Atheist142: no, but for all the wrong reasons...I am actually trying to get him to be
one
Atheist142: he's the "I hate god because he did bad things" kind of people
Atheist142: which is wrong, and I think Christianity would be good for him...
SofaPMan: but not for you?
Atheist142: Well, it gives a lot of people some stability in their lives, a good
relationship with God, etc. etc. I have that in my own life without needing a "god",
so I stay out of the realm of make-believe
SofaPMan: brb
Atheist142: k
SofaPMan: back
Atheist142: hiya again
SofaPMan: yea...
SofaPMan: so whatcha wanna talk about
Atheist142: i dunno, kinda out of it 'cause I haven't slept much recently...
SofaPMan: friends?
Atheist142: eh, that and just a lot of stress/schoolwork keeping me up
SofaPMan: lol, i'm done with school
Atheist142: Plus I have an icky cold...
Atheist142: BLAH! I still have about 3 weeks
SofaPMan: lol
SofaPMan: not about the cold
Atheist142: hehehe, I know
SofaPMan: have you ever heard POD?
Atheist142: yeah, my little brother listens to them, why?
SofaPMan: well did you know they're christian?
Atheist142: yeah. I told him that and he stopped listening...
SofaPMan: lol
SofaPMan: what did God do to him?
Atheist142: Well, his grandfather died, then mom went loopy, then our grandma
died, now his grades are dropping...
Atheist142: He is blaming it all on God, which is all wrong...
SofaPMan: whos to blame then?
Atheist142: Well, the first three were chance problems, the last is his own fault
SofaPMan: oh...
SofaPMan: can you explain something to me?
Atheist142: sure
SofaPMan: how do you believe humans came into existance?
Atheist142: evolution and the Inflationary Big Bang Theory, although not
neccessarily in that order :-)
SofaPMan: oh... and thats simpler to believe than a Creator?
Atheist142: Well, it has the most evidence pointing to it, maybe not quite so much
simpler and easier, just more likely
SofaPMan: evidenvce?
SofaPMan: isn't that why they call them theories, because of no
evidence?
Atheist142: no, everything that is most likely in science is called a Theory, like the
Theory of Gravitation or the Atomic Theory
SofaPMan: oh... true, but what about all the evidences that it doesn't
exist
Atheist142: like...?
SofaPMan: like first of all, the chances of the big bang theory
happening are immpossible to comprehend
Atheist142: well, in a near-infinite amount of time and space, I think we could pull
it off... :-)
SofaPMan: okay, and what about the carbon dating stuff... its totally
wrong
Atheist142: give me examples or something besides that?
Atheist142: please
SofaPMan: okay... let me think
SofaPMan: what about the ape men?
Atheist142: what are "ape men"?
SofaPMan: the men that are supposed to be the first types of humans
Atheist142: oh, you mean the "missing link" hominids?
SofaPMan: yea... they all been proven to been hoxes
Atheist142: not all, just a lot, and I'm not surprised at the lot that have
SofaPMan: no... all have
Atheist142: okay, show me that all have been.
SofaPMan: i can't, you cant read the book that i've read, unless you
have it
Atheist142: well, yes, I will say that a great many were hoaxes, but I really don't
think all have, and even if they have, it doesn't prove or disprove anything than
the fact that we're missing fossils for certain time periods.
SofaPMan: okay what about
SofaPMan: human foot printshave been found in the same secimetn
layer as dinosaurs
Atheist142: yes? That's to be expected. Sediment layers get eroded, and humans
walk across billion-year-old sediment.
SofaPMan: huh?
Atheist142: Well, you know about erosion right?
SofaPMan: yea...
Atheist142: well, if the soil erodes far enough, as on beaches or whatever, the
layers of sediment get eroded down to where you may be walking on
thousands-of-years-old sediment
SofaPMan: okay, i don't comprehend that, but lets try this
SofaPMan: all the sedimetn layers on the earths crust are mixed up,
and none are in the order evolutionists claim they should be in to
prove certain species came before others
Atheist142: well, we can compare DNA now to see which species came before
others now
SofaPMan: yea, but the layers disprove the order they think they
come in
Atheist142: yes, that's disputing the layout of the animals, not the Theory itself.
SofaPMan: are you agreeing with me?
Atheist142: I'd agree, most biologists before now were bickering about which
animals go when... but now they're doing DNA stuff that I can't begin to
comprehend...
Atheist142: And it doesn't disprove the theory...
SofaPMan: oh... yea it does, if they aren't in the order, then there
must be something wrong
Atheist142: not neccessarily, it just means that they can't tell which relative was
closest...
SofaPMan: we have no idea how protiens could have evlolved. all the
experiments that have tried to explain it have contained serious
flaws, or were in an artificial enviornment that couldn't have
existed in nature. some of those experiments are miller's experint,
a.i. oparin's and fox's
Atheist142: well, my bio teacher taught that amino acids come together in chains
kind of at random, and after a few billion years they probably worked out through
process of elimination to be somewhat useful
SofaPMan: probably?
Atheist142: well, they had to or we wouldn't be here, would we?
SofaPMan: nope, God could've had a big part in making us... lol
Atheist142: even if evolution is wrong, than there could be other, better theories
that we just haven't discovered yet
SofaPMan: oh... wait... what about scientists who believe in God?
Atheist142: well, they can believe what they want.
SofaPMan: okay
SofaPMan: i tell you what
Atheist142: yees?
SofaPMan: i'll go to that website, if you promise to go to
answersingenisis.org
Atheist142: sure
SofaPMan: wait a sec
Atheist142: my computer says "he page cannot be displayed"
SofaPMan: genesis... i spelled it wrong.. soryy
Atheist142: tanky
Atheist142: any section in particular?
SofaPMan: just look aroudn
SofaPMan: but you dont have to now... im talking about later
Atheist142: okies
SofaPMan: i got another argumetn for ya
Atheist142: sure
SofaPMan: two world-famous astronomers and mathmeticians, Sir
fred hoyle and chandra wickramasinge, considered the probability
of the spark of life forming by chance. the following are some of
the discoveries they made:
1. enzyms, which are vital to all of biology, do not leave even a gict
of their origins.
2. there are ten to twnty distinct amino acids in the structure of
the enzyme. all of these amino acids must be in the correcnt
position in otder for the ensyme to do its work.
3. consider the chance that a rindom array of twenty amino acids
necessary for making up protrins would happen to fall in the
correct order for any specific enzyme. calculations would force the
conclusion that this just couldn't happen
SofaPMan: hoyle and wickramasinghe concluded that the probability
of getting life anywhere in the universe from evolutionary
processes was an reasonable as getting a full-functional Boeing
747 jumbo jet from a tornado in a junkyard
Atheist142: What's a "gict"
SofaPMan: hold on i might have misspelled it...
SofaPMan: i think i meant bit...
Atheist142: First, if this is human enzymes, I agree, it couldn't have just appeared
randomly. There was definite process involved. First a few small chains formed in
protists and such, then evolved into longer ones, which fits evolution.
Atheist142: Second, evolution isn't total chance, there was genetic recombining
and environmental pressures involved.
SofaPMan: okay... i'm lost... i just copied that from a conversatoin
me and my friend had... lol
Atheist142: what are you lost on?
SofaPMan: i really have no idea about science stuff, you should talk
to my friend about it
Atheist142: eh, no big deal to me
SofaPMan: okay.
SofaPMan direct connection is closed.
Atheist142: rg.
SofaPMan: rg?
Atheist142: I'm looking around your site and there are a lot of editorials but little
actual data or evidence
SofaPMan: oh... well, i'll try to find you another one
SofaPMan: id let you read a book, but well i'm not right there with
you
Atheist142: you really don't need to worry about it, I know there are some pretty
blaring loopholes in evolution
Atheist142: it doesn't have much to do with my believe in a god.
Atheist142: or lack thereof
SofaPMan: can i be honest with you
Atheist142: sure
SofaPMan: i dont want you to be an athiest
Atheist142: I could have guessed that... :-) I don't mind it, I actually think it's
kind of nice someone would care about that without even meeting me. Thank you
for not being in-my-face about it, though.
SofaPMan: i want to know what turned you off of Christ
Atheist142: Well, it's not that anything really shooed me away, it's that I never
found a good reason to believe.
SofaPMan: what if i give you one
Atheist142: if it holds up, then I'd be a Christian.
SofaPMan: you wanna know why i'm a christian
Atheist142: sure
SofaPMan: because he's always been there for me, and he's shown
me himself countless times
Atheist142: That's very nice, and I'm glad that he has.
SofaPMan: and you've never felt his presence at all?
Atheist142: no.
SofaPMan: i'm sorry
SofaPMan: it feels wonderful
SofaPMan: its like the best feeling ive ever had in my life
Atheist142: Don't be sorry, I've had a great life :-)
SofaPMan: but what you don't see is that it can be better, and i really
feel sorry that you've never felt Him
Atheist142: thank you, I think...
SofaPMan: so all you need is a reason to believe and you'd believe?
Atheist142: a good, logical, evidence-based reason, yes.
SofaPMan: okay, prove to me that the wind is real
Atheist142: I can feel it and measure it with instruments and see its effects.
Atheist142: I can't run over there with my wind sock right now and show you, but I
think you have felt the wind before :-)
SofaPMan: what about me feeling God, and measuring it with his
effect in their lives
SofaPMan: my friends lives that is
Atheist142: I think, if that's good for you, you should and do believe.
Atheist142: I have never once percieved any god, or seen a valid argument for
one, so I can't believe.
SofaPMan: what about in someone elses life, and how do you explain
Christ?
Atheist142: I think Christ was a very nice mythological figure.
SofaPMan: wait... Christ was a myth?, now thats been disproven
Atheist142: Really? Where?
SofaPMan: what are you saying?
SofaPMan: yea... its been proven that Christ existed
Atheist142: Evein if a man named Jesus Christ existed, and he was a political
leader, with twelve main followers, and was crucified under the reign of Pontius
Pilate, it doesn't prove he was ever risen from the dead or the Son of God.
Atheist142: if you can do that, then go ahead, give me a book title or something
and I'll read it.
SofaPMan: how do you explain him rising from the dead then
Atheist142: I think someone made it up.
Atheist142: In fact, a few people probably, seeing as there are more than one
Gospel author.
SofaPMan: how do you describe the body diapearring?
Atheist142: I think someone made it up, as I said before.
SofaPMan: like i said, how do you explain the missing body... its true
that Christ lived, from all these writings and stuff
Atheist142: what writings? and how did they prove that Christ rose from the
dead?
Atheist142: If he lived that's one thing, rising from the dead is another matter
entirely.
SofaPMan: okay... he lived, how do you describe the body missing
from the tomb... it wasn't in there
SofaPMan: on the third day
Atheist142: I think someone made up that story.
SofaPMan: how can someone make up a body missing, if it really
was?
Atheist142: I don't think it was missing, I don't know if it was missing, I was never
shown that there was a Christ to begin with! you never showed me that!
Atheist142: I am checking the first facts against the ones I have read from
someone I trust...
SofaPMan: you dont' trust me?
Atheist142: Not that, I just don't trust whoever wrote this page.
SofaPMan: Josh McDowell?
SofaPMan: he is a scientist who was out to disprove Christianity, and
all he coudl do was believe
Atheist142: That's good for him. :-)
SofaPMan: i'm just saying you can trust him... he's known
world-wide
Atheist142: Well, that doesn't neccessarily make him reliable.
SofaPMan: why?
Atheist142: Well, just because George Clooney is famous doesn't make him
reliable.
SofaPMan: okay... true, who are you checking with?
SofaPMan: how do i know hes reliable
Atheist142: I am checking with Cliff Walker, of Positive Atheism (he has a website
that I am looking at) and I trust him because I know he values truthfulness and
constancy above all things from his words and actions.
SofaPMan: but he believes Christianity is untruthful
Atheist142: Yes.
SofaPMan: so how could he say this guy is reliable
Atheist142: That part's not really important, it was a minor thing, don't worry :-)
Atheist142: (that they both agree on by the way)
SofaPMan: what was it?
Atheist142: the number of years that passed between the alleged crucifixion and
the first Gospel manuscript.
SofaPMan: oh
Atheist142: minor detail
SofaPMan: okay
Atheist142: He never actually gives evidence for the resurrection, he just assumes
it happened.
SofaPMan: yea he does read...
Atheist142: I did.
Atheist142: in the section "A QUESTION OF HISTORY"
Atheist142: the second paragraph begins "Here are some of the facts..."
Atheist142: He never backs up these "facts", just draws conclusions from them.
SofaPMan: the facts are the bible
Atheist142: well, no one ever proved that, not to me.
SofaPMan: proved what?
Atheist142: anything in the Bible
Atheist142: To me, the Bible is a pretty story.
SofaPMan: the bible?
Atheist142: yes
SofaPMan: but doesnt it seem weird that 98% in the bible is
historically accurate
Atheist142: noone ever said that. Where did you hear that statistic?
Atheist142: and most of the stuff I've read in the bible can't be verified by anyone.
SofaPMan: from this video i watched on the FOX
Atheist142: Ah, and that's reliable to you? :-P
SofaPMan: i dont know about the writings that the historians talk
about, but they talk about the ancient egyptian writings, and
hebrew, and chinese, and just stuff like that
Atheist142: what are you talking about? I'm lost...
SofaPMan: ask that reliable source of yours if 98% of the bible is
historically acuarate
Atheist142: Well, since he's not a Christian, I doubt he'll say yes.
SofaPMan: probably not but jsut ask im
SofaPMan: him*
Atheist142: I don't think it is, and I think it's a bit ridiculous to ask him.
Atheist142: Why would I do that when I doubt it myself
Atheist142: ?
SofaPMan: because i asked you to?
Atheist142: Unless you prove that or demonstrate that in some way then I don't
think I believe that one.
SofaPMan: the thing is... i don't have the proof... i dont study up on
this stuff the way i should
Atheist142: well then why do you quote this stuff like fact if you don't know it's
true yourself?
SofaPMan: i'm just saying that historians have said that the bible is
98% historically accurate
Atheist142: which historians?
SofaPMan: i do know its true... these men off the show on Fox, which
was titled Jesus:Myth or Fact
Atheist142: You believe a TV show without looking into any background?
Atheist142: eh, it works for some...
SofaPMan: oh... no, i believe my father, who said the men who did
the show are scientist and historians, who have worked on this
stuff all their life
Atheist142: ah. Well, it's a bit more believable coming from him, I suppose :-)
Atheist142: Maybe not any more truthful, but more believable.
SofaPMan: huh?
Atheist142: did I say something vaguely?
SofaPMan: nope... i just find it hard for you to say that about my
father, when you don't even know the guy
Atheist142: Well, I don't know him, so I cannot believe him, although I see how
you can and do.
Atheist142: I don't mean to insult your father, I'm sure he's a great guy :-)
SofaPMan: oh don't worry about it
SofaPMan: i'm not very good at debate if you can tell
SofaPMan: my problem is i go by faith and not by fact
SofaPMan: i guess i don't need the facts to see that Gods out there
Atheist142: I'm the exact opposite... but it's still fun :-)
SofaPMan: i guess i use my life, and how its been touched by him in
so many ways
SofaPMan: as my fact
Atheist142: And you should. It happened to you, and that's great.
SofaPMan: i could be wrong, but it sounds to me like you want it, do
you?
Atheist142: It would be nice to have faith. Very nice.
SofaPMan: um... did you know that faith is the total opposite of fact
Atheist142: Yes, that is why I don't have faith. although it would be nice, I can't
and don't have faith.
SofaPMan: get it
Atheist142: Again, I can't.
SofaPMan: its not hard
SofaPMan: you can't prove faith
SofaPMan: you can only belive it
Atheist142: Well, then I'll never have faith.
SofaPMan: does everything have to be proven to you before you
believe it?
Atheist142: Pretty much, unless I experience it.
SofaPMan: did someone have to prove to you that breathing was a
good idea?
SofaPMan: there are somethings that just can't be proven
Atheist142: no, but I experienced that one...I said if I experienced it, I didn't need
it proven.
Atheist142: If things are self-evident, they don't need proven.
SofaPMan: yea... then why don't you experience God?
Atheist142: Well, if I had the choice I would, but I don't and I haven't.
Atheist142: Plus I don't believe there's a God to experience...
SofaPMan: how do you not have the choice?
Atheist142: Kind of putting the cart before the horse...
SofaPMan: wait... you said if you'd experience it, then you'd believe
it. and now you say you can't experience it, because you don't
believe it... its an endless cycle
SofaPMan: no matter what your not even gonna try
SofaPMan: ?
Atheist142: Okay, I don't believe there's anything to experience so why should I
try?
SofaPMan: because i asked :-D
Atheist142: If I did have an experience, then I'd believe, but I'm not going to go
out searching beyond what I already have...
Atheist142: Have you sought out Buddha?
SofaPMan: nope, no need
SofaPMan: i've already found the truth
Atheist142: Well, that's how I feel about Christianity...
Atheist142: except I don't think there's a religious "truth" to find... IMHO
SofaPMan: but you don't have faith... thats why i believe what i do,
but i know that you do
SofaPMan: i know that you've had to have used faith once or twice in
your life
Atheist142: yes, I was a Christian once...
SofaPMan: no you weren't
SofaPMan: a christian is someone who has experienced Christ, and if
you haven't, then you weren't a christian
Atheist142: Well, I believed at least somewhat in Christ
Atheist142: I actually really really believed in Christ, but if you don't want to call
what I did believing, then fine...
SofaPMan: you couldn't have, my guess is you "believed" because
someone else in your family did, or your friends did
Atheist142: :-P
Atheist142: yep, that's why I'm an atheist...
SofaPMan: IMHO, i believe that if you know Christ, you won't turn
away
Atheist142: Ah, soy
SofaPMan: finally you said, why your an athiest
Atheist142: Yep, because I have no reason to believe, just like you said.
SofaPMan: because you felt you were too much like everyone else?
Atheist142: I believed because my family did and when I realized this wasn't a
good reason, I decided to question my beliefs and became an atheist.
SofaPMan: have you stopped questioning?
Atheist142: not much left to question... :-)
SofaPMan: what about me?
SofaPMan: don't you questoin me?
SofaPMan: if i'm sane
Atheist142: Isn't that what I've been doing :-)?
SofaPMan: if i'm a lunatic?
SofaPMan: kinda
Atheist142: well if you are loony, then you've found your match :-D
SofaPMan: nah, i dont think so, we're a little too different... lol
Atheist142: hehehe, you think so?
SofaPMan: you dont match my first quality in woman
SofaPMan: :-)
SofaPMan: i bet you cant guess what that is
Atheist142: hmmmm, lots of thought there...I'm guessing she has to be a pagan
who bows down to a rock every morning at 6 AM
SofaPMan: almost, you got the believing in something right
SofaPMan: what is love to you?
Atheist142: love is a very complex emotion...
SofaPMan: too technical... talk in my terms
Atheist142: love is a tricky feeling :-)
SofaPMan: tell me what you think love is... describe it
Atheist142: love is different with each person I feel it with, it's a personal thing.
SofaPMan: okay... what about your love for your mom?
Atheist142: I don't love my mom.
SofaPMan: i'm sorry you feel that way, what about your boyfriend
Atheist142: I don't have one
Atheist142: I just am lacking all over the place!
Atheist142: :-)
SofaPMan: and your satisfied with this?
Atheist142: I have deep love for my friends.
SofaPMan: good, then describe that love to me
Atheist142: Well, to me friendship is like a good trade, you give something to it
and you take something from it.
SofaPMan: so if you don't get anything in return, you dont be friends
Atheist142: Love to me is like knowing that the person will give something without
expecting anything back, and you can give to them without expecting anything
given to you.
SofaPMan: thats soudns kinda selfish
SofaPMan: okay... that sounds familiar
Atheist142: it is, but it's life. If your friends take and take and take from you, all
your time, money, etc. and never give, is that bad?
Atheist142: On the other hand if you take and take and take and never give, that
is selfish and very bad for the other.
SofaPMan: on their behalf, but it seems pretty noble on your behalf
SofaPMan: so how do you describe love in scientifc terms
Atheist142: Love is a byproduct of complex connections of neurons in our brains
that result from certain stimuli.
SofaPMan: yea... i was thinking the same thing... lol
SofaPMan: are you planning on getting married?
Atheist142: I'd like to someday...
SofaPMan: are you gonna scientifically experiment with marriage,
before you do?
Atheist142: how would I do that?
Atheist142: And why would I want to? That wouldn't be fun! :-)
SofaPMan: i dont' know... to me would require a whole lot of faith to
get married to someone
SofaPMan: faith that the marriage will last, and that you will have
kids, and that you'll always be in love
SofaPMan: i'm not gonna win this debate, but i'm throwing out all i
got
SofaPMan: :-)
Atheist142: Well, I'd prefer having an honest partner who will tell me if something
is wrong and help us work it out to faith :-)
SofaPMan: what do you mean work it out to faith?
SofaPMan: isn't it a leap of faith to get married to someone
Atheist142: If I know that my partner will always try to keep the relationship, that
he'll try to work out any problems, I'd prefer that to faith.
SofaPMan: how do you know, how do you know that when you sit in
a chair that it won't brake, and how do you know that you'll live
tomorrow, isn't all this faith?
Atheist142: From prior experience, and knowledge of the structure of wood and
chairs, I can tell you that I probably will not fall down if I sit in this sturdy-looking
chair.
SofaPMan: but what about the chance that it might break?
SofaPMan: there's always a chance, but you have enough faith to
look past it
Atheist142: I take that chance every time I sit down, but so far a chair has only
broken once and that was because it was a folding chair that wasn't folded out
correctly :-)
Atheist142: No faith, just good guessing.
SofaPMan: and when you ride in the car with your friends don't you
have faith that they won't wreck
Atheist142: No, from my knowledge of their driving abilities and that they passed
the drivers' test, I can safely predict that they probably won't crash
SofaPMan: i think good guessing would be considered faith... and
you're telling me that everytime you sit in a chair you check if its
stirdy, and when you sat in the chair that fell, you had faith that it
would hold you didn't you?
SofaPMan: what about all the other drivers, don't you have faith that
they aren't drinking and driving, or sleepy, or are driving with out
paying attention?
Atheist142: I had assumed it would, but I wouldn't call it faith. And every time
after that, yes, I do look at the chairs I sit in now and see if their legs are broken...
SofaPMan: really, everytime, and you assumed, because you had
faith it would, faith is believing in something right?
Atheist142: I don't consider that faith. I consider that an assumption, and
sometimes a wrong one, but not faith.
Atheist142: Plus, it's based on prior knowledge.
SofaPMan: okay... dictionary time...
SofaPMan: faith..
Atheist142: Peter Murphy...are you going to get technical with me?
SofaPMan: a belief in the value, truth, or trustworthyness of someone
or something. you believed that the chair would hold you based on
the trustworthyness that the chair would hold you
SofaPMan: right?
SofaPMan: whose peter murphy?
Atheist142: lead singer of Bauhaus, kind of my replacement for "Jesus Christ" as
a swear word.
SofaPMan: oh?
Atheist142: I assumed the chair would hold me based on my knowledge of the
structures of chairs, yes.
SofaPMan: an assumption is different from belief?
SofaPMan: okay dictionary time again...
SofaPMan: assumption-
Atheist142: Well, I think it's actually a type of belief, specifically, but no matter,
fine, I believed the chair would hold me, based on evidence.
SofaPMan: an idea or statementbelieved to be true without proof...?
SofaPMan: sounds alot like faith to me
Atheist142: yes it does...which dictionary are you using?
SofaPMan: and i'm using websters
SofaPMan: you can check if youd like
Atheist142: ah, I use Encarta...there's a bit of difference
SofaPMan: okay... give it to me
Atheist142: That's okay, I stand corrected. I believe, not assume
SofaPMan: okay then read the definition i gave for faith again
SofaPMan: a belief in the value, truth, or trustworthyness of someone
or something.
Atheist142: *sigh*
SofaPMan: trust me... you do use faith
Atheist142: okay, by your set of beliefs, I have faith
SofaPMan: then you tell me what faith is
SofaPMan: to you
SofaPMan: hello?
Atheist142: hang on a sec
SofaPMan: and one more thing... those arent my beliefs, but basically
the whole worlds
SofaPMan: i used the dictionary
SofaPMan: not my brain
Atheist142: no, just Webster's...they also have "wickedness" as a synonym for
"atheism" and they use a definition for atheism that no atheist in his/her right
mind would use, so I don't like Webster's
SofaPMan: everyone has faith, and uses faith everyday
Atheist142: Hmm, going by your definitions for the words, I suppose I am forced
into it, aren't I? :-)
SofaPMan: yea... but again not my words... i could also use
www.dictionary.com
Atheist142: Yes, I know. I don't agree because to me, faith is believing without
evidence, and nothing I do has no evidence behind it.
SofaPMan: wrong... you didn't have evidence that that chair would
hold you
Atheist142: Prior experience and my knowledge of the structure and purpose of
chairs
SofaPMan: all you had was from evidence that the other chairs... not
that particular one
Atheist142: although I was mistaken in that case, it holds true to this day.
Atheist142: If the chair doesn't look sturdy, I don't sit in it.
SofaPMan: right, but you can't deny the fact that you had faith that
that one chair would hold you... you can't deny it
SofaPMan: and meaning you learned from that experience
Atheist142: I had every reason to believe that it would hold me :-P
Atheist142: I was just wrong! :-)
SofaPMan: right... faith
Atheist142: No, reason.
SofaPMan: reason?... what reason did youhave?
Atheist142: If they are one and the same, then I agree. Because it looked sturdy
and felt sturdy...until the leg collapesd :-)
SofaPMan: do i look sturdy, and do i sound sturdy to you?
SofaPMan: do i sound insane?
Atheist142: Maybe :-)
SofaPMan: really...
Atheist142: no
Atheist142: not really, you sound normal
SofaPMan: then try out Christ... the real way
Atheist142: I have no reason to believe he's "the real way"
SofaPMan: so i'm not reason enough, and your friends aren't reason
enough, and all those in the world who have died for Christ, and all
those whose lives have been changed by him arent reason enough,
then i'll pray long and hard that God will make himself evident to
you
Atheist142: Thanks for the prayers, I think...
Atheist142: :-?
SofaPMan: all im saying is... your reason for believing that chair
would hold you is from every other chair, so why cant your reason
for trying out Christ be from all those who have tried him
Atheist142: Well, I've looked at the Bible and looked at the churches--I'm in a
church choir because I love to sing! I just don't see any reason to believe in
Christ.
SofaPMan: why do you love to sing? if theres nothing to sing for?
Atheist142: I like singing. I dunno, I also like grape jelly.
SofaPMan: yea, but you like grape jelly cause it tastes good, and it
fills you up. y do you like singing
Atheist142: I'm good at it, and the people there are nice people.
Atheist142: Singing and music are my only talents, it just makes me very proud to
do something that pleases others.
SofaPMan signed off at 2:22:24 AM.
SofaPMan signed on at 2:22:29 AM.
SofaPMan: sorry
Atheist142: oh no problem
Atheist142: did you get my last response?
SofaPMan: nope
Atheist142: Singing and music are my only talents, it makes me very proud to do
something well that pleases others.
SofaPMan: oh... cool
SofaPMan: you sound like a christian, because you have the morals
and stuff of one, but you just don' tbelieve
Atheist142: I know christians who have morals less strong than I, it makes me
laugh.
Atheist142: (mwa ha ha)
SofaPMan: those are what i call hypocryates... the greatest single
cause of atheism in the world today
Atheist142: what do you mean?
Atheist142: excuuuse meee?
SofaPMan: hypocrites are the greatest single cause of atheism...
Atheist142: Most atheists are born atheists and never learn religion
Atheist142: Most of the ones that don't defect from religions because they have
rejected that particular faith. A few stop believing because of other people, but
those people shouldn't be atheists and bring us all down.
SofaPMan: what i'm saying is... most atheists look at hypocrite
christians and laugh (like you) and say that they don't need to be
like that and believe in god
Atheist142: Not really.... although it is probably a major thing that prevents
atheists from becoming Christians or Moslems
Atheist142: I know former atheistic Christians though -- they scare me.
Atheist142: :-P
SofaPMan: see... well... its a quote... not really saying it is the
greatest cause
SofaPMan: atheistic christians?
Atheist142: former atheists who became Christians
Atheist142: my grammer is gimpy tonight
SofaPMan: y do they scare you, because they might convert you?...lol
Atheist142: no, they scare me because they are usually the most dogmatic,
fundamentalist, in-your-face Christians.
Atheist142: Scary.
SofaPMan: oh... well i try to make it a point not to be, although i
have been tonight (sorry) Its a major turn-off to most people
Atheist142: no, you haven't.
SofaPMan: really... thats good, but i know its a turn off
Atheist142: They are the people who threaten me with Hellfire and expect me to
actually respond like the people in Chick tracts do..:-P
Atheist142: You've been actually particularly nice to me, thank you for it.
SofaPMan: oh.. i don't like tracts... its like you give 'em to someone,
and then leave them to do it on their own... the whole point is to
guide them and help them along the way
Atheist142: That, plus they are completely unrealistic
Atheist142: I found one in a phone booth once.
Atheist142: I thought it was hilarious, and so did my Catholic friend.
SofaPMan: yea... i like to use my own experience
SofaPMan: not one made up
SofaPMan: i finally have a book for you to read
Atheist142: oooh
SofaPMan: Evidence That Demands a Verdict
Atheist142: hopefully my library has it
SofaPMan: your really gonna read it?
Atheist142: I'm already reading one called "Evidence for God in an Age of
Science" or something
Atheist142: if it doesn't go over my head, sure
SofaPMan: who wrote it?
Atheist142: I don't remember
SofaPMan: oh, is it an atheist author?
Atheist142: I am rather zonked at this hour, dont mind me...no, a Christian
SofaPMan: its okay... if you need to sleep thats cool
Atheist142: It's a pro-Christian anti-atheism book
Atheist142: No, I won't be able to sleep anyways... :-)
SofaPMan: oh... i just now comprehended the title... im slow also
SofaPMan: y?
Atheist142: eh, been kind of insomniacal lately.
SofaPMan: oh... that sucks
Atheist142: yeah, but I've ben getting a lot of work done!
Atheist142: I don't really like it, he doesn't give much info but has a lot of plugfs to
buy his books.
Atheist142: Very quaint!
SofaPMan: read the about josh, and i'm gonna chalenge you to do
the same
SofaPMan: disprove to me that Christ didn't exist, and further more
that Christ's resurection was a hoax
Atheist142: I don't feel the need to.
SofaPMan: and i'll study up also, and try to prove to you that it did
happen
Atheist142: You can believe whatever you want.
SofaPMan: are you scared that you'll find that im right?
Atheist142: I have nothing to prove, nor disprove.
SofaPMan: yea you do... i'm asking you to prove to me that christ
didn't exist
Atheist142: Why?
SofaPMan: i wanna see if you can
Atheist142: I can't do that. There is surprisingly little out on Jewish peasents
during the turn of that particular millenium
Atheist142: I've tried and failed on my own grounds.
SofaPMan: you've tried and failed to prove that christ didn't exist?
Atheist142: I quite frankly don't care if there was a Jesus Christ, because even if
he did exist he didn't neccessarily die for my sins, and he wasn't neccessarily the
Son of God.
Atheist142: I can't prove or disprove that, but I can't believe it until I have proof.
SofaPMan: then was he a lunatic?
SofaPMan: thats what i'm saying look for it
Atheist142: I don't even know if he was alive, and I don't care much.
SofaPMan: would you care for me?
SofaPMan: please
SofaPMan: take as much time as you want
Atheist142: Please don't take offense, I mean this in the nicest way possible
Atheist142: But I have enough to do worrying about my own life, the only one I
have.
SofaPMan: um... i thought your life was good?
SofaPMan: no worries
Atheist142: Good doesn't mean no worries.
Atheist142: I have to work to make it good, but it's good. :-)
SofaPMan: do you have worries?
Atheist142: Yes, I do.
SofaPMan: like what?
Atheist142: Well, right now a friend is mad at me.
SofaPMan: about what?
SofaPMan: am i getting too nosey?
SofaPMan: just tell me if i am
Atheist142: no, you asked this before
Atheist142: :-)
SofaPMan: i did?
SofaPMan: oh the #1 thing
Atheist142: yes, that
Atheist142: she's mad at me, and that's not good.
SofaPMan: maybe it is
Atheist142: But my other friends care about us, and I still care about her, and
things are good there.
SofaPMan: so you really don't have any problems, other than that
Atheist142: My mother is a spazoid, I have lots of big projects due for school/
SofaPMan: oh.. and y dont you love your mom?
Atheist142: Long story, do you want to hear?
SofaPMan: um... i've heard everything else... lol
Atheist142: heh, good point.
SofaPMan: and i bet its not that long
Atheist142: Life story, condensed version:
SofaPMan: is it sad?
Atheist142: I was raised by sitters and grandparents, my mother was this shadow
that popped in every now and then and yelled at us. Now she is this intrusive,
emotionally abusive, clinging leech who works two days a week.
Atheist142: Condensed.
SofaPMan: now i see another reason why you don't believe in God
Atheist142: no.
Atheist142: I get that as soon as I tell anyone that.
Atheist142: That's not why.
SofaPMan: no... i'm not talking about it that wa
SofaPMan: way*
Atheist142: oh okay...
Atheist142: sorry about that, that's the only thing that bugs the heck out of me is
when people think that I'm atheist because of my family situation.
SofaPMan: i mean in the way that your mother never showed you the
love of Christ. One huge reason is that i see the Love of Christ in
the Love my parents have for me
Atheist142: my grandparents loved me very much, and I love them.
SofaPMan: thats good
Atheist142: Although my grandmother passed away last Thanksgiving
SofaPMan: i'm sorry
SofaPMan: so she's done for... no more... fineto
Atheist142: yep...not very cheerful.
SofaPMan: yea... i don't like the ending of the atheists belief
Atheist142: well, some atheists believe in reincarnation
SofaPMan: how?
Atheist142: well, you can believe in a soul even if you don't believe in God
Atheist142: Not many do
SofaPMan: those sound like they're a little confused
Atheist142: yeah really :-)
SofaPMan: so it was your grandparents that took you to church
against your will, and wouldn't let you sleep in on sundays
Atheist142: I wanted to go
SofaPMan: y?
SofaPMan: faith like a child
Atheist142: I believed in God, yep.
Atheist142: I still like it 'cause of choir.
SofaPMan: do they know your an atheist?
Atheist142: no no no, my mom would put me through a wall.
Atheist142: several walls and maybe a floor for some variation
SofaPMan: lol
Atheist142: :-)
SofaPMan: so what do you do, when someone lifts their praises to
God?
SofaPMan: just think of how stupid they are?
Atheist142: I sit there, I listen. I'm in their church, I respect that.
SofaPMan: isn't your mom a new agey christian though?
Atheist142: yes
Atheist142: She is a modified Christian, she believes in God and Jesus but not
Hell
SofaPMan: is that the church you go to
Atheist142: no, she doesn't go to any church, I go to the Methodist one of my
grandparents'.
SofaPMan: weird... how can you believe that
SofaPMan: oh...
SofaPMan: sometimes people just dont want to believe things
Atheist142: Yeah...
SofaPMan: do you still have that website up?
Atheist142: josh.org?
Atheist142: yeah
SofaPMan: do you see the apologetics section?
Atheist142: yes
Atheist142: it's a shameless plug for books
SofaPMan: yep... not shameless
Atheist142: I'm exaggerating :-)
SofaPMan: y don't you get More than just a Carpenter?
SofaPMan: its free, and it proves Christs existence, and resurection...
factually
Atheist142: I have little time and patience.
SofaPMan: not by what your telling me
Atheist142: Plus my draconian mother won't let me enter my address in online.
Atheist142: More the address thing.
SofaPMan: if you have trouble sleeping, and then summers comming
up, and you can spend four or five hours talking to me about this
stuff then surely you could read this book
Atheist142: I could, but I can't put my address in.
SofaPMan: find it somewhere
Atheist142: Pick one book for me to read :-)
Atheist142: One. Just one.
SofaPMan: hold on ... this takes time... just a sec.
SofaPMan: More Than Just a Carpenter By Josh McDowell
Atheist142: That's the one?
SofaPMan: will you realy read it?
Atheist142: Sure.
Atheist142: You're sure now?
SofaPMan: thanks... yep
SofaPMan: i dont think its big either
Atheist142: okies
Atheist142: I can do that.
SofaPMan: thank you
Atheist142: I really hope I don't have to buy it.
Atheist142: I am broke. :-P
SofaPMan: if you have to buy it, then tell me how much it is, and i'll
send you the money
SofaPMan: its free on here though
Atheist142: yes I know, I'd rather get it here
Atheist142: blaaah
SofaPMan: you could ask your mom too, but its too late tonight
Atheist142: no, she'd say no.
SofaPMan: okay, but if you have to pay for it... i'll give you the
money
Atheist142: She thinks someone will find it and come here and steal me away,
although it's not like I'm old enough to lock my doors.......
Atheist142: :-P o well
Atheist142: I'll look
SofaPMan: okay... listen, i'm gonna hit the sack... i' mtired
Atheist142: heh, sure
Atheist142: sweet dreams!
SofaPMan: its been great talking with you, adn i thank you for
talking with me
