tattoosmusicink: why do you put your "religious" chats on your
website?
Atheist142: so that others can see and perhaps learn from me or
my friend.
Atheist142: (whomever I talk with)
Atheist142: or to laugh at.
tattoosmusicink: what do you want others to learn?
Atheist142: I dunno. perhaps one of us will give someone a new
viewpoint, or enlighten someone... or amuse someone. any of the
above is good :-)
tattoosmusicink: ....how could athiesm enlighten someone?
tattoosmusicink: ...my understanding of athiesm *tell me if i'm wrong*
is that there's no such THING as "enlightenment."
tattoosmusicink: ...?
Atheist142: I dunno.
tattoosmusicink: you "dunno?"
Atheist142: I just don't believe in any god/s... I think someone
can always be enlightened with the truth, whether that truth is
Christianity or atheism.
tattoosmusicink: do you consider yourself an enlightened athiest?
tattoosmusicink: ....you're unsure if the truth is christianity or athiesm?
tattoosmusicink: ...but anyhow, if the truth was that there's no God,
gods, whatever, then how could the truth being nothing enlighten
someone?
tattoosmusicink: doesn't the truth have to have substance for it to
enlighten?
Atheist142: well... If I thought that there was a god, and realized
that the truth was that I was wrong, I would be enlightened, in a
sense, no?
tattoosmusicink: ...are you prone to thinking of things which do not
exist?
Atheist142: well, my parents taught me about quite a few beings
that did not exist.
Atheist142: like Santa, Easter bunny, God...
tattoosmusicink: but don't santa and the easter bunny have a basis in
reality?
tattoosmusicink: ...things which do not exist cannot be thought.
Atheist142: *shrug* what about an invisible pink unicorn?
Atheist142: that does not exist.
tattoosmusicink: the most that CAN be thought is things which are
exaggerated reality.
tattoosmusicink: doesn't an invisible pink unicorn have a basis in
reality, though?
tattoosmusicink: what is a unicorn? a horse with a horn.
tattoosmusicink: what is pink? a color.
tattoosmusicink: what is invisibility? not being seen.
Atheist142: but invisible and pink at the same time is skill.
tattoosmusicink: skill?
Atheist142: :-) yes skill
tattoosmusicink: all the attributes you listed have a basis in reality.
Atheist142: well, god is invisible.
Atheist142: and all-powerful
Atheist142: and all-knowing
Atheist142: (well the Christian one at least is usually portrayed
suck)
Atheist142: such^
tattoosmusicink: ...why are you talking about God as if he exists,
when you don't believe he exists?
Atheist142: because saying "God is invisible" is much simpler
than saying "The Christian god is usually portrayed as invisible"
Atheist142: I apologize, I will correct myself from here on out.
tattoosmusicink: ...wouldn't it make sense to come to the conclusion
that if we can THINK of God as existing, he must exist, in some sense
or another *not necessarily a "christian" god?
tattoosmusicink: i am just trying to understand the best i can.
Atheist142: no.
tattoosmusicink: it wouldn't?
tattoosmusicink: please explain.
Atheist142: I can think of an invisible pink unicorn... but it
doesn't mean there is a unicorn... or a pink horse... or an
invisible horse... or an invisible pink anything.
tattoosmusicink: you are not understanding me.
Atheist142: I can think of a Norn. but it doesn't mean that Norns
are real.
Atheist142: in any form.
tattoosmusicink: an invisible pink unicorn has a BASIS IN
REALITY.
tattoosmusicink: key - BASIS IN REALITY.
Atheist142: *shrug* so does God
tattoosmusicink: how would you describe a Norn?
Atheist142: I think God is based on people, their needs, their
fears... whatnot... and a Norn is a critter in the game Creatures 2
that is hard to describe.
tattoosmusicink: ...you couldn't create your own description. you'd
have to use exaggerations of things that already exist!
tattoosmusicink: how on earth could humanity invent something
greater than itself?
Atheist142: and for god, you take exaggerations of things that
exist as well.
Atheist142: like knowledge.
Atheist142: and power
tattoosmusicink: ....that is your proof against the existence of god?
Atheist142: I don't think god doesn't exist.
Atheist142: I doubt he/she/it does.
tattoosmusicink: then you aren't an athiest!
Atheist142: yes I am
tattoosmusicink: if you're DOUBTFUL, then you're agnostic.
Atheist142: I lack a god-belief, therefore I am an atheist
Atheist142: agnostics think that is impossible to determine if god
exists or the true nature of god
tattoosmusicink: ...then you and the rest of the "athiests" need to get
together and make up some definitions for everyone to go by.
tattoosmusicink: you've all got different meanings.
tattoosmusicink: ..how can anyone know who's a real athiest, and
who "lacks a god belief?"
tattoosmusicink: get a standard1
Atheist142: ask them?
tattoosmusicink: !
Atheist142: how about ask them... all atheists lack a god-belief...
some just take it further and that's peachy with me. just ask
them first.
tattoosmusicink: ask them? when you see someone who's a christian,
do you ask them "what exactly do you mean by 'christian?"
Atheist142: yes... because a Catholic is different from a Mormon
or a JW or a Methodist
tattoosmusicink: ah.
tattoosmusicink: well, LACKING a god belief is different than not
believing at all...wouldn't you say?
Atheist142: no
Atheist142: lack = no belief
tattoosmusicink: you sound like Bill Clinton trying to get out of a tight
spot with an examination board.
Atheist142: a disbelief is different from a lack of belief... though
Atheist142: saying "I believe god does not exist" is different
from saying "I lack a belief"
Atheist142: large difference.
tattoosmusicink: so you're wishy washy?
Atheist142: I wouldn't call it that, no :-)
tattoosmusicink: ....that's what i said...wishy washy.
Atheist142: but if you want to, that's fine. :-)
tattoosmusicink: you've got no backbone when it comes to the issue?
opinion changes based on to whom you're speaking?
Atheist142: no.
Atheist142: I believe the same all the time
tattoosmusicink: or you just don't want to form an opinion?
tattoosmusicink: ...but your belief is "i don't have a belief."
Atheist142: or I lack belief all the time, rather :-P
Atheist142: yes indeedy do.
tattoosmusicink: ...that's the most ridiculous thing i think i've ever
heard.
Atheist142: okies
Atheist142: *shrug* think what you will
tattoosmusicink: how can anyone go through life without ever
believing something, or even sillier, having their belief being "i don't have
any beliefs."
Atheist142: well, religious-wise at least... and I can very well.
Atheist142: as do many atheists
tattoosmusicink: you've talked to them?
tattoosmusicink: and just FYI...christianity is NOT a religion.
tattoosmusicink: religion is man made...based upon doing things...
like a point value system..
tattoosmusicink: christianity is a relationship...
Atheist142: yes, I know quite a few. and call it what you will, it
falls under the category of religion.
Atheist142: *shrug*
Atheist142: sorry bout that, I have the computer from hell
Atheist142: :-)
tattoosmusicink: hm....
tattoosmusicink: hell?
tattoosmusicink: ....you're even using "religious" based terms in your
slang speech...
tattoosmusicink: funny how that is....hmmmmmm.
tattoosmusicink: what do you mean by "hell?"
Atheist142: slang term for "a bad place"
tattoosmusicink: ...but it doesn't exist?
tattoosmusicink: ...does it?
Atheist142: not that I know of, except maybe Wisconsin (and
trust me, that's bad enough)
tattoosmusicink: ah....so when you say you have the computer from
hell, you really mean you have the computer from wisconsin?
tattoosmusicink: ..then why don't you say "i have the computer from
wisconsin?"
Atheist142: :-P because I mean the Computer from Hell... like a
fictional place of eternal torment from which this demonic
computer came to torture me
tattoosmusicink: ah...what do you mean by demonic?
Atheist142: demonic, likened to a demon (ever see the
Exorcist?)
Atheist142: I love that movie
tattoosmusicink: yes, i've seen the exorcist. but how on earth do you
justify using that term in your speech? i don't refer to things that i don't
believe exist in MY day to day speech.
tattoosmusicink: i don't walk outside, and say "well, looks like an
invisible-pink-unicorn type of day today!"
Atheist142: I refer to things like Utopia, Hell, etc. in my speech
'cause they are convenient. :-)
tattoosmusicink: ah.
tattoosmusicink: convenience....
Atheist142: yessir
tattoosmusicink: why have you chosen to not have a belief?
tattoosmusicink: ...just the easiest thing to do?
Atheist142: because I see no valid reason to
tattoosmusicink: ah.. so you see plenty of reasons, just none you
consider valid?
Atheist142: well... basically... yes.
tattoosmusicink: so the key here is "YOU CONSIDER"
tattoosmusicink: ...what makes you so sure of yourself?
Atheist142: hmm...
Atheist142: ego, I suppose :-)
tattoosmusicink: you realize that if you put this conversation on your
website, without editing it to make me look a fool, people will laugh at
you, and not me, right?
Atheist142: probably :-)
tattoosmusicink: ok. good.
Atheist142: you seem sure of yourself.
tattoosmusicink: i am.
Atheist142: any particular reason?
tattoosmusicink: but it isn't ego.
tattoosmusicink: i'm sure of myself because i've found the truth.
Atheist142: how do you know you have?
tattoosmusicink: my point in all this is not to make fun of you. i'm
trying to make you realize the idiosyncrysies of your own selfism.
Atheist142: hmm?
Atheist142: what is "selfism"
tattoosmusicink: self based doctrine.
Atheist142: ah soy
tattoosmusicink: you see what you want, and you interpret it as you
want.
tattoosmusicink: i know i have because i do.
tattoosmusicink: heh.
tattoosmusicink: i prayed for God, if he existed, to reveal himself to
me...he did.
Atheist142: ok... can you tell me how I am wrong? (seriously)
tattoosmusicink: you are wrong because you are looking at things
from YOUR point of view...human.
tattoosmusicink: you cannot step out of finite-ism for a moment to see
if perhaps YOU'RE the one with the blanket pulled over your eyes.
Atheist142: ah... well if you pray to God you already believe in
him, right? so if ou are looking for a sign... you may provide one
for yourself.
tattoosmusicink: ...isn't that what you've done?
Atheist142: I am still looking for a "sign"
tattoosmusicink: but if God sees you're earnestly, sincerely searching
for HIM, then he'll make sure there's no way it could be confused.
Atheist142: why do you think I don't block people who challenge
me?
Atheist142: I am waiting for God to tap on my head
(metaphorically)
tattoosmusicink: because you want to put their entertaining,
condemning, foolish conversations on your website.
tattoosmusicink: well, He is.
Atheist142: how?
tattoosmusicink: you're just constantly turning around.
tattoosmusicink: ....ever hear of the saying "He couldn't see the forest
for the trees"
Atheist142: how is deity showing me that he/she/it exists
though... and yes, but I don't see how that phrase fits with this
situation.
tattoosmusicink: i honestly couldn't tell you how. God does not
operate according to how we think He should.
tattoosmusicink: he's got HIS agenda. he does things on his own
time, in his own way.
Atheist142: *shruggies*
Atheist142: then how can you claim that I have been shown, but I
turn away?
Atheist142: perhaps I just have not been shown yet?
tattoosmusicink: ...that's why i doubt you're searching.
tattoosmusicink: ...perhaps you have?
tattoosmusicink: you seem you believe you've found truth in not
having a belief.
Atheist142: well if I pray to God, it means I already believe he's
there, answering, right?
tattoosmusicink: how long are you going to claim ignorance?
Atheist142: what means you?
tattoosmusicink: i don't understand your last statement.
Atheist142: what means you by "how long are you going to claim
ignorance?"?
tattoosmusicink: are you going to spend your whole life saying "until
God comes down here and gives me a sign, i'm going to not believe
anything"
tattoosmusicink: ...how many times do you have to be shown the way
before you'll accept IT'S THE WAY?
tattoosmusicink: there's a story i could tell you, but it's kind of long.
tattoosmusicink: *shrug*
Atheist142: okay, you have not proven to me that your way is
"THE WAY" so I really can't say that you are right... and if you
want to tell, I'd like to hear :-)
tattoosmusicink: you want a signed document from God which says "I
exist?"
tattoosmusicink: ...you've got one, and you don't believe it.
Atheist142: um... or a logical progression of thought that shows
he exists...
tattoosmusicink: what color is your mother's hair?
Atheist142: and the Bible doesnt cut it, IMHO
Atheist142: brown
[My computer disconnected me again, small pause while I restarted.]
Atheist142: drr, it did it again
Atheist142: grr @ computer
Atheist142: I'm sorry about that
tattoosmusicink: ok. i don't want to bother you anymore.
tattoosmusicink: have a great day.
Atheist142: wait...
Atheist142: why you leave?
tattoosmusicink: because i'm done with this conversation.
Atheist142: :-( sorry if I did anything to make you feel insulted
tattoosmusicink: you are demanding proof i can't provide you. you
already have proof...you just don't accept it.
tattoosmusicink: oh, trust me. if you've insulted anything, it's yourself.
not me.
Atheist142: mm. :-\
tattoosmusicink: it's ok. you're only fifteen.
Atheist142: what... proof do you speak of?
Atheist142: I'm a dumb teen... please tell me.
tattoosmusicink: hopefully, you don't die tomorrow...or the next
day...hopefully you've got lots and lots of time to decide just what you
belive.
tattoosmusicink: *believe*
tattoosmusicink: i'm talking about The Bible, of course.
Atheist142: oh.
tattoosmusicink: you told me it doesn't count.
Atheist142: ah. hem.
Atheist142: yeeeah... that...
Atheist142: :-\
tattoosmusicink: ...that's like a judge throwing out all the evidence of a
case, and then telling the lawyers to find something else.
tattoosmusicink: ...well, you tell me what we're supposed to do, Mr.
Judge?
Atheist142: i dunno how that counts as proof... I'm sorry. if you
know something that I do not, then please tell.
tattoosmusicink: have you any idea of the archaeological authority of the
bible?
Atheist142: no I do not. I did not know that it had any
archaeological authority at all.
tattoosmusicink: it does.
Atheist142: how so?
tattoosmusicink: Israel...Cannan...Egypt...tigris and Euphrates
rivers...River of Jordan...sea of Galilee...
tattoosmusicink: these are just simple example.s
Atheist142: it does have a basis in reality... I agree
Atheist142: but there isn't much to substantiate its metaphysical
claims that I know of.
tattoosmusicink: ..it talks about the culture of Israel as it REALLY WAS
then...IS now,
tattoosmusicink: what kind of substantiation are you looking for?
tattoosmusicink: ....did you know jesus ministry, crucifixion, etc. are
recorded in other places than the bible?
Atheist142: well... there isn't really anything to back up, say Noah's
ark. or that Jesus rose from the dead.
tattoosmusicink: other historians from that time period wrote of him.
tattoosmusicink: ah, yes there is for noah's ark.
tattoosmusicink: and for jesus' resurrection.
tattoosmusicink: you just don't know of it.
tattoosmusicink: you haven't done your homework. :-)
Atheist142: yes, there are references to Jesus.. but after the
gospels were published. they may very well be copying what the
Christians told them to write.
tattoosmusicink: no, no no.
Atheist142: and none for Noah's ark... I did research that.
Atheist142: :-P
tattoosmusicink: i am talking about the writings of Josephus.
Atheist142: that was most likely forged
Atheist142: that I know of.
tattoosmusicink: based on WHO'S authority? yours?
tattoosmusicink: you're fifteen dang years old, girl!
tattoosmusicink: who are YOU to say "THAT WAS FORGED! I JUST
KNOW IT!"
Atheist142: heh, yeah, I knwo... but no, I get this from a source I
trust...
Atheist142: :-)
tattoosmusicink: ah, on the internet?
Atheist142: Cliff Walker, of Positive Atheism.
tattoosmusicink: ??????????????!!!!
tattoosmusicink: your "source you trust" believes the exact same thing
YOU do!
tattoosmusicink: of COURSE he's going to tell you what he believes!
Atheist142: *shrug* he makes a much better case for it than I do
Atheist142: I can just quote him
Atheist142: because I haven't so much as looked at the texts
myself.
tattoosmusicink: that's like going to a book which is PRO abortion and
looking for things that are wrong with it! it's going to say "NOTHING IS
WRONG WITH ABORTION"
tattoosmusicink: well, maybe you should do that, you think?
Atheist142: *shrug* I trust him.
tattoosmusicink: and NO, you cannot quote him in THIS conversation.
Atheist142: what can I say other than that.
tattoosmusicink: NOTHING he says is authoritative.
Atheist142: *shrug* what knows you about his credentials?
tattoosmusicink: he is not a christian. how can you treat him as an
authority on noah's ark, or jesus death and resurrection?
tattoosmusicink: what knows YOU about his knowledge of the
metaphysical? he doesn't even BELIEVE in it!
tattoosmusicink: i'm done talking to you now.
tattoosmusicink: i'm frustrated at your athiest dogma.
tattoosmusicink: have a good day.
tattoosmusicink signed off at 4:53:44 AM.
