20+ foot lbs the rifle is capable of. A #9 Put together a decent pellet trap before your Talon arrives. Your going to destroy your Crossman trap and do damage to whatever is behind it. I use a home made silent trap with 2" of duct seal throughout and an additional inch along the centerline. I also use a 2' x 4' piece of 1" plywood as a back stop in case I completely miss the trap. This hasn't happened since I put up the plywood but there's a hole in my bedroom door to remind me why I need it. A #9 For outdoor use, a paper plate and a plastic clotheshanger with clips on the bottom rail works great! Attach the plate to the clips and hang it on a tree limb. It weighs enough not to blow around in the breeze. ------------------------------ Q #10):_SCUBA TANK_: I have decided to fill my air bottle from a scuba tank. Familiar with diving, there is scuba shop nearby and it just seems easier (less effort)to fill, however, I realize the increased cost of the adaptor, tank (parents have one they'll give me to have checked out). A #10 Primary Air Source should be a dive tank. I've done a lot of valve jobs to guns guys pump. It is great for my business for you guys to feed these guns rust but the guns don't dig it. It seems that there is no problem with using both but pump air only is bad. Worse is pump air from a pump that has a huge line on it because it sees far more moisture than a low volume set-up sees. More pumps means more moisture and some pumps have three-five times the volume in the line as others. The absolutely worse case is the pumped only gun in a moist environment with a large volume line and a guy that won't ever clean the thing out. All you pumpers ought to do yourself a huge favor and take the base off the pump group and clean out the sludge. That is what will be in your gun if you don't. ------------------------------ Q #11: What should I buy besides the rifle? Short List IMHO you should consider this list as extremely basic: 1.- GOOD Adjustable Scope Bases.- RWS C, Beeman, B-Square, whatever, just make sure they are GOOD. 2.- GOOD Scope.- The Talon can be an incredibly accurate gun, make sure you get a good scope: Swift, Bushnell, Weaver, Leupold, Horus, any scope as long as it is GOOD. Mil-Dots are incredibly fun with this gun. 3.- Carbon Fiber Tank.- The amount of money and hassle it will save you in the long run with the valves and the innards are worth it. Besides, you can run'em at 4,500 PSI and get almost 20 refills from the intermediate size tank. 4.- A good sized grip.- a number of solutions are good, from Pachmayr's grip fillers to AR-16 grips with adapters. Even though the Talon is a PCP, it is hold sensitive because the trigger finger is way out of the recoil axis. A grip that fits is essential to accurate shooting and ONLY accurate guns are interesting. 5.- A Good recoil pad.- Not because the Talon kicks, it does, but very little. You need to adjust the pull length to YOUR size. Since the trigger hand is positioned so much out of line with the axis of the gun, if you place it at an angle, it will only make the gun MORE hold sensitive. I had to put in a good 1/2" spacer and I am not a tall guy. Cradle the buttpad in the hollow of your flexed arm and see where your trigger finger is, the end joint of your trigger finger should be right at the trigger. A Morgan Adjustable recoil pad adds one more degree of adjustability to the gun. Define whether you want to shoot with speed or with accuracy, if you want speed, get a flat/Shotgun pad, if you want accuracy, get a curved/rifle pad. The Morgan adjustable will also help fit your face to the Tank/Scope dimensions. 6.- If you do not know how to shoot with a sling on your wrist, get a bipod, get the one of approppriate length to suit your favourite field shooting position. Prone bipods are shorter than the ones designed for shooting sitting. 7.- Shooting level.- The Talon is cant sensitive, get a level if your scope does not have an integrated level. It does not have to be electronic, they are nice though!, just get a level. Now for the innards: 8.- Aluminum Hammer.- it gives you a more consistent and solid shot. Aluminum hammers should be teflon coated. 9.- Conical spring behind the Top-Hat or a Quad seal. This ensures that the top hat has a definite stop, closes the valve faster and improves consistency and efficiency. 10.- Extra Barrels, get as many as you want calibers to shoot them in. If you have a Talon SS, get an extra front cap to go with the longer barrels and keep the original cap to go with the SS barrels. If you or your application is sound sensitive, get shrouded barrels, If not, get normal barrels. Beyond this list you can get red-dots, laser sights, night vision sights, hunting flashlights, pellet holders, camo socks, and any number of "other gadgets". ============================== FX PUMP SETUP ============================== The FX pump comes with a small teflon spacer that is placed in the 3/8 inch pump hole before you screw the hose on. Use teflon tape at the hose/pump and at the hose/adapter to prevent leaks. Open the pump release valve before removing the tank. ============================== AIRTANK FILL FORMULA ============================== How many fills will I get from an scuba tank? Assuming that temperature before and after the filling operation remains constant, and that the smaller bottle (talon=490cc) is empty before each fill --- and that there are no leaks in the transfer operation: For a reasonable approximation: 1. Divide the volume of the large bottle (1 ft^3 = 28316.846592 cc) by the volume of the large bottle PLUS the volume of the small bottle. This produces the expansion factor. This is a number smaller than 1. 2. Multiply the expansion factor by the initial (large bottle) pressure to get the pressure remaining in the large bottle. 3. Do this repeatedly for each fill number and then plot a graph with pressure in psi on the vertical axis -- over a range from 3000 psi to 2500 psi. Plot the number of fills on the horizontal axis. For a 19 ft^3 (538,020.1 cc) tank use to fill a 400 cc bottle, the first four values look like this: 3000 ==========> 2997.8 psi at fill number 1 2997.8 psi ======> 2995.6 psi at fill number 2 2995.6 psi ======> 2993.3 psi at fill number 3 2996.3 psi ======> 2991.1 psi at fill number 4 You should be able to get more than 40 fills in the 400 cc bottle from a 19 ft^3 tank before the pressure drops to 2900 psi in the larger tanks. The results will be very different if the large and small tank are similar in size. Nevertheless the two steps above will still hold. ============================== BARREL CLEANING ============================== JB paste is popular among competitive centerfire shooters. The abrasive compound is designed to be harder than copper but softer than steel. It has NEVER been known to harm barrels. Copper fouling kills target barrels over time and is difficult to clean out without abrasives. Abrasives such as Clover brand or lapping compounds are meant to polish (wear) steel. JB will not do this to your barrel. Never compare JB to lapping compound. Unless you are shooting copper clad pellets, you don't need it. If you notice any lead buildup that a nylon bore brush will not remove easily, don't go out and buy a bronze brush. These can wear on your rifling over time. Here's the ticket, theres a penetrating oil on the market called Kroil. Its like wd-40 but much better. It "creeps" under lead and copper and floats it out of your rifling. It's nonabrasive and has a signature smell like wd-40 does, only different. It comes in an orange can, either a spray can or in larger bulk cans. Needless to say, NEVER clean from the muzzle end without a bore guide. Either use a pull through string type jag or rod and clean from the breech end, always in the direction of the pellet. This will keep your muzzle crown from wearing and opening up your groups. You can call Midway Supply and order some if you can't find it locally. Their number is (800)243-3220 or www.midwayusa.com ============================== INITIAL SETTINGS ============================== Close the top hat on the air tank, open it between 1 1/2 turns to 2 turns (until the ping goes away), tighten the set screw with an .050 hex-wrench and leave it there. Now set the power wheel on the barrel to 6. You may want to use purple Loc-tite 222MS on the set screw. The blue Loc-tite is meant for larger screws and may not break free. Very light pellets will supposedly get up to 1000 fps. I get about 850 fps with Crossman Premiers and more like 750 with Beeman Kodiaks. Cranking the power wheel up to 12 really doesn't buy you much with the 12 inch barrel. I find that anything over 8 results in more noise but no more velocity with the Kodiaks. A setting of 6 seems to get about the maximum velocity with the lighter CP's. Low power - Screw the adjustment cap all the way in, then screw is out 1/4 turn. Lock it in place with the locking screw. This setting will give the lowest velocity that the rifle can sustain consistently. Medium power - Screw the adjustment cap all the way in, then screw it out 3/4 turn. Lock it in place with the locking screw. This will give good velocity and is perhaps the point at which the rifle is most accurate, especially with the pellets weighing under 15 grains. High power - Screw the adjustment cap all the way in, then screw it out 1-1/2 turns. Lock it in place. This will give the highest velocity the rifle is capable of. ============================== USING THE TALON ============================== 1.- Go to the top of the index page of the forum. On the left hand side, there is a button for Talon Pics and Schematics. Go there. Read it thoroughly. Print it and keep it for future reference. http://alpinetek.netfirms.com/guns/talon/stealthtuning/ 2.- The filling clamp is screwed into the outlet of the Axxssor or FX pump, the tank is screwed directly to the clamp. You pump. End of story. Do NOT exceed nominal pressure of the tank. It has a rupture disk and it is not fun to have it rupture. 3.- NEVER use CO2 in a Talon. O-Rings will bulge and the gun will be rendered inoperable. Air is mostly Nitrogen, so there should not be any problem using N2 (nitrogen), but it is easier and cheaper to just use air. It seems that most Talons provide best initial accuracy when filled to something between 2,800 PSI's and 2,950 PSI's, try to find your gun's sweet spot. 4.- Talons are adjustable, they have TWO adjustments, one in the in-line (top-hat) valve on the air tank, and another in the wheel that turns in the barrel shroud, do not be afraid to experiment with this last one. To fiddle with the top-hat, wait till you are more familiar with the gun. 5.- To load, you cock the hammer by pushing the bolt forward. The safety is automatic and you put it off by pushing the red safety lever forward. Talons are powerful and silent, the quietness of the gun belies its power. USE EXTREME CAUTION. Only take off the safety when you are ready to fire. After cocking, the barrel chamber is exposed, insert a pellet into it, close the bolt backwards and give it a small twist either right or left to lock it. Aim, take off the safety and fire. ============================== PING ============================== Hi guys, after the little debate below about the ping noise, I found out where exactly it comes from. With the top hat set at factory spec., you will notice that the bolt system rests just off the main body of the gun. Now I spun my top hat out to 2 exact turns from bottom. The bolt now engages the main body with a slight resistance. After many shots fired in this manner with the internal goodies removed and installed as well with the British goodie threaded on and off. The gun now is vertually silent. The striking of a lighter or a pen seems loud as compared to what the gun's report is now. And after over 500 rounds, I have not heard a single ping. Now with the new modification with the hammer being replaces with a hammer machined out of chromoly steel. With top hat set @ 2 turns and dial set at 8 (allen screw) & 0 (fine tune), velocity was 1018 for a shot count of of 32 at this speed then velocity dropped to 1013 until the 40th shot, then dropped at a consistant 1 fps until the 51 shot then started to drop radically as the pressure level from the tank only yeilded 61 shots. ------------------------------ 1) if the twang of the hammer spring at lower power settings annoys you as much as it annoyed me here's what to do ----> Cut out a 3" by 1" piece of 0.010 plastic shim stock (availible from MSC) wrap it around the spring and insert back in. up to 0.016 works, but the thicker stuff will affect velocities. For best results turn the power wheel to max and back off. This will slide the shim closer to the middle of the stroke for max. effectiveness. I lubed lightly the inside of the shim, but that's probably not necessary. ============================== POWER WHEEL SETTINGS ============================== Played with the 'power wheel' tonight found very little variation as others have claimed. Strange thing is the CMs will reduce velocity with power wheel turned down from about 850 fps at '12' setting, down to about 715 fps at the '3' setting. The heavier Kodiaks give much louder muzzle pop at any setting than the CMs. I can only assume the heavier pellet gives more resistance to building pressure, and actually causes the valve to stay open longer. I get less velocity change with the Kodiaks as the power wheel is turned up or down. ------------------------------ I was very dissapointed to find the power wheel has virtually no effect on velocity on my Talon. What it does seem to affect is shot to shot variation and noise level. I have lubed the O rings in the chamber with divers silicone and I'm filling the bottle to 200 bar. I'm also lubricating the pellets with FP-10. At low settings like 2 or 3, I get wild variations from shot to shot. I had some idea that this might be the case based on others posts but it was impressive to see for myself. Adjusting the top hat down may help at these lower power settings. What was dissapointing were the low velocities. The top hat is out 1 1/2 turns and I'm getting 650 fps with CM's, about 730 fps with CP's, and about 700 fps with Kodiaks. That's with the power wheel set anywhere between 4 and 12. The setting of the wheel has virtually no effect on velocity. ------------------------------ I spent the last several hours shooting at various power wheel settings through the chrono. Here is the result. The tank valve was returned to 1.5 turns out, which actually resulted in a wider velocity range including a higher top-end. Pellet choice was Crosman Premier 14.3gr. The deviation seems excessive until just over 800 fps. Wheel 2-6 (center of hex nut) 314.8 424.6 317.8 391.7 384.8 402.7 397.3 393.0 416.4 391.4 (Avg 383.5, Std Dev 35.5) Wheel 4-6 534.5 556.0 532.4 486.7 523.8 505.8 537.3 530.4 514.0 520.9 (Avg 524.2, Std Dev 18) Wheel 6-6 635.4 627.2 597.3 611.7 619.5 570.6 616.1 619.2 594.6 607.2 (Avg 609.9, Std Dev 17.6) Wheel 8-6 661.1 684.4 689.2 717.6 729.3 704.2 694.0 729.6 720.8 756.5 (Avg 708.7, Std Dev 26.2) Wheel 10-6 839.7 839.3 835.0 840.1 836.9 844.4 836.6 840.9 842.0 838.5 (Avg 839.3, Std Dev 2.6) Wheel 12-6 850.6 853.1 860.3 857.5 862.0 858.2 860.1 852.9 857.6 857.6 (Avg 857, Std Dev 3.5) Wheel MAX 868.2 865.2 866.4 863.0 866.6 868.0 863.3 859.5 867.6 862.7 (Avg 865.1, Std Dev 2.7) ============================== INTERNAL COMPONENT SPECS ============================== Hammer is made of black delrin weight 262.3 grains or .5995 ounces. Spring end retainer made of steel black oxide coated weight 116.5 grains or .2663 ounces. Total sliding weight less spring 378.8 grains or .8658 ounces. A hammer made out of aluminum would approx double the hammer weight. The power adjuster piece (ie the one you turn) is made out off aluminum. The internal piece that preloads the spring is made of black delrin. This is a weak piece because of the cap screw that reads power level can easily be striped out during assembly/disassembly. ============================== REPLACEMENT BARRELS ============================== While measuring I noticed that nothing actually rides on the barrel (ie the hammer or spring asssembly). Every thing rides on the frame/shroud. It looks like a barrel measuring .600 on the diameter would fit into existing frame/spring/hammer assembly, it would require a new bolt cover and seals of correct size (the one you move over the hat) to put in a .32 cal barrel ============================== BREECH/BOLT REMOVAL ============================== First you have to slide of the rubber grip off the cocking handle. Then use an allen wrench (I can't remember what size) to remove the cocking handle itself. There are 2 ways to remove the bolt piece. The first way is to remove the pistol grip, the foregrip and the plate which retains the safety and the 4 trigger-related springs. Then you can access the set screw for the locking ring that the tank screws into. The bolt will then slide out to the rear. If you havn't already guessed, this way is a royal P.I.T.A. The safety mechanism is especially aggravating to put back in correctly. The second way is to remove the end-cap, end cap retaining ring, the barrel, the power adjuster, spring, and hammer. Then all you have to do is depress the hammer catch and the bolt will slide out the front. Getting it back in requires a little more fiddling with the hammer catch since the bevel faces towards the rear and the bolt abuts the catch at a right angle. ============================== TRIGGER MOD (Older Talons only?) ============================== Just take a lighter and heat the first two springs from the trigger (seen from the trigger). 1 is first stage, other is second stage. Carefull!! start slowly. You can also polish the internals a little. New Talons the trigger assembly is comprised of a small (about 3/4 inch) plastic finger "tab" affixed to a trigger bar which is metal and has a channel cut throught the center of it. The finger pad is attached to the trigger bar by means of an allen screw that goes through the slot (about 1/2 inch) in the bar, and can be moved up and down along the slot. In addition to this, the angle of the finger pad can be changed. I find that the trigger assembly and action is not only extremely adjustable, but light in pull and breaks clean. ============================== ----- AN EASY MODERATOR ---- ============================== From what I have seen on the internet, making an airgun quieter by adding packing material to the shroud is legal as long as this modification can not be removed and used on a rifle. Get 1 foot of high pressure nylon reinforced thin-wall (1/8) vinyl tubing and cut it into 3/4 inch pieces with heavy shears. Ensure that cuts are fairly perpendicular. Slit each piece down one side and trim 1/16 from one edge of the slit until the tubing slides into the barrel shroud without binding. Cut pieces of sticky backed felt into 5/8 x 2.5 inch strips. Apply the felt to the inside of the tubing. Place one section of tubing into the mouth of the shroud. Take one inch fender washers with 1/4 inch center holes and apply felt to one side. Use a hole punch for paper or a 1/4 inch metal tube as a punch to remove center of felt (helps to sharpen or file teeth into the edge). Remove uncut felt hairs with lighter, soldering iron, or just leave? Sand edges of washer until it slides into shroud without binding. Place washer on tubing felt side down (felt towards barrel). Continue stacking alternating pieces of tubing and washers. Very very quiet! ============================== Silencer/Moderator #1 Cut the elastic tube off the top of a long ribbed tube sock. Then use stiff steel screen as a backing material, with a little bit excess for the inside and a lot of excess for the outside. Roll the tube. You should have about 3 layers of wire for the center tube, 4 layers of wire/sock sandwich, and 3 layers of wire for the outside diameter. Slip the mess into the shoud and you get the same sound as if you dry fire into a pillow, it's EXTREMELY quiet. Accuracy isn't a problem and durability has not become an issue. These are rough measurements from my head so bear with me, they'll vary anyway depending on the materials used: Take a strip of stiff screen about 15x4" and a 5x4" sock strip placed 2" from one end and 8" from the other end. 2" for the core, 5" overlapped with sock, and 8" for the outside shell. Roll the entire thing tightly, uniformly from the 2" side, ending at the 8" side. Logic: The airy, ribbed tube sock top is an extremely effective sound dampener (a more dense cloth like felt or burlap wouldn't "breath"- good sound proofing, but not as good dampener). The problem is that it is not durable (you can't simply make a tube sock tube because it would collapse and be pulled out the front by the suction of the pellet). The stiff screen gives the cloth form while having a minimal effect on the cloth's ability to breath. The first 2" form a solid core that won't collapse and is impossible for the cloth to be sucked through. The 5" make up the main volume of the moderator. The final 8" keeps the outside uniform, smoother, takes up the slack of any cloth compression, and makes it easier to trim and fit for your shroud. ------------------------------ Silencer/Moderator #2 Three Ajax spring company #59 compression springs, some 1 1/8 fender washers, bolt and nuts along with a drill, bits and a bench grinder you can reduce the noise to that of a small wrench hitting on a pipe 1) Stuff you'll need: Some packing foam (I used some foam that was used to ship a hard drive in), 2 pieces of wood (preferably 3/8" thick or more),a drill, a hole saw bit with diameter about 1" and a soldering iron. You may substitute some of these items according to how they're used. I got the foam, smashed it between the 2 pieces of wood and drilled through the foam with the hole saw. I smashed the foam between the wood because you can't just drill through foam with a hole saw. You should end up with a roughly cylindrical piece of foam with a hole through the center. Now, make the hole bigger by sticking a hot soldering iron through it. Just make as many as you need and stick them into the chamber. Experiment with different densities of foam. 2) I went to Ace Hardware and bought some rubber grommets, about 1" diameter. They have a hole through the middle roughly 1/4". Use your favorite oil and lube up the inside of the shroud and stick 'em in there. The grommets I bought are shaped so that when you put them in together, multiple "chambers" or spaces of air are formed between the grommets. I could fit 8 or 9 of them in there. I have no access to any machine shop equipment or the like, so I'm limited to everyday materials and simple construction. If anybody has any ideas on how to improve upon these ideas, SHARE THE KNOWLEDGE!!! A lot of people want to know how to make their Talon even better. By the way, both of these "designs" don't affect accuracy. Just today I took out a yellow jacket at about 20 yards using the foam. AMAZING RIFLE. Email me if anyone has more input or questions!! gso100@hotmail.com Eventually, I want to be able to shoot quietly off my balcony at night without getting the cops called on ------------------------------ Silencer/Moderator #3 Mikhail P's testimony seems to be the most impressive results (CO2 pistol level!); specs: 3 chambers @ 1.5" 3/4" heater hose spacers 3 metal washers (isn't that an extra one?) Next one that sounded interesting because it's simple: 3 sections 4" of felt washers then 1" of rubber washers then Remaining space filled with metal washers. Finally an amalgamation of the most "common" moderator that doesn't seem to work that well (according to testimony): 3 chambers in 3:2:1 PVC/Rubber/Aluminum spacers metal/mesh/rubber/felt washers (alone or sandwiched) Other than using the metal fender washers, I also glued the felt pads to them, facing the muzzle. Yes, there is an 'extra' washer. This one goes again the endcap. I have tried with and without the last washer and it seems to make just enough difference for me. The felt is the most important part of the mod. Mine was considerably louder using just metal washers. It was EXTACTLY the same noise level as my chopped b18(louder than normal) but with the felt washers the noise is less than that of my CP88. This is indoor testing, and the talon was set to 1/2 power. It does get louder with the velocity rise, but this is still the quietest I've been able to get it. ------------------------------ Silencer/Moderator #4 While trolling around home depot last nite I found a 50 mesh (fine) and 100 mesh (very fine) screen tube .350 O.D. approx .320 I.D. 3.50 approx long. This item was in the airless paint sprayer parts section it is used to strain paint before it enters the spray gun price for both $7.50. I am going to support both ends in aluminum bushings and fill the middle with sound dampening material fiberglass insulation,felt,open cell foam what ever I can think of to try. ------------------------------ Silencer/Moderator #5 Alright, second try. I leave out my various mishaps, but suffice to say it was hard to find materials in spec w/ tight tolerances... so I decided to go with a mesh design (using Aluminum screen). After about making three mesh washers I gave up (edges kept stabbing me). So I decided to simply wrap the mesh into a tight cylinder, trimmed as necessary to corkscrew it into the shroud (fits mighty tight, but reasonably easy to remove with needle-nose pliers).... Final product from muzzle to cap: 2 rubber washers, 1 nylon 1/4" ID spacer, ~3.75" mesh cylinder 3/8" ID, felt washer 1/4" ID, steel fender washer, rubber washer; Results: A little bit "quieter" but the big difference is the "edge" has been taken off the report. There isn't a crack to the sound anymore and no ping whatsoever. Accuracy is unaffected and there is no sign of durability issues after 200 shots. Opinion: Fairly happy, I'm lazy and strapped for time so I could easily stick to using this mod. However, I'm still struck by how quiet the cloth mod I had used was (WHUMP!) and if I have time will experiment with the possibility of laying a strip of cloth over the screen before wrapping and stuffing into the shroud. True, the cloth is less durable and needs cleaning, but the wire should provide strength and if losely rolled, should be easy to remove/rinse/replace. After trying that, I would attempt to use a finer, softer mesh wrapped around a spring. ------------------------------ Silencer/Moderator #6 Advantages of Rolling- as I see it- versus Washers: 1. Same amount of mesh, possibly more (w/ washers that have been over trimmed, plus OD is mesh vs epoxy). 2. Less human error (for each washer you induce an element of human error). 3. More uniform inside diameter. 4. Less tools (no punch, no tin snips, no dowel, no epoxy, no grinder necessary). 5. Compression is a non-issue. 6. Time cost is roughly 10 min careful tight rolling and 3 min trimming and insertion. 7. Reusable and easily cleaned (pull it out, unroll it, rinse/scrub/lube it, replace it). Aluminum screen door mesh (silver stuff not black) is very stiff (basically weaved wire) so collapse is not an issue with properly rolled material although this does make it more tricky to tightly roll than a softer material. Here's my technique (may look long, but I'm trying to be complete in my instructions): 0. Prep materials and have some squares of duct tape handy. 1. Using a straight edge, fold over roughly 1/2" very carefully to be straight, tight, but not scored/creased (don't fold it all the way down until the fold is a sharp, just give the angle "memory"). 2. Insert a knitting needle or basically anything to keep your fold from collapsing. Note: this should be something thinner than a pencil; You need to keep the folds on either side (x-section should look "eye-shaped") so you can roll the material tightly... a circle will uncoil and loosen on you. 3. Roll tightly. Take your time and be deliberate to do it right. Don't stretch or twist the material. Keep the length in front of you flat. If you roll improperly and go back to do it again, it will coil up in your face and be more difficult, so again, do it right the first time. 4. Tape the tube in three places to hold it there. Remove the knitting needle and insert a chopstick (round end first) until the square end fills the tube. Twist to tighten/round out the center (any slack should loosen the tape, so just press down on the tape to hold the new place). If you rolled it tight, you don't really need to tighten with the chopstick and can just use a pencil to round out the center. The entire thing should feel extremely solid. 5. Pick the muzzle end of the tube and curl any loose wires/ends towards the center so they're not scratching your gun (I also added a spacer for additional protection). Then start to cram that sucker in... if you did it right, you'll need to remove the tape as you twist the tube down into the shroud... if it's too thick clip some of the outer layers. Before you shove the remaining length down, trim the top of any loose wires and curl them. The End! ------------------------------ Silencer/Moderator #7 I used 1 inch (OD) clear tubing - 3/4 inch (ID) in two sections (about $1.00). Split each lenghwise and applied self-adhesive felt (about $2.00). The first and longest section (about 3 inches) slid down the shroud followed by a washer sandwich (two fiber washers, held together by a nylon bushing) between two heavy felt adhesive disks. The felt adhesive disk was advertised for use as chair leg pads, approx $2.50. I used a punch to create a hole about 1/4 inch in diameter. The washers are 1 inch in diameter w/ about a 5/8 inch hole. The felt on both sides of the washer sandwich may help deaden sound on both sides of the washers. The second length of tubing was cut so the end cap would hold it and another washer sandwich in place. Splitting the tubing helps in case you need to remove the packing - it does remain stiff enough to not collapse into the path of the pellet. Total cost of parts approx $6.00 from the hardware store. ------------------------------ Silencer/Moderator #8... BEST ONE YET? Finally found some pickle components... that work! The springs are 1" OD and are available from Mcmaster-Carr in a pack of 6. Here are the specs: #9657K32 - Steel Compression $9.00 PK Spring Zinc-Plated Hrd-Drwn, 2-1/2" Lng, 1" OD, .120" Wire I use a 1" long piece of 3/4" auto heater hose on the endcap end to seal the chamber, because when compressed the hose will swell and seal. As for baffles, I'm still using the good 'ole 1" fender washers with felt pads on one side. Inside the shroud (order of things): 2.5" spring, baffle, 1.25" spring, baffle, 1.25" spring, baffle, 1.25" spring, baffle, 1" long heater hose (3/4" ID 1" OD), endcap. The whole thing compresses quite nicely inside the shroud when the endcap is pressed on. Sound: before I was using the heater hose as baffle spacer material. I figured it was taking up valuble air expansion space, well I was right. With the springs I am using 2 less baffles than I was with the hose and it is quiter already. Will play some more with it later but I'm very satisfied right now with it. Sounds 1/2 as loud as a 2240 with 9.5" bbl. I also replaced the breech seals with Tim's Mac1 seals, which look MUCH stronger and better than the stock ones. The bolt engages the tophat of the bottle with much resistance now, don't feel air leaking on my hand anymore either. I suppose the orings could have contributed to the quieter blast, but I don't think they had much significant effect. For those who want to save air with their new aftermarket hammers, 2-3 coils from a 22xx hammer spring works very well under the tophat - same place you would put the mac1 quad seal. The spring pushes the tophat closed faster so you save some air. I think Hector was the pioneer in this area... I have mine set to fire CP's at 820-780 range, depending on if I start with a full fill (180bar in my case). When filled to 180bar it starts shooting at 800, rises to 820 and starts slowly climbing down to 780, at which point I have fired 55 shots and the pressure ended up at 135bar. At this rate I can fire AT LEAST another 55 shots down to 70-75bar, which is where the POI really drops off on my gun. So there you have it folks, 110 shots from one fill at 20fpe. What a gun! I listed one too many 1.25" springs and a baffle. The correct order is: 2.5" spring, baffle, 1.25" spring, baffle, 1.25" spring, 1" hose endcap. ------------------------------ TRIGGER TUNE ------------------------------ I did a "tune" on the trigger assy of my SS. I measured about .030" slop to the sides of the trigger blade. I found some plastic in two different weights that combined, left a clearance of .005". Made a pair of washers with leather punches. It left the trigger blade with a much more precise feel. I also replaced two of the trigger group springs (first two; trigger blade one and the next one forward). Went to the local hardware store and came away with a .25" dia, .020" wire unit about three inces long. Cut off the two ends to make two springs of four coils trigger) and three and half coils (forward spring). This left a first stage of maybe 4 ozs and a let-off of about two pounds. I'm guestimating at the weight based on other guns as I don't have a scale. I'm pretty happy with the results. Still not quite a Record but decent enough. ------------------------------ TOPHAT SPRING REPLACEMENT ------------------------------ What kind of spring do you install under the tophat or valve? A conical spring is best, but you can also use the spring from a 2240 pistol. I used only about 2 coils from it, but I cut up the whole spring looking for the right legth. What I did was try different springs and refill the tank after each try. Run thru chrony to see changes and make adjustments accordingl; in other words if the velocity has dropped waaay off and the powerwheel isn't changing much, then go with less coils, we just want slight tension on the spring when the tophat is set to its final setting (mine is .125) ------------------------------ TALON PROBLEMS ------------------------------ HISSING NOISE Yes, this is sort of a common problem, the first time the tank is filled, there is a loose ring in the inside of the valve assembly, on the resevoir end. I called Air Force, to see what they had to say about it, because it hadn't ceased after firing a few rounds. (it's not a severe thing, but issues a small hissing sound, which can be distracting, and can cause much distress to someone as enamoured with their gun as I am.) their solution was simple: remove the tank from the gun itself, set it on the butt, turn the power up (screw valve out), and hit the silver piece, straight down, repeatedly, very hard, with your shoe, until the hissing stops. ------------------------------ POOR VELOCITY Make sure you have both O-rings in the breech lubed up with divers silicone grease. Make sure your barrel isn't fouled. Turn the tophat all the way down and then bring it back out 1 1/2 turns. Try shooting with the tank filled to 185 bar. The tank pressure was the velocity killer for me. When there is too much air in the tank, it pushes the valve closed too soon. I pumped my tank up to 206 bar (as recomended on the AF web site) and fired 100 CP's through the chrony. The velocity climbed steadily for the first 30 shots and was pretty stable for the next 30 shots. I'm sure the sweet spot varies from tank to tank and is also affected by the pellet choice and power wheel setting. Cranking the power wheel up to 12 really doesn't buy you much with the 12 inch barrel. I find that anything over 8 results in more noise but no more velocity with the Kodiaks. A setting of 6 seems to get about the maximum velocity with the lighter CP's. ------------------------------