Date: July 26, 1997 Where: New York City, US Interviewer: Fang WU (CND)
[Editor's note: The original interview was in Chinese, compiled by Fang WU. The English translation was done by Wei LIN, Ray ZHANG, Haosheng ZHOU, Ron ZHANG and Dong LIU. Proofreaders were Fabian FANG, Ray ZHANG and Bing WEN. Opinions expressed in the interview are those of Ms. TONG Yi, as translated into English by CND volunteers to the best of their ability, and do not necessarily represent those of CND.]
CND: Ms. TONG Yi, I work for CND's Chinese magazine HXWZ and I am glad to meet with you today. Thank you for accepting this interview with CND.
TONG: Thank you. I am also very glad to have an interview with you. I know HXWZ magazine is very influential in the Chinese community.
CND: We have many readers.
TONG: Yes. I hear that every Chinese student with Internet access can read this magazine. So I am very glad to do this interview with you.
CND: Thank you. There are many people who use the computer networks to access news. It's certainly big news that you were able to get out of China. So we would like to take this opportunity to introduce you to our readers and let them know more about you and Mr. WEI Jingsheng. As a matter of fact, you are not entirely a stranger to our readers. We have reported news about you many times. So people already know you. But apart from the fact that you were WEI Jingsheng's secretary, the public does not seem to have a clear idea about you as a person and the role you played in the 1989 Democracy Movement. Can you introduce yourself first?
TONG: O.K. I am from Wuhan, Hubei. I was enrolled into the Political Science Department at China University of Political Science and Law in 1986, after graduating from a very good high school in Wuhan - Huashi Yifuzhong. I majored in political science. That was the time when China was going through a period of unrest. A few months later, the 1986 student movement broke out, followed by another in 1987. Then HU Yaobang stepped down. Those incidents sowed the seeds in the minds of our students.
CND: May I ask? You, a girl, were barely 20 then ...
TONG: Not yet 20.
CND: Not yet 20. Then why did you choose political science?
TONG: Yes, it sounds weird. My high school was strong in the natural sciences and I was good at science subjects. I guess I became interested in international relations and politics because I was then a regular reader of the Internal Reference News(a daily publication of major world news events directly translated from foreign wired stories -ed). It turned out that I was the only one from that school to choose a major in political science. I did it on my own. And I chose to go to China University of Political Science and Law.
As a student in political science, I had to go beyond textbooks to understand some political issues in reality - unlike those majoring in sciences and technologies. They can concentrate on their studies, staying aloof from the current affairs. We were not like that. We were intrigued by new thoughts and ideas in the intellectual circle in Beijing. Back in the 1980s, China was at a peak for cultural enthusiasm. There were a lot of seminars. Schools invited famous scholars to speak. Those activities and events significantly influenced our way of thinking. I guess our view of life and world outlook must have been formed during that period.
CND: So the impact of the time was great on you.
TONG: It was indeed. I was one of the few students who subscribed to the World Economic Herald. I loved the newspaper very much. It carried a lot of avant-garde articles. And the opinions it printed were in-depth and bold. Those stuff would never get into the communist party newspapers and the Guangming Daily. The contributors were liberal-minded intellectuals. I was aware of all this and I was prepared. So when the student movement broke out in 1989, I was not passively dragged in. Instead, I was voluntarily participating.
CND: I heard that you were not only actively involved in the 1989 Democracy Movement but also held some posts. Can you tell us what role you played?
TONG: O.K. China University of Political Science and Law was deeply involved in the 1989 Democracy Movement. The students at this university were either studying political science or the law. They were sensitive to the issue. So their involvement was complete and thorough. When talking about the quality of students as a whole, other schools sometimes call our university a "black horse" from the student movement in 1989... (Laugh)
CND: (Laugh) Jumping out of the blue.
TONG: In fact, according to the investigation conducted by the security departments at various schools, our university won 14 number one's: We were the first to take to the street to mourn HU Yaobang; the first student beaten by armed police was from our school; our school was the the first one to announce a student strike - on April 23; the first chair of the Autonomous University Student Union was from our school ...
CND: Who was that?
TONG: His name is ZHOU Yongjun. The Dialog Delegation was formed at our school, headed by XIANG Xiaoji - my classmate. The list of top marks for our school goes on and on. We made the news - really.
CND: You were in the lead.
TONG: Yes. We were ahead of others. During the dialog [between the students and the government officials -ed] on April 29, for example, the delegates from our school did perhaps the most excellent job. The dialog with YUAN Mu was televised live. Big impact. I heard many students from Peking University were disappointed by the performance of their delegates in the dialog that day, saying they should have learned from our university.
CND: Were you a member of the delegation?
TONG: No, I was not on April 29. My involvement began when I joined our school's publicity team after the students went on strike. We did a good job at HU Yaobang's memorial service on April 22. People were impressed because we were not only good at making public speeches but also good at making sense. Students from other schools asked if we could play a role in the publicity work for the movement. So we formed a publicity team. It was headed by XIANG Xiaoji. On that day it so happened that students from the neighboring Beijing Normal University of Physical Education came over and asked us to speak on their campus. The organizer of that gathering was WANG Zhixin, who was subsequently also on the 21 most wanted list. He picked XIANG Xiaoji and me to speak. I did not know why he chose me.
CND: How old were you at that time?
TONG: I was 21, a third-year student. I guess XIANG Xiaoji got the invitation because he was the champion of the graduate student debate contest at our school. WANG Zhixin might have seen the debate and must be impressed. This might be a reason. Then why me? Perhaps because I won the first prize of the encyclopedical contest in the political science department in December of 1986. WANG Zhixin was also there that day. I guess that was how he got to know us.
Also on that day, I met XIANG Xiaoji, which was later to become an indissoluble bond. I have been following him ever since. The reason why I joined the dialog delegation was because of XIANG Xiaoji. He did an excellent job at the meeting with YUAN Mu on April 29. So people asked him to take care of the dialog delegation. He asked me to help. So I joined it and was a member of the delegation from day one till the delegation was dismissed on June 4 (See XIANG Xiaoji's article: "TONG Yi: The Pride of Dialog Delegation" in HXWZ zk9511c -ed).
CND: Where were you on June 4?
TONG: I was at Fuxingmen when they opened fire that night. I saw the first military truck enter Fuxingmen and drive to the bridge. I was under the bridge with many Beijing residents and saw everything. I was at Fuxingmen from 11:00 that night till 2 o'clock in the morning of June 4.
CND: Was there any shooting at Fuxingmen?
TONG: There was. I saw with my own eyes that two civilians were knocked down in front of me. I witnessed the situation. I saw how military vehicles rolled in, how they burned the buses and removed road blocks. I could never forget those scenes. At the time people were outraged. They shouted slogans and reproved the soldiers for their banditry and hooliganism.
CND: What was your situation in the big purge after June 4? Did you leave Beijing?
TONG: I left Beijing. We took a train at Yongdingmen Railway Station and traveled to Nanjing via Tianjin. I went to my grandmother's home in Wuxi. I didn't go back to Wuhan because my involvement in the movement was deep and voluntary. I attended a series of activities in the dialog delegation - on a daily basis. I took minutes, recording what people said at meetings. I also took notes of daily telephone calls and other type of communications.
CND: What happened to you later on because of your involvement in the 1989 Democracy Movement?
TONG: After the shooting on June 4, classes were all suspended; schools were paralyzed. A full-scale purge started in September, after the new term began. They called it "brain change campaign." It was spread out to all schools.
CND: Did they openly call it that way?
TONG: Yes. Publicly "change brain." Teachers and students must publicly state their positions. And all students must give a daily account of their activities during the period around "June 4." This campaign was administered at all schools across the country.
CND: Did the university authorities openly call it "brain change?"
TONG: Yes. That's what it was called.
CND: Besides undergoing "brain change" along with others, did you have any special treatment?
TONG: The school's security department conducted a special investigation on some "key" student trouble-makers. I was among them. Since the dialog delegation was an inter-university organization, it turned out to be very difficult for them to trace some of the activities. Then they found out that I was the secretary for the dialog delegation, so they followed me closely.
As secretary, I might not have played a big role. But I know the facts and details. So they were after me closely. Not knowing a lot of facts, they pressed me hard for accounts. I guess my major trouble is perhaps the two interviews I did with BBC, one on May 20 when the martial law was declared and the other on May 24. At that time, foreign news services were probably the only source for people in other cities to know the situation on Tiananmen Square and in Beijing. So if you had spoken on a foreign radio, they would chase you.
They did bug me seriously for the two speeches on BBC. For other things, if you don't bite each other and report on each other, nobody would voluntarily confess. It was kind of like a tacit agreement among all those involved. Everybody was acting that way during the investigation.
CND: You were a third-year student in 1989?
TONG: Yes. The purge started when I entered the fourth year. It lasted for a whole term. The public security bureau talked to me a couple of times. The Ministry of Public Security also checked me out on some larger issues. At the time many students were imprisoned one after another. Up to September, I still heard about friends being put into jail. That would usually happen when the school authorities failed to change the student's brain. So they just buzzed the public security bureau and, overnight, the student would be arrested and then thrown into the Qincheng Prison.
CND: Did your involvement in the 1989 movement affect your graduation?
TONG: Not at all. I happened to be lucky. Why? Because, you know, it takes a long time to investigate things in China. Before such a big campaign yielded any results, it was very difficult for them to go ahead to take actions and to process cases. In my case, I graduated in the summer of 1990 but the state education commission's disciplinary measures against those involved in the student movement in Beijing and other parts of the country did not come until the end of 1990. Afterwards I was told that I was given a disciplinary punishment at the school.
CND: So you were a fish that slipped through the net?
TONG: Not exactly. It's just a matter of good timing for me. That is, the bad record did not make it into my file by the time I was graduating. But I was later told to go back to pick up the notice of my disciplinary punishment.
CND: Did you go and pick it up?
TONG: I didn't.
CND: So the record of your disciplinary punishment is still not in your file?
TONG: Right. It is still at the school.
CND: Where did you go after graduation?
TONG: After graduation, I picked up a company that was willing to hire me in name so that I could move my official residency to my home in Wuhan. Without a steady job, I was moving from company to company in the private sector in Beijing.
CND: What kind of companies in the private sector?
TONG: Companies run by liberal-minded intellectuals.
CND: For example?
TONG: Take LI Shengping for example. He is a famous figure in the Democracy Wall Movement. He used to work with CHEN Ziming and WANG Juntao. They split in 1987 and LI started his own research institute. LI was also put into Qincheng after 1989. He was released along with CAO Siyuan and others on May 8, 1990. Shortly after his release, I joined his institute in July. After a while, I did not feel satisfied. So I joined CAO's "Siyuan's Consulting Company for Merger and Bankruptcy." It was during that time when I translated "Crisis in China" by Prof. Andrew Nathan of Columbia University. I did it with a few other friends. I also did the typing and proofreading. By then I was already part of the company.
CND: Is this the reason why Prof. Nathan accepted you to study at Columbia University?
TONG: That's possible. Since I had been corresponding with Prof. Nathan through 1991 and 1992, I should have been no stranger to him.
CND: Was it during 1993 when he made the offer?
TONG: I think it was in March of 1994, since I prepared my application to Columbia University in 1993, going through paper work. Of course I was working on other universities as well. During 1994, I had admission offers from four or five universities.
CND: That was before Mr. WEI Jingsheng's release, right?
TONG: Yes. It was before that.
CND: Then how did you get to know Mr. WEI?
TONG: That's the advantage of being involved in this circle. Friends all knew that I was the one out there who could type and speak English. Politically speaking, they knew that I was for the pro-democracy movement, and willing to do a lot of work. I should say they knew me quite well.
As early as 1989 I became acquainted with a number of well-known intellectuals. That was the time when there were all kinds of seminars between the Ministry of United Front, students, and intellectual elites. So I was no stranger to them. Following that I was quite involved in this circle in Beijing for a long time, so everyone knew me. Later on, Mr. WEI said that he was looking for a reliable person to help him type the letters he wrote in prison into the computer. Friends looked around and decided that I was the one for the job. So they asked me to meet with Mr. WEI.
CND: You had received offers from Columbia and other American universities by then, hadn't you?
TONG: Not yet. I was in the middle of applying. As you know, you need to apply one year ahead to be able to start your study in the following Fall, and normally the admission offer would not be issued until around March. Mr. WEI was released on September 14, 1993. I had submitted applications before his release and was waiting for the decisions. I could not say that I knew for sure that my application would be accepted. I could only say that it was in my plan to go abroad to study.
CND: Did you know anything about WEI Jingsheng and what he did?
TONG: By that time, WEI Jingsheng was a well-known name. There had been some agitation before March of 1989, as you may know. This agitation was reported in the Internal Reference News. It started in January when Prof. FANG Lizhi wrote an open letter to DENG Xiaoping, calling for the release of all political prisoners. The only political prisoner named in the open letter was WEI Jingsheng.
So WEI Jingsheng was very well-known. Following that, two groups of intellectuals and artists presented open letters, signatures, and collective appeals, demanding the release of political prisoners. WEI Jingsheng was mentioned in every open letter. Later on, author XIE Bingxin wrote an explanation on the issue, which was published in the Internal Reference News. It made quite a huge impact because the paper had become easily accessible to the public.
CND: What explanation?
TONG: To explain that XIE Bingxin herself did not know what was actually going on. CHEN Jun was the one who organized the open letter and collected signatures. XIE thought what she signed on was just a call for releasing political prisoners. Then the state security bureau talked to her and told her that CHEN Jun was a member of a reactionary organization, the Democratic Alliance, and that she should not have endorsed the letter. So XIE might have explained herself to the government. And the government made her explanation public. That's my impression.
CND: What I meant was that your age and generation are far apart from those of WEI Jingsheng...
TONG: Yes. With all the relevant publications, we all knew that there was somebody called WEI Jingsheng. At the time a former classmate who was studying in Shanghai wrote me a letter, wondering how a worker from a zoo such as WEI Jingsheng could have access to state secrets and was convicted of leaking those secrets. He wrote me a letter in this regard with the clipping of XIE's article. It was in March. So I had some impression about WEI Jingsheng.
CND: But when you were introduced to WEI Jingsheng, were you aware of the risk and possible consequences?
TONG: Of course I was. But at that time, risk was not so serious. Later on it became more and more serious. When it first started he didn't say that I would be his secretary and work for him. It was only a temporary arrangement to type in his articles. He needed only a reliable typist. So when friends introduced me, it was not assumed that I had to leave my job and work for WEI Jingsheng alone.
CND: Then how did you become his secretary?
TONG: Later on I understood more about him as a person. And having read his letters written in prison - I read them when I was typing in the letters - I couldn't help but admiring him, not only for his courage, but also for his wisdom. He has a lot of political wisdom. So later on I decided to stay and work for him.
CND: So you did foresee the consequence of staying and working with him?
TONG: Yes. There would be some consequences, because right after he was released, especially after October and November, Mr. WEI started frequent contacts with foreign media and boldly expressed his opinions. This was something people I knew in the past would never openly talk about - they might say it privately, but not publicly as what Mr. WEI was doing.
So this job was of high risk. At that time, I received warnings even before I finished the typing part. Police had knocked on my door. I started to see the risk and the consequence of my job more clearly as I went on. But I believe the work was worthwhile. To be honest, it was very rare for China to have such a courageous person as WEI Jingsheng. He is a man. I wanted to treasure the opportunity. So I stayed.
CND: You were lucky working for Mr. WEI. Our impression of Mr. WEI is basically from books and newspapers we read. So our understanding of this man is limited. Could you give us a brief description of your impression about Mr. WEI Jingsheng?
TONG: O.K. When I saw him the first time, he simply looked to me as a prisoner through and through. Yes. That's true, because his face was swollen, and his movements were slow, like this, do you know?
CND: It is said that he lost all his teeth.
TONG: Yes. He lost all teeth. So when you just looked at his physical self, you felt that he might be a creature from Mars. He was curious about everything, because he had been in isolation for a long time. That's my first impression. He didn't say much on that day. It was just a brief meeting to introduce each other and decide whether I should work for him and how. Very basic stuff. The whole thing was done with a few words. Then I started my job on October 25 when I began typing and reading his letters written in prison.
CND: Was it at his home?
TONG: Yes. His home had two units, one occupied by his father and the other by his younger brother, which was allocated to his father as a complementary unit. Before Mr. WEI was released, his young brother lived in the second unit. That place was relatively quiet. So Mr. WEI had his computer equipment, books and drafts all moved to that place. He did not want too much disturbance and did not want to meet guests there. So it was a place for writing and typing.
Through reading those letters, I found a real man - a true WEI Jingsheng. He had the guts to face the communists under such harsh and perilous conditions and bravely spoke out on what he wanted to say. For all those years I had not seen anyone else who could be a close match. I was totally astonished. It was indeed an astonishing experience to discover his moral standing, his wisdom, and his knowledge. Later on I read again his article "About the Fifth Modernization, Democracy, and Other Aspects" which was published during the Democracy Wall period. I was even more astonished: Not only the ideas were excellent, also the writing style... (See HXWX zk9612b: "Selected Writings of Wei Jingsheng" -ed).
CND: Did he write those articles in the seventies?
TONG: Exactly! However, reading them in the nineties I could still feel that they are relevant - not at all obsolete.
CND: I guess you were still young when he wrote these articles.
TONG: I was ten then. I was born in 1968. He wrote them in 1978. Although I wasn't that small, I wasn't aware of the situation - it was impossible to know it, right? So when I read these articles in 1993, I was especially astonished. Writing in such a direct and forceful style in the late 1970s and raising the issues in such a way - it was truly extraordinary of the writer.
Even in 1989, I don't think there were anything comparable to his 1979 articles. At least, from what I saw among the many big-character posters in 1989 and others, I have never seen anything like his articles. No one ever raised the issues this way. "The Fifth Modernization," what a slogan, very resonant, easy to grasp and so much in line with what happened in China. Since China has always been talking about the four modernizations, his demand for the fifth modernization is in itself so unforgettable.
CND: Where do you think Mr. WEI got his knowledge, wisdom and his insights?
TONG: I feel that he may have benefited from the fact that he did hard thinking during the Cultural Revolution, and from his reflections on the experience of the Cultural Revolution. Secondly, he is a diligent reader and is intrigued by the philosophical issues in social science. Thirdly, he benefited from his natural gifts. He is highly talented. While he was still at the subsidiary school of the People's University, he won in the middle school category of the Beijing City writing contest. The winner of the high school category was KE Yunlu who later became a well-known writer. This shows that his writing was excellent even when he was a youngster.
He wrote well and fast. His teachers truly thought well of him. This may be a natural gift. For his insight and interest in politics, it may have to do with his family members who serve as high ranking officials. He was brought up in a particular environment. For an ordinary family, having to make ends meet would not leave them much energy to devote to politics. But he had some exceptionally advantageous conditions in which he grew up among high ranking officials and was exposed to a lot of information, which in turn made him think more. So politically he matured quite early.
CND: The period between Mr. WEI's release and his second imprisonment coincided with U.S. extension of the Most Favored Nation (MFN) status for China, Beijing's bidding to host the Year 2000 Olympic Games, as well as hot issues such as the Tibetan Independence. As the one who worked with him closely at the time, what do you know about his views on those issues?
TONG: I certainly know about his views. First of all, Mr. WEI believes in the effectiveness of international pressures, without which he couldn't have been released a single day earlier. He has never pleaded guilty. Chinese Justice Minister CHAI Cheng mentioned it to the foreigners a year before. For instance, KANG Yuan had asked him if it was possible for an earlier release of WEI Jingsheng. The Justice Ministry's reply was that there was absolutely no such possibility.
CND: Who is KANG Yuan?
TONG: KANG Yuan [John Kamm -ed] is the chairman of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong. He has done a lot of work in promoting human rights [in China -ed]. He has opportunities to meet with top-level Chinese leaders. In his private endeavor to promote human rights - for instance, in early 1993 - he mentioned Mr. WEI's name. Back then, the news he got about Mr. WEI did carry lots of weight. So why did they say they wouldn't release him? Because WEI Jingsheng never pleaded guilty -- in their words, never bowed his head, never chickened out.
In those long fourteen and a half years of his imprisonment, Mr. WEI's condition was barely known to the outside world. Rumor once had it that he became insane. To the outside world he was a very mysterious person. Few people knew about the fate of the person who first brought up the concept of democracy modernization and warned about the dictatorship of DENG Xiaoping. So naturally he was the focus of attention. Also, he was an open dissident in its true sense.
CND: So you believe that his early release...
TONG: It definitely had a lot to do with the Olympic Games and international pressures. So the first thing he said after getting out is about this effectiveness of international pressures. He said people like WANG Dan, XU Wenli, WEI Jingsheng, ZHAI Weiming and WU Xuechan would have never been released in that year if there was no enough pressure. These people were all released, regardless of their jail terms. This shows that under international pressures the CCP was probably calculating its gains or losses to use these dissidents to cut a good deal.
In 1993, another event was the inauguration of President Clinton. In his campaign for the presidency against President Bush, he was very critical of President Bush's China Policy. I remember he said something to the effect that President Bush tolerated the butchers of Tiananmen Square. In his inauguration speech he also mentioned the U.S. stand on promoting democracy around the world. He said to people in any country who are promoting democracy: you are not alone; you have the support of the United States -- something like that. I read about it.
The CCP must have felt some great pressure, definitely greater than during the Bush administration. So in order to win the bid to host the 2000 Olympic Games, nine days before the vote [of the International Olympic Committee -ed], they suddenly announced the release of WEI Jingsheng.
Later on Mr. WEI told us about what had happened. It was in the early morning of September 14, 1993. Like usual, he probably was not even up -- he was a late riser in prison -- but the word came: "Hey, Lao WEI! Pack up your stuff, this time we are sending you home for real." He was taken by surprise. It was not expected that they would let him off. He had been preparing for sitting through the full prison term, for it would be just another half-year before it was supposed to end.
Who would have thought that he could get out for just half a year earlier. So they said, "Pack things up." And so he did. Mr. WEI demanded to take with him the letters he wrote in prison. The authorities refused it. But WEI Jingsheng insisted on it, saying that he would not leave if those letters were not returned to him and that he would not hesitate to put his life on the line. They finally had to agree, for they were hurrying to take some video footage to make the announcement. CCTV reported the news that evening...
CND: So everything was already prepared?
TONG: Definitely. I saw everything that evening - how he walked out of the prison gate, how he got into the car, and how he signed the paperwork. WEI Jingsheng appeared to be very happy to put his signature there, the signature to acknowledge his release. But he never signed the termination letter of regret. He signed the release document only.
CND: What is a termination letter of regret?
TONG: It is one of the documents a prisoner must sign upon release. WEI Jingsheng refused to sign it. He was firm on this matter. Then the policemen from the First Division of the Beijing Public Security Bureau (PSB) came to pick him up from Tang Shan's Nan Pu Prison. They drove him back to Beijing. About dusk, they arrived at the San Huan Boulevard when the police were told not to take Mr. WEI home because there was a huge crowd at his door. Many were foreign journalists stationed in Beijing and Hong Kong and Taiwan journalists. His front yard was literally packed with people.
The cops said they didn't want to handle that situation and decided to go undercover. So they took him to a hotel run by the Beijing PSB in the suburb where they stayed for several days. They took him around to see things, chatted about what was going on outside and prepared him for any possible questions. The cops had hoped that the excitement would subside in a couple of days. But those journalists just would not want to give up. They camped out there waiting. CCTV had announced his release. But his family did not see him. Finally the cops gave up after six days of holding him up, since it appeared that the journalists were taking shifts 24 hours a day to wait for him at the door of his home.
What are the reasons for this kind of great sensation? I guess for one thing Mr. WEI is the first person who saw through the mask of DENG Xiaoping very early. He is the first one to predict that DENG would be a dictator taking totalitarian or violent means to suppress democracy -- DENG proved to be just that in the events of 1989, so people got more interested in WEI Jingsheng. Another reason is, WEI Jingsheng had been in solitary confinement all along, nothing about him in the prison was known to the outside world.
For a long time he became a legendary and mysterious figure, and people really wanted to see what he was like. So those journalists had great interest that kept them waiting for him. The government found no way out. How could they announce his release but keep holding him up? What effect such an act would have on the voting by the Olympic Committee Members? So they let Mr. WEI go home on the 20th.
CND: Did Mr. WEI oppose unconditional MFN for China when he was released? Also, did he support Beijing's bid for hosting the 2000 Olympic Games?
TONG: Mr. WEI did state his position on the Olympic Games issue after he got out of the prison. I think what he said was that he, as an ordinary sports fan in China, would not hold anything against it if the Olympic Committee chose to have the games in China. He made that kind of comments before the voting took place. On the issue of MFN, he was quite clear that he was against unconditional renewal of China's MFN status. He said that many times.
CND: What is his reasoning?
TONG: He thinks that conditional renewal of MFN status will help improving China's human rights situation greatly. The release of himself as well as many other dissidents and political prisoners proved this point well.
CND: Mr. WEI seems very concerned about the Tibet issue. Is he for Tibet Independence?
TONG: No. You have a wrong impression. I am afraid you didn't quite get the point of the letter Mr. WEI wrote to DENG Xiaoping in 1992. Why was he particularly concerned about the Tibet issue? Because his girl friend before 1979, Ping Ni, is a Tibetan. Their relationship lasted for five years. Ping Ni's father, Phuntsog Wanggyal, is the founder of the Tibetan Communist Party. But as the Dalai Lama left China in 1959, the Chinese government made Phuntsog Wanggyal a scapegoat and put him in the Qincheng Prison in 1960. He was not released until 1978.
So WEI Jingsheng knew well the unfortunate background of Ping Ni, and naturally became concerned about the life and fate of the Tibetan people. He once took the entrance exam for graduate studies at the Ethnology Institute of the Academy of Social Sciences. His scores were pretty good. On the subject of Ancient Chinese Language, he got the top score. However he was not admitted due to other people getting ahead of him via back door relationships.
CND: What year was that?
TONG: 1977 or 1978, when the Academy of Social Sciences began to recruit graduate students. His Classical Chinese is excellent. The Chinese edition of his letters from prison will soon be published. You can take a look at his writing style. He used many idioms. It's unusual for someone who doesn't have higher education to use those idioms. At least I was quite surprised when I read those letters. Very few wrongly written characters either. I admire him very much for his mastery of the Chinese language. Inside the prison it is difficult to get hold of any newspapers or magazines. It's especially impressive that he could produce quality writings under such a totally isolated condition.
CND: Let's get back to the Tibet issue.
TONG: Speaking of Tibet, WEI Jingsheng thinks that it is possible the Dalai Lama was probably seeking Tibet Independence at the beginning. But geopolitically, Tibet is a land-locked region, along the Qinghai Tibet High Plateau, where natural resources are particularly scarce. So in terms of the belonging relations, Dalai Lama, from his own point of view, has in recent years given up the idea of Tibet independence. I guess you guys abroad must know more about it.
This is WEI Jingsheng's understanding. He thinks that the Chinese government has deliberately twisted the meaning of Dalai's words and then started its propaganda machines to accuse the Dalai Lama of advocating Tibet independence. Actually Dalai didn't appeal to the international community for Tibet's independence. Rather, he was demanding full autonomy for Tibet, asking the Chinese government to respect the traditional Tibetan culture and religious belief and allow Tibetans to live in their way of living.
Mr. WEI knew clearly the distinction. He realized that the government propaganda was vicious in instigating hatred among Han Chinese against the Tibetan spiritual leader. The fact is in recent years Dalai has changed his view on Tibet independence which he was consistently promoting in the past. His tone has softened considerably. Later I heard from Americans that for the Dalai Lama to make such a change it took great courage. It's a real problem. Tibet is confined by its geopolitical limits. It either sides with India or stays with China. It has to choose one.
Due to its limited resources, it's impossible for Tibet to become totally independent. Another point WEI Jingsheng wanted to make in the letter is his unhappiness about the CCP's current Tibet policy. It is pushing more Tibetans to turn against the CCP authorities, pushing them to get away from mainland China. The root of the secession issue is the dictatorship of the CCP, rather than the activities of the Dalai Lama abroad to advocate secession. The relationship between cause and effect was made very clear in that letter. I think it is quite impressive for him to make such an in-depth analysis of the Tibet issue with very limited resources. His judgment was based on his good understanding of Tibetan problems.
CND: That letter was carried in Hua Xia Wen Zhai a few years ago. [See HXWZ zk9401b: "Tibetan Special Edition" -ed]
TONG: Perhaps people did not quite get the meaning of the letter. It's also because the CCP propaganda machines were trying to twist his views and to mislead the public. Mr. WEI was never for Tibet independence. He said due to geographical limitations it would be difficult for Tibet to be independent. Had it had a sea port, abundant resources, well developed cultural and educational infrastructure, Tibet might become an inland state like Switzerland. But it isn't like that. So one cannot force it to become an independent state. It is not Dalai who made Tibet want to split from China. It is the CCP. The CCP's inappropriate Tibet policy has fostered an anti-Han sentiment among Tibetans.
CND: Now may I ask you to talk about Mr. WEI's second arrest? What led to it and what happened around the time?
TONG: I want to emphasize that the arrest of WEI Jingsheng was closely related to his meeting with U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Shuttuck on February 27, 1994. Mr. Shuttuck was the Assistant Secretary in charge of human rights, democracy and labor affairs in the U.S. Department of State. His visit to Beijing was to prepare for the March 11, 1994 visit by U.S. Secretary of State Christopher. He arranged the meeting with us through the U.S. Embassy before his arrival on February 27. So that day we went to meet with him. I participated in the meeting as an interpreter. Both parties enjoyed the talk, which covered MFN status as well as the human rights issues.
CND: Was the meeting held inside the U.S. Embassy?
TONG: No. It was in a restaurant at the Grand China Hotel [Zhongguo Dafandian in Chinese -ed] near the International Trade Building [Guomao Dasha in Chinese -ed]. It went on for about forty-five minutes, and it was productive. During the meeting Mr. Shuttuck stated that the U.S. government highly valued Mr. WEI's opinions. He told Mr. WEI that his article in the Editorial page of the New York Times on November 18, 1993, titled "The Wolf and the Lamb," had a great deal of resonance in the U.S. political circle on Chinese issues. November 18 was the day when JIANG Zemin met with Clinton. The U.S. Senate distributed WEI's article internally, which made a great impact in the U.S. Congress.
Later on, a few important American political figures, such as House Representative Smith, also met with Mr. WEI during their visits to China. Those meetings were not reported by the press and the CCP didn't know either at the time. Mr. Smith met WEI Jingsheng in January, 1994. Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts met him on January 13. There were quite a few meetings like that. However, the CCP learned about the February 27 talk between Shuttuck and WEI Jingsheng just in time to be alarmed and panicked. The CCP took the symbolic meaning of those meetings as the U.S. support of WEI Jingsheng. That message was very clear.
During the meeting Mr. Shuttuck asked a key question, which was not reported in the press; but I will always remember it. I think Mr. WEI's answer was full of political wisdom and was, to a certain extent, prophetic. He asked the United States to understand the political operation procedures of the Chinese government. The question Mr. Shuttuck asked was: Mr. WEI, under the current circumstances, do you think it's more important to exert the pressure on the Chinese government or to provide direct support for democracy advocates and dissidents like yourself? I don't think that was a light question to ask. It means that the U.S. government was looking at real effect - not only supporting you morally, but also methodologically seeking some concrete means to deliver the support that will best improve China's human rights situation and advance the democracy movement in China.
Mr. WEI's reply to the question was: They were both very important; but under the current circumstances it would be more important to keep the pressure on the Chinese government. Without that no direct support to the Chinese dissidents would ever get into China. That was a very realistic analysis, wasn't it? Direct support without pressures on the Chinese government would probably put those dissidents in a very dangerous position. That was the implicit meaning of his answer. So when Mr. Shuttuck asked Mr. WEI what kind of message he wished to convey to President Clinton, Mr. WEI said: On the human rights issue, when you talk to the Chinese government, you must be at least as firm as the Chinese government in your stand.
The answer was quite operational. Notice the wording, "as firm as" and "at least." To be firm one must have real power. Power talks in politics. Without talking about power one cannot talk about success or failure - one doesn't even have a chance to success, right? So when this event was exposed - just as Mr. Shuttuck was about to leave Beijing for Shanghai - in the morning of March 4, three plain-clothed policemen took WEI Jingsheng away.
They didn't ask him to sign anything until they got to the public security bureau where Mr. WEI was asked to sign a detention document. At noon he called me from there instructing me to cancel all appointments for the day and the day after. As soon as I got this clear confirmation of his whereabouts, I called some foreign journalists as well as the U.S. Embassy. That was some dangerous signal, wasn't it? With WEI's status, they wouldn't detain him easily; but once they got him in, they wouldn't let him walk out easily either, right? That's common sense. Many people were outraged at the news. Foreign media reported it. The U.S. State Department condemned it. Human rights organizations demanded that Christopher cancel his visit to China if WEI Jingsheng was not released.
The pressure was on. Then at 12:20pm on March 5, I got a call from WEI Jingsheng from Changping [far northern suburb county of Beijing -ed]. He told me he was no longer in detention and that I should tell the press about this news. He said that he would chat with a friend privately in the afternoon so he wouldn't be back until the evening hours. I immediately informed the press.
CND: So that proved what Mr. WEI said to Shuttuck about pressures, did it?
TONG: Yes. Keeping the pressure was effective. Without the pressure he wouldn't be able to get out. Later on Mr. WEI told me: they had already asked him to buy tooth brush, tooth paste and soap; and he thought he would stay there for at least a week. The Chinese government created a crisis for themselves right before Christopher's visit and they were also faced with the problem of how to solve this crisis. When the international pressure was on, the CCP was forced to compromise - at least in formality. Looking back now, it was really just a compromise in formality. Actually his freedom of movement was restricted, he was under control. The U.S. government should have seen the danger then. I was not happy with what the U.S. had done.
CND: What did they do?
TONG: They were unlinking human rights with trade and extending China's MFN status unconditionally, while Mr. WEI was reported missing and in prison. If you didn't intend to support WEI Jingsheng in the first place, that would be fine - we could work our way out gradually. We could do without your support, right? We could pace our steps - at least we wouldn't be wound up that quickly.
But since you had already taken the first step to support, your failure to follow through with the next steps (and, worse, your back paddling) would endanger the most prominent and influential dissident who had already paid dearly in his life. You could have done nothing; you could have not come over to meet him, you could have shown him no symbolic support. We could do it ourselves. As dissidents we certainly want to accumulate as much strength as possible. The more, the better. It doesn't matter where the source is - domestic or international, right?
If you, the international side, didn't want to fulfill your duty to support, you shouldn't have actively arranged the meeting with WEI Jingsheng. What happened was that you went ahead to meet with WEI Jingsheng and then stopped there without any back-up support; to make things worse, you adopted a policy to unlink human rights with trade. This simply undid all the pressure kept on the CCP for so long. It was gone just like that. What was left were the dissidents on the chopping board of the CCP. It could do whatever it wanted with those people in its grip - sentence them the way it wanted and jail them as long as it wanted to.
CND: When was Mr. WEI arrested again?
TONG: It was on April 1, 1994. When we were driving from Tianjin to Beijing on the highway, we were stopped by at least seven or eight police cars waiting at Daxing and Tongxian intersection. They took him away. Then it was detention and interrogation. I informed the press immediately.
CND: So they didn't arrest you at the time?
TONG: No, they didn't. They let me go.
CND: Mr. WEI was released very quickly after he was detained in March.
TONG: Right, he was released the next day. That afternoon all they did was just to advise him to leave Beijing so that they wouldn't get into a difficult situation should the Americans ask to meet with WEI Jingsheng. Mr. WEI considered their point of view and made some compromise. So he agreed to leave Beijing. The explanation I had for the press on March 6 was that Mr. WEI wasn't feeling well and he was leaving Beijing to rest. Of course, that wasn't true. It was just some concession that Mr. WEI voluntarily made to avoid a bigger confrontation.
Mr. WEI's bottom-line was well defined: There is no doubt about our goal to fight for freedom of speech and to see to it that the political opposition forces grow mature and strong. But operationally and tactically we must make concessions if necessary - especially in emergency situations. Right? That was why I made up an excuse that Mr. WEI had to leave Beijing for health reasons.
CND: So did he go to Tianjin?
TONG: I didn't tell people where he had gone.
CND: So he was outside of Beijing and was arrested on his way back to Beijing.
TONG: Yes. It was on his way back to Beijing.
CND: Then? Did he ever come back after being intercepted on his way home?
TONG: He never made it back. Three days later I was arrested. [See the article "WEI Jingsheng Missing, TONG Yi Arrested" in HXWZ zk9511c: special issue on WEI Jingsheng and TONG Yi. -ed]
CND: So what were the charges? What was the conviction that gave him a 14-year sentence?
TONG: It was "Crime of Conspiracy to Overthrow the Government." In fact that wasn't the case at all. He never had the slightest intention to have a conspiracy to overthrow the government. This is just to give a dog an ill name so that you could hang it - a dirty trick the CCP plays all the time.
What does it take to overthrow a government? Doesn't it entail actual strength? Doesn't it entail violence? How could a person overthrow a government with expressions of some opinions? Furthermore, Mr. WEI never liked conspiracy. If he wanted to say something, he would say it openly. He said that conspiracy would be easily used by the authorities as excuses to crack down on dissidents and that it would also be difficult for the public to accept. The most powerful way to fight is to openly exercise your so called constitutional rights, i.e., the freedom of expression, association, congregation, and demonstration. Use these rights.
Of course, he didn't agree with the so-called four cardinal principles stipulated in the constitution. So in a certain sense, he was challenging the current system - but not for the purpose of overthrowing it. It has been so difficult to promote democracy in China. Let's be realistic. The Chinese democracy movement has never been strong enough to overthrow the Chinese government. So I think the approach he has taken is very peaceful and mild. (To be continued ...)
Part 2
CND: Have you ever had any contact with Mr. WEI since he was arrested?
TONG: No.
CND: Any direct or indirect contact?
TONG: No. I could only sense his way of handling the situation through the line of questioning during the interrogation. The Pre-trial Interrogator, a former school mate from China University of Political Science and Law, told me something during the process. He was also the Director of Division One.
CND: What did you sense from the interrogation?
TONG: For example, they said this to me: "We know WEI Jingsheng doesn't really care about what's going to happen to him. What about you? Are you going to follow his example?" The words meant to be intimidating. Through what they said, I could imagine how firmly Mr. WEI was holding his stand. In a way, he passed on to me this message. That was what I got from him and I would hold my grounds just as firmly. Right?
CND: After he was sentenced, his family went to visit him. Did they know whether he was abused mentally as well as physically?
TONG: For sure there was mental torment. Once one's freedom is restricted, on top of solitary confinement, he for sure would suffer a great deal mentally. It would be extremely torturing for any normal person to be confined in an isolated environment for a long time. Needless to say. As far as physical torture, I don't know specifically. I suppose the CCP would not handle a character like him with this kind of abuse. If so, it would be too stupid.
CND: What did he look like when his family saw him?
TONG: I feel he most likely looked worse and worse. As I mentioned just now, WEI Jingsheng was in very poor health when he was first released. He was swollen all over. His face always showed a steely and greenish tone. It was never completely pale nor did it show any redness. It was getting better later. I first met him when he had been out of jail for about a month. He didn't look well at all. He had only six teeth left and was often troubled by heart ailment. I had seen him faint and pass out while he was speaking. He had to take fast-relief medication right away.
He had serious cardio-coronary condition, was also plagued by arthritis, as well as stomachic and intestinal illness. His nerve channels were all blocked. He was extremely sensitive to cold temperature. These are the physical symptoms as a result of torture over an extended period. When Mr. WEI was first put into prison, he was a very strong young man in excellent shape, free of any illness. Fourteen years of confinement left him with all kinds of illness. Apart from that, heart disease is very unpredictable. Heart condition has a lot to do with the patient's emotional state. Suppression and depression are both conditions causing attacks of heart illness. So I can imagine what he is like at the moment. I know he was beaten last month. I was told that he had to use his hand to help straighten his neck after the abuse. It reached such a horrible degree.
CND: Who beat him?
TONG: Inmates in his cell.
CND: It has always been this way, right?
TONG: It still shocks me that they dared use this method to deal with him. Since WEI Jingsheng has already become a famous character, it would be reasonable to assume that he wouldn't be physically abused by this inmate-abuse-inmate method. I have never heard about this before. When Mr. WEI Jingsheng was first put into jail, they seemed to have incited other inmates to beat him. But he was strong enough to subdue the abuser. But then it at least wasn't like now: Five or six of them abusing him at once! He is extremely weak right now and is not able to put up any kind of resistance. This kind of situation is extremely worrisome.
CND: What can we do to help him from overseas?
TONG: I believe that the only way that could have some effect is to generate pressure through the U.S. government. If the U.S. government doesn't intend to be serious about it, the Chinese government will do whatever they want in this regard. The overseas media have been helpful through continuous appeals, drawing attention to what happens to WEI Jingsheng. The relevant information is now widely accessible to the general public in China through Voice of America, Radio France, British Broadcasting Corporation and Radio Free Asia, raising concerns about his fate. This is also a way to rescue him. We can't afford to ignore it.
CND: Let's come back and talk about you now. How long did you serve as Mr. WEI Jingsheng's secretary?
TONG: About half a year. Approximately one hundred and sixty days.
CND: How did this half year of work affect you?
TONG: The direct impact on me is the loss of freedom for two years and a half, as well as exile in disguise for eight to nine months inside China. Throughout those months, freedom was only in name, and in reality I had no freedom at all.
CND: They sent you to Education through Labor. What was the charge?
TONG: The charge was the so-called falsifying official stamp.
CND: What stamp were accused of falsifying?
TONG: The whole matter had to do with my involvement in 1989. At that time, the State Education Commission issued a policy for controlling problem students. The policy stipulated that problem students could not study abroad. A friend went out of his way to pay someone to make an imitation official stamp of the university, trying to help me. But the stamp was too poor in quality and was no good at all. Later on I forgot all about the matter and even forgot to throw away the stamp. When the police searched my home, they found it. That became the authorities' evidence against me and I was consequently convicted. I have certainly never thought that I was free of any errors in this matter. However, my biggest error was that I let them have that stamp at that time. How come? I just couldn't figure out why.
CND: So they sent you to Education through Labor not because of your work relation with WEI Jingsheng.
TONG: Right. This is a very shrewd way of dealing with it.
CND: But this happened after Mr. WEI Jingsheng was arrested for the second time.
TONG: Right. It was after that.
CND: Then they charged you on something that happened in 1989?
TONG: Yes. It was regarding what happened in 1989. I believe that I was responsible for that matter and accepted the responsibility. I didn't tell them about my friend. Yet had it been anyone else, the utmost punishment would be some fine and it would have been over in accordance with the then prevailing judiciary practices in China. It would never have come to a term of two and a half years.
That was ridiculous. The authorities just wanted to find an excuse to prosecute. But then they looked at what they had. Guess what, they didn't even have enough to justify an arrest. If they had to go for a public trial, it would make them look really out of control and awful. So they handed me an "Education through Labor" instead. Actually even if they convicted me, it should be no more than one year imprisonment. A case such as mine was a very minor offense. Generally I should have been exempted from punishment, or should not have been convicted. What I got was really meant to clear all accounts with me.
CND: Where were you sent for "Education through Labor"?
TONG: I was sent to Hewan Institute of Education through Labor in Wuhan.
CND: Sent you back to Wuhan from Beijing?
TONG: Right. And it was after I presented my appeal. I suppose they didn't want me to make trouble in Beijing, so they sent me right back to Wuhan to root out any effect in Beijing.
CND: Can you roughly describe the conditions while you were educated through labor in Wuhan? Over here we have heard that you were beaten up, forced to work overtime, and so on. Can you describe in details?
TONG: Yes. You know that I was jailed for political reasons. I had met many students who were jailed in Qincheng Prison since 1989, and had some knowledge of their conditions there. Later Mr. WEI was also released, and so were some other political prisoners. They told me about their experience. I did have some general idea. However when I got in, I was really shocked. Why was I shocked? Because when I was in the detention center, I was told by people there that things should be easier in prison than in the detention center.
On top of that, China published the "Imprisonment Act" on December 29, 1994. On that day, I read through this "Imprisonment Act" carefully, and went through all the fine points, including protection of prisoners' rights, compensation for labor, work load limits not exceeding those implemented in similar enterprises outside, eight-hour working days with allowance for holidays, which meant a holiday should be a holiday, confinement or not. So the "Education through Labor" as I understood should be much easier than life in prison.
I realized that the reality was completely different, extremely cruel. The moment one got there, while I only arrived in the afternoon, they made me work that night. Usually I worked till 10 o'clock, sometimes till 10:30 pm. Then they called the roll before allowing us to go to bed. Those who couldn't finish their quota had to stay up to work overtime. One needs to know that the quota was set so that the majority, 99 percent, couldn't have made it. That was the way that they extort our labor, make a profit and control every minute of our time.
CND: What kind of work did you do?
TONG: When I got there, my job was breaking cloth for fabric. I don't know if you know what that is. Cotton cloth has certain fabric pattern, right? You pick out fabrics, just like wool fabric, and make cotton yarn from it. Where does cotton yarn come from? It's made by breaking the cloth into fabric, by human hands. This was what I was doing at that time. They wanted me to break two Jin (equivalent to one kilogram) of cloth into fabrics. Some cloth was so hard to break, like a dead knot, there was no way to pull the fabric out. So what could you do? We had to use nails. Sometimes it cut into our flesh. There was absolutely no way one could make the quota. That was the way they extorted our labor, in order to increase profit margin for those "Education through Labor" and "Reform through Labor" institutions, to sustain the machine of violence. For this reason, I very much approve of the work done by Mr. Harry Wu in this area, to expose this system of "education through labor" and "reform through labor".
I suffered both emotionally and physically. I just couldn't take this kind of humiliation anymore. Why should I work for twelve hours while the "Imprisonment Act" said I only had to work for eight. That meant I had no time at all to read books or newspapers. I could not accept this: No radio, no TV, completely isolated from the outside world. This is absolutely slavery. Later on I was beaten up also because I refused to work at night. The so-called overtime. To put it nicely, it was "overtime," never mentioning that it was twelve hours or eighteen hours we had put in. They always called it "overtime," due to "failure in making the work quota, so finish it through overtime work." This was particularly deceptive.
I refused to do it. Then they instigated those so-called "secondary cadres," who were chosen from among inmates to monitor other inmates' work, to beat me up with punches and kicks. The first day I was beaten by two, the second day by a dozen. My nose was blue and my face swollen. Bruises were all over my body. A piece of skin was peeled off my face. The following day I wrote a letter to my mother. Later this letter got out.
CND: We carried the story in HXWZ. [See HXWZ ZK9511c: A Special Issue on WEI Jingsheng and TONG Yi -ed]
TONG: You published it? The outside world raised some concerns later. No more beatings following that. Police officers were also alarmed. It would be quite damaging to their reputation, since they allowed inmates at the "Education through Labor" to beat up one another and they walked by the scene pretending not seeing it, and didn't intervene at all. This was encouragement and appeasement in disguise. Two inmates beat me up first. I went to talk to a police officer on duty and told him that those people beat me up and asked him if he was going to intervene. That officer wouldn't intervene at all. He said: "It served you right, why didn't you finish your quota? If you didn't work, you deserve to be beaten up."
That was the way they handled such matters. Then I told him that I wouldn't work at night even if they would beat me to death. I spoke in front of these inmates publicly and asked them if they knew their rights? I asked if they knew that they should work no more than eight hours. These were extorting labor in disguise. I told them that although my status was the same as theirs I dared to stand up and fight back. Many inmates wept right there. Many sympathized with me underneath.
Thanks to those who sympathized with me, my letter could eventually get out of the prison. They took the letter and passed it on to their visiting relatives and got it to my mother. If it were not for such sympathy, my letter would have never been brought out. If it had not got out, my luck would have been much worse. If there didn't exist such direct pressure on the Hewan Institute of Education through Labor, I am afraid that they would have continued allowing such incidence of inmates beating inmates to happen, putting inmates' life and personal safety in jeopardy. International pressure is useful. This is a lesson.
CND: It is so.
TONG: Later, someone talked to me and said that "a wise man does not fight when the odds are against him." I was advised to compromise. My mother told me the same thing when she visited me. So I compromised for four months. Then on May 15, I said that I completed my quota. The cotton cloth was relatively easy to break that day. I did my one-kilogram quota and wanted to read at night. But the guy on duty stole my book. I reported to the police officer, telling him that I had done my quota and was entitled to reading at night. He said that you did your quota, but what about the quotas you owed from before? Shouldn't you work overtime then? Such was the reasoning he gave me. Then forget it. There would be no time for me to read books anyway? Not only I lost my personal freedom, but also my labor had to be exploited. This was really too much. I absolutely could not accept that. After May 15, I started reading every night. They took away my newspaper, then took away my books. I just sat there, refusing to work. My stand was firm. Then on July 10, they gave my mother some warning.
CND: Why?
TONG: They said that TONG Yi refused to work overtime. Problem number one was my refusal to work overtime. Number two was my refusal to sing red songs such as "Socialism is good" and "There'd be no New China if it were not for the Communist Party." I was telling myself that if I wanted to sing, why wouldn't I sing outside. Why should I wait until I got into prison to sing? Isn't this serious personal humiliation? If I compromised on this point, then I would not be myself, right? There was no way I was going to sing those songs! My rebelliousness was especially high at that point.
That kind of insult was really unbearable. Every day we had to sing before our meals. We could only eat after singing, like a religious routine. It was also like dancing "Loyalty Dance" during the Cultural Revolution. Looking at the portrait of Chairman Mao and yelling "Long Live" for three times. Why would I want to do it? I had enough of the communist system and I had been deeply hurt by it. And in the end I had to sing praises to the communist party? It was absolutely impossible. I might compromise on other things, but this one was definitely out of the question.
Here was my problem number three: I didn't attend ideological education classes. To tell you the truth, those police officers were quite low in their education level. None of them had gone through a regular university. Most were graduates from colleges sponsored by the political judiciary system. In terms of what they taught in those classes, I had learned them all in my undergraduate years, not to mention that they talked about some "patriotism education." Do you know how they talked about patriotism?
CND: How?
TONG: I stopped going after I attended the first class. Why? You know how they taught patriotism? They said that "patriotism has its class characteristics: there is capitalist patriotism and proletariat patriotism." Pure nonsense, right? Then they added some more: "At the current stage, the main theme of our patriotism is to love socialism, the socialism under the leadership of the communist party." Do you think I could listen to this? Wasn't this deceitful propaganda? It was everywhere. I had heard enough lies and deceits outside. I had to continue listening to the lies plus deceits?
The patriotism I understand is completely different from that. I love the country. If I didn't, I wouldn't have been put into prison. If I didn't, I wouldn't have joined this movement. But my love for the country absolutely does not mean I love the government, especially this kind of government, a cruel, people-killing government that administered bloody crack-down on its people, and wouldn't allow them to freely express their opinions. Could I love this kind of bloody government? I'm afraid no person with conscience would. If a government did well, there would be no need for its people to go abroad, to look for a place to live. If it governed China well, the outflow of talents wouldn't have happened. Even if a lot of overseas students chose to stay, they would still use the knowledge they gained and the resources they have at hands, to repay China, and serve a very glorious China.
But is the China today such a society? I'm afraid not. Many of my former classmates came to the U.S. long time ago. I'm seven or eight years behind some of them. None of them thought of going back to China to develop. Why? I'm afraid that this further shows what kind of government the Chinese government is. This is a society that suppresses differences in opinions, that suppresses people's natural instincts and individual characteristics. So you don't want to get involved in this thing called politics in China, but oftentimes politics would affect you, affect us, every common Chinese citizen's life.
This is the reason why I chose this route at that time. A lot of people couldn't understand. "Why do you want to do politics?" I feel that in China, politics is a very important factor that determines your future and life. One cannot ignore it. It has a lot of unfair policies to restrict you, to limit your freedom, and to suppress your individual characteristics. Living like this is not going to be meaningful. We, as so-called "Capitalized Human Beings," still need to progress and advance, still hope that natural instincts can be developed to full potential and that talents and ability can be fully utilized, and also utilized in the area we wish. Right? But can a society like the one in China provide you with such opportunities and environment? I'm afraid it's going to be difficult.
CND: A moment ago you mentioned that the prison sent a notice to your mother saying that you didn't accept disciplines? What did your mother say? Can you say something about your mother?
TONG: OK. Under any circumstance, I will always be very grateful to my parents. Really. After I was detained, my mother and my father paid a huge price for me, both psychologically and materially. They also shared the risk. But my mother had always been courageous in appealing for me, quickly spreading information about me to the outside. This kind of efforts were effective. Later the condition for me in prison got better and better. In 1995, I didn't have any newspaper to read. For one whole year, I knew nothing about the situation outside.
During the second half of that year, I could read books, but no newspapers. Therefore I knew nothing when WEI Jingsheng was sentenced. I only learned of the news on the New Year's Day of 1996. To tell you the truth, I was in great pain when I heard the news. Of course I could imagine the cruelty of the current government, but I was still deeply saddened when I heard the news. After that, slowly, and bit by bit, I came through. Every month, my parents would bring me a lot of books, food and also clean clothes. They walked for long long time with those big and small bags to get to me. It hadn't be easy for people of their age.
CND: In what ways do you feel that you were influenced by your parents when you grew up?
TONG: I feel that one influence from my parents is to always do things diligently. My father works in quality assurance. He is very diligent. As for dealing with people, my father started teaching me when I was very young, using a very ancient saying "given a peach and plum, return with jade." I remember it was expressed this way. This means that if you benefit from a drop of water from someone, return the favor with a bucket of water. One more thing, it's about the sense of responsibility. I had served as the class monitor for five years when I was in primary school. That kind of environment was very good for cultivating my sense of responsibility.
Later I was competing intellectually with classmates in a very competitive and excellent school. In that kind of environment, my personality and knowledge were well developed, providing me with an excellent opportunity to form my views on life and history. For this I'm very thankful to Huashi Yifuzhong, the high school I went to. Many excellent graduates came out of that school. I will always remember my days there. I think that those six years in my development were the richest and happiest years.
CND: It looks as though that the education one receives during youth really has a life-long effect.
TONG: Yes, yes. And also honesty. My parents always taught me to be honest with others. Neither to owe, nor to cheat. Treat others with sincerity. This is a very important principle in the journey of my life. In addition, if you want to do something, you should also be able to accept its consequence. This is very critical, the so-called "be bold enough to do something and accept responsibility for it." If you did something but don't dare take on the responsibilities, you are a coward. If you did it, and was able to take on all of its dangerous consequences, this is probably a better way of being a person.
CND: Just now we talked about rights and responsibilities ...
TONG: Yes, they have to be consistent with each other. For example I chose this route, which is a relatively high risk route in today's China. Then after one started, one needs to prepare psychologically for the risks. Further, when the risk has indeed arrived, one needs to stay calm. Of course, in this aspect, I was very much influenced by WEI Jingsheng. During his conversation with others, WEI Jingsheng had often mentioned his struggles while he was in prison.
This kind of teaching from him by words and actions affected me a great deal, but it was gradual and hardly noticeable. I calmly faced more than one hundred hours of cruel interrogation. Looking back now, I feel that I did relatively well. I wasn't the kind that got nervous and didn't know what to do, losing judgment and rationality under high pressures. This is very important. It's a test of one's psychological quality.
CND: I wonder if you would like to talk about another matter. That is the impact on your marriage due to your involvement in the 1989 Democracy Movement.
TONG: This certainly is a very personal matter. Yet many of my friends know about my situation. In 1989, I became acquainted with a graduate student from the People's University in Beijing, who then was also a member of the standing committee of the Dialog Delegation. We were under rigorous investigation by our respective university authorities following our escape together after June 4. We were under a lot of pressure. We became attached to each other under the circumstance and then formed a family. The matrimony was for sure forged in an extremely adverse situation as we had absolutely no financial resources in Beijing and making a living was very difficult.
My parents were in Wuhan, not in Beijing. We had to rent a place, which was another big headache. It was almost impossible to do anything for the Democracy Movement on top of having to make a living. Since the struggle for mere existence was extremely arduous and we had different capacities for endurance - in addition to personality differences, in the end we agreed to separate and part company. I believe our experiences during this period had a lot to do with the particular political environment and the unfair treatment imposed on us. Compared with other people, we had a much lower and tougher point to start our lives together, which made it difficult for the relation to develop.
CND: That's quite understandable. What did he say about your working for Mr. WEI?
TONG: Nothing. I never told him about it. We had already agreed to separate before I went to work for Mr. WEI, pending formal procedures for divorce. So I never mentioned to him my work for Mr. WEI. He knew nothing about it. He probably had no idea what I was doing by the day we had completed our divorce paper work.
CND: It was said that the Chinese Government asked him to sue you in relation to the marriage, but he refused to do so to Mr. WEI and you. Is that true?
TONG: I heard about it later on. The fact that he refused to do it, I believe, is first of all because he was not a bad person. Even now I still don't feel that he was a bad person. This is the number one reason. The number two reason is that he just didn't know what happened. Considering these two factors, he had all the reasons to refuse to do what they asked. He didn't "add to the misery" and I was grateful to him for that. He kept his moral bottom line.
CND: Now that you are in the U.S. and Columbia University has accepted you as well, what are you going to study?
TONG: I'm still going to study Political Science.
CND: Who will be your academic advisor?
TONG: Prof. Andrew Nathan. He is a very well-known China expert.
CND: You translated his book before and now he becomes your academic advisor, right?
TONG: That's right.
CND: What a coincidence.
TONG: That's right. Prof. Nathan has been of great help to me in very practical ways. Without his help, it wouldn't have been possible for me to sit down with you in New York City, calmly and openly discussing what had happened. For this, I'm very grateful to Prof. Nathan and Columbia University for their assistance. As you know, the President of the university even wrote a personal letter to LI Peng, asking that I be released and permitted to go to Columbia University to study. Here I'd like to express my deepest appreciation to Columbia University.
CND: You mentioned that Columbia University had kept your admission open for a long time.
TONG: Indeed, they kept the admission open for me. Since I was arrested again after having been accepted by the university in 1994, they decided right then to keep my admission open till the day I would be able to enroll in the university. They have been very accommodating and extremely helpful to me.
CND: What are your plans for the future?
TONG: I certainly cherish the opportunity to study in this prestigious university, and plan to work diligently in my academic field so that I can greatly upgrade my theoretical level. This is what I need to make up for. As you know, I haven't been able to sit down and study since 1989. However, for someone like me to further develop, it takes some honest reflections and preparations from a theoretical perspective.
CND: What about after graduation?
TONG: After graduation, it will be very difficult for me to return to China to develop my career in a foreseeable future. Of course there is another issue - survival - to consider. I certainly hope to find a relatively favorable entry point into the society so that I can not only survive in the U.S. but also do something to promote democracy movement in China. I don't know if it will be easy to find a job like that - it's still an unknown. Of course, it isn't that urgent to find a job as I hope to study for a few more years.
CND: You have been in the labor camp in China for many years and then put under strict surveillance after your release. Now how do you feel upon arrival in a metropolis like New York City?
TONG: I feel very overwhelmed. To me, the change is all too sudden. To be honest, my life in China had been lonely, dull, monotonous and inanimate, all by myself since April 4, 1994. It was very bland. Few dared to show any care, concern and encouragement to me. So I was struggling all on my own, a very harsh life. Since I arrived, I feel so much warmth. Many friends care for me, hope to understand me as a person and show me their support and care. I'm deeply touched. There comes my feeling of a difference between Heaven and Hell. It's just so overwhelming.
CND: Then how are you going to make the best use of the situation?
TONG: I hope to change the slow rhythm I have carried over from the past. As you know, everything in prison was routinized, extremely monotonous. I'm afraid that my physiological and mental capacities had been minimized and so was the rhythm of life. Now all of a sudden I got into such an active place, I need to pick up my pace. Both my physical and mental operations need to be upgraded. This is a new challenge to me. I hope I can meet the challenge well. I have to work hard on it.
CND: I'd like to ask you a question for looking back. You had been working for Mr. WEI ever since after the 1989 Democracy Movement, up until the time when you were sent to the labor camp. For a very long time, you have been through a lot of hardship. Would you still make the same choice in retrospect?
TONG: I think I would. I believe the democracy movement in China needs the involvement of every Chinese to move forward. Everyone has a different angle. Frankly, I only participated as a self-motivated ordinary student, although I was quite deeply involved in the 1989 Democracy Movement. I believe the force of a democracy movement should originate from its "grassroots" rather than from some elites who are devoted to it as a profession. So my principle was to start as an ordinary nobody and further my work step by step, and it just so happened I have arrived today with a certain degree of "celebrity." Of course I owe what little celebrity I have to Mr. WEI entirely.
CND: You too have done a lot and paid a dear price.
TONG: I surely have paid a price for my work. But it was because of Mr. WEI himself and his excellent work having been recognized, I have got quite some attention from people. I really appreciate that. Yet as a general principle, I hope that ordinary Chinese citizens will know their rights, actively exercise those rights, join in the movement and promote the cause of democracy with their unique angles and respective positions in the society.
One point I would like to make here is that fame and wealth shouldn't be the goal. Everyone who participates in the movement should have a clear understanding of this. We participate in the movement not to pursue fame and wealth. Don't think in that way. If you do, don't bother to be part of it. One can work right in the establishment in China and make the fame and wealth just the same, quite handily. No need to be part of such a high-risk democracy movement.
Then what's the objective of this movement? In essence, it is working towards a better existence for the general Chinese populace, to improve basic human rights. In this process, one must be very much aware of one's position: an ordinary person working for ordinary people. A position one must always maintain. Otherwise, people may wonder what was the motivation, which will be detrimental to the operation of a cause aiming at winning popular support. If we want to drive our movement forward, our primary strength must be ordinary people, as we say that "whoever has the support of the people has the whole world." This cause-effect relation must be clearly understood. If one loses sight of this premise and only participates to pursue personal fame and wealth, then one doesn't have to take this route.
"Serve the people!" rumbled the communist party since their beginning. It turned out to be a camouflage for itself. The communist government exists nowadays for the sole purpose of maintaining their power to cling to their vested interests. The democracy movement we are participating in has the express purpose to become a voice for the people and this is the only way to gain the support of the people. Don't be so caught up in thinking about what personal gain one can get from the movement. I hope to do something pragmatic and effective. I can work on the backstage and I'm happy to do that.
CND: In addition to your studies, what else would you like to do?
TONG: I'm afraid I don't have six arms or four legs. As you know, it's not easy for a newcomer to America to deal with studies in liberal arts and social sciences. I have got a great deal of advice from my academic seniors. Once I begin my studies, I'll fully devote myself to it since it isn't an easy task to get this degree. I hope to learn something more solidly and don't want to be unduly distracted. I won't spend much time on other things. Of course, as a person, one has to have some leisure. I wouldn't object to that. However, it won't be easy to establish oneself as a woman. I expect some difficulties. And I'm fully prepared.
CND: How is your health?
TONG: I don't have good health. I feel very weak, to be honest.
CND: Is it a result of your ordeal in the labor camp?
TONG: Sure it has something to do with it. I catch cold very often after being released. I suffered from colds frequently when I was in there. I have to bundle myself with layers of clothing in the winter and am extremely sensitive to cold temperature. Very weak. This is a big problem. It's hard to say whether I can cope with the fast pace with my poor health.
CND: Do pay attention to your health when you fully devote yourself to your studies. Don't tax too much on your health. Learning is a gradual process. You have to take care of your health.
TONG: That's right.
CND: Thank you for allowing me to carry such a long interview with you. Through this interview, you have told us a lot about Mr. WEI, whom we knew very little before. Also we got to know you better through this. Is there anything that you need help with?
TONG: As for me, I'll begin my studies at Columbia University next month. I think this is a very good opportunity and I'll fully commit myself to studies. As for the future, I don't have a plan yet. But another important task, I think, is to raise the concern for the cause of democracy among ordinary Chinese people, especially concern for the fate of activists like Mr. WEI, WANG Dan and LIU Nianchun who are still suffering in prison, and do more for them. I think it's everyone's business, not just mine. Let's see if everyone of us can do something in this respect.
I hope everyone can come up with some ideas through different ways to win the early release of those suffering in jail. It's not only a matter concerning the fate of the few, but also a matter related to the exercising of rights and freedom in China as a whole and the people as a whole. Let's see what we can do as overseas Chinese with respect to the Nobel Peace Prize for Mr. WEI. I hope to contribute to the success of this campaign.
CND: You worked with Mr. WEI and understand him as a person and his thoughts. Since he cannot publish his articles while in prison, maybe through you his thoughts can be presented. HXWZ welcomes your contributions.
TONG: I will certainly do that often. Mr. WEI has had great influence on me and I've always been concerned with what happens to him. Therefore, I will do whatever I can to introduce him and his ideals.
CND: Thank you for the interview.