March
25, 2000 - April 1, 2000
SHIPPER: OK, I'm a bit defensive
here, some of you are talking about shippers as though they
are morons that don't know anything and only watch the show
to see Mulder and Scully 'get it on'.
BEECYKA:
I know all shippers aren't morons. Some of my best online friends
are shippers. I was even a shipper too ... (sadly, sadly, sadly
::: shudders ::: )
SHIPPER:
While I'm sure not every shipper in the world is the brightest,
there are morons on all sides (shippers, noromos, fencers, etc..)
who only watch the show because it fits their personal defination.
BEECYKA:
I know a few of those non-bright shippers, and some non-bright
noromos (not as many though, but I only know a few). I personally
watch the show because the stories are good/entertaining/suspenseful,
etc ... When I was a shipper, I was (for lack of better word)
brainwashed into it. I only began watching the show summer 1998.
Met a Shipper Phile and she said that you had to be a shipper
no matter what ... since i had really no clue what she meant
(for awhile), i went along with it. Once I got past the brainwashing
(LOL) and understood that DD&GA are different than M&S,
I re-analized my ship and decided I'd much rather watch the
show for the stories other than a relationship that really wouldn't
make sense for the show. IMO romance is not for The X-Files,
without a good plot and supporting characters, Mulder and Scully
are pretty boring people ... you cannot base a tv series on
the personal lives of these characters. The stories bring out
what M&S are. That is what is most important. Yes, we see
character development. But does that have to mean M&S will
end up romantically involved at the end? No.
SHIPPER:
As a shipper, I will tell you that I am very into all aspects
of the show. I started watching it when if first came out because
it was about things I was interested in, ufos and paranormal
ideas which really facsinated me and still do.
BEECYKA:
I love to see shippers write this! This goes to show that you
are a sensible shipper ...I'm guessing that you do not base
the show by how much 'shippy' content is involved in an episode
(correct me if I'm wrong).
SHIPPER:
During the first three years I watched it, I don't think there
was any of this shipper/noromo conflict going on because it
was quite obvious they were just really good friends,
BEECYKA:
And they still are good friends. But probably during the first
3 years, not as many ppl were watching than in year 4. Not as
many ppl were interested in a "MSR" in those 3 years.
SHIPPER:
but after that, in my personal opinion because of certain things
that happened within the show I figured that they would eventually
'get together'."
BEECYKA:
"personal opinion" ... an opinion which is not shared
by everyone.
SHIPPER:
This became especially apparent as it seemed to me interplay
between the charicters included jelously (and no, I'm not searching
desperately for these, they seem obvious to me), overflirtyness,
and words such as "I love you'. It was just an evolution
for me and I'm sure for the charicters, as it's hard not to
believe that these two would never in any way like each other
a little more than "just friends".
BEECYKA:
Jealousy? are you talking about The End, and Scully's jealousy
of Diana Fowley? In my opinion Scully had professional jealousy.
Flirting? Who doesn't flirt with their best guy friends?? I
know I do. :-) And who doesn't tell their friends that they
love them? And remember that Scully did roll her eyes at him
... All of that is an evolution of their friendship ... friendships
grow to new levels everyday, and especially with significant
events in their life. Without change, friendships become nothing
... and if 2 ppl grow closer together over time, that doesn't
mean that they will end up romantically involved. Yes, some
ppl do end up marrying their best friend. I'm just saying that
in the case of The X-Files, it doesn't follow with the plot
or within the boundaries of Mulder and Scully's characters.
SHIPPER:
Personally, I don't see why noromos exist (and I'm not saying
this to insult anyone) except to keep the show from becoming
a soap opera, which is a good thing, no one wants to have that
happen, but I don't see why anyone would be against having them
'get together' in the very last ep, since there will be nothing
left to ruin on the show
BEECYKA:
And I can see how shippers exist, being there are a lot of romantics
out there. And I know most ppl don't want it to be a soap type
series (which it won't). But I believe to have a legacy for
the show would mean to have XF as the only show that was successful
without crossing into the typical dramas of the present ...
by that i mean no romance to drive the plot. To me having M&S
end up romantically involved would still ruin the show, even
at the very end. And believe me I spent all summer thinking
this over.
SHIPPER:
(legacies can't be ruined either, the show will have begun and
ended the way it was, nothing in between changes and if the
idea of them being together in the last ep ruins someone's enjoyment
of watching repeats, even though those eps happed *before* any
relationship, then it's doubtful that person would be interested
in watching repeats anyway.
BEECYKA:
See above comment about the legacy comment you made. "begun
and ended the way it was..." see it began without a romance
and will end without a romance. What I meant about reruns, was
that watching them knowing that M&S hook up. That would
just make watching the reruns sad ... knowing that everything
they worked for on the show ended like that. (I hope this makes
sense it's getting late). And I know that I will be watching
repeats for as long as I possibly can.
SHIPPER:
I'm hoping for a relationship in the end simply because I know
that this is the one major way both M and S will be happy, seeing
as they're so completey alone otherwise. Why wouldn't someone
want these two to be happy?
BEECYKA:
And why can't they be happy as friends? They have lives outside
the FBI, we just don't see that part, as I said before The X-Files
is not driven by the personal lives of it's main characters
... Scully could have a life outside her's with Mulder ... and
vice versa ... we just don't know. And maybe one day they will
find someone to fall in love with ... other than each other
... a relationship between the 2 of them wouldn't be interesting.
They already know almost everything about each other. Part of
dating someone (being romantically involoved), is the mystery
of getting to know the other person. Obviously, M&S already
have that, but nothing has come of their friendship, nothing
romantic at least ... and if it were going to happen, it would
have happened a long time ago, when CC & Co. could have
written about it, but they just were not interested in doing
that kind of story. And yes, I want to see Mulder happy and
I want to see Scully happy. Still by wanting that, I still am
not a shipper.
SHIPPER:
You make some really good points, but none which are convincing
to me. I think a relationship would be a good thing, as I keep
pushing, a natural evolution of the charicters.
BEECYKA:
I hope I made good points LOL ... and I respect your opinion
about 'a natural evolution'.
SHIPPER:
I don''t think the show is based soley on the cases, as we only
get to see these cases through the M and S charicters. This
makes the show very much intertwined with the charicters themselves
and puts it on a personal level, as we get to see how they act
and react and why.
BEECYKA:
Well I have read several interviews in magazines and books that
interviewed Chris Carter and Frank Spotnitz, where they have
both stated that they are plot driven and that a deeper more
personal relationship is something that they are not interested
in doing with the show. I'll post those here on Tuesday (i won't
be online tomorrow). We do see the cases through M&S, but
that's all we get out of it. We see them change, grow together
... that's what helps the cases, but the show still is not based
on their lives ... it is based on their work.
SHIPPER:
I think the show would be less intersting without some human
context, I am very much interested in learing more about M and
S as much as I am about the conspiracy simply because I care
about them, and that is another very important aspect in the
show which gives it context and layers.
BEECYKA:
I agree with you that if there is no human context it would
be boring. I'm just as interested in knowing more about M&S
as anyone is that cares, but I'm not interested in a romance
between the two.
SHIPPER:
Now, I''m still not saying that they are going to end it any
way, I''m just saying that a realtionship at the end would be
wholly accepatble for me, call it a closure of sorts. They started
out as friends and through the course of there search for the
truth they became more than that.
BEECYKA:
I don't see how they have become more than friends ... could
you explain that to me?? I used to think that it would be ok
at the end, but as I said in my previous post, that I gave a
lot of thought to that over the past summer.
SHIPPER:
I think Mulder and Scully will end up in a relationship because
friendship only goes so far, and because they are human beings
and human beings want and need to be loved.
BEECYKA:
Yes friendship only goes so far .. sometimes a lifetime (which
is great). I honestly think that Mulder and Scully will remain
great friends throughout their lifetime and that nothing romantic
will happen between the 2 of them. There is also a point in
a friendship where you can't just go ahead and become romantically
involved. You get to a point where nothing has happened and
you just know that nothing will happen. I've had this happen
to me before. And now that guy is my best guy friend in the
world! I can tell him anything, help him with girl problems
and he helps me with guy problems ... and I know that nothing
will ever happen between us.
SHIPPER:
I don''t see why this is acceptable if they have other ''loves''
but not each other.
BEECYKA:
I'm not saying that it is. As I said before, a relationship
in The X-Files is not appropriate. I'm not interested in M&S
finding other ppl to love. I just said that because I was just
saying that maybe they would find someone else. I hope that's
clear now.
SHIPPER:
As for "i love you" I never say this to a male friend
without expecting them to interpret it as an invitation into
or extending into a romatic relationship. Unless, of course,
I''m related to that male.
BEECYKA:
Well not all people are the same. I can say it to any of my
friends, male and female ... because they know I mean it in
a friendship way. Not once has a male friend of mine taken it
the wrong way.
SHIPPER:
I think since they already know each other so well, it is an
acceptable setting for a relationship. They already act like
an old married couple sometimes.
BEECYKA:
And I still believe there should be mystery involved with a
new couple. That is what M&S don't have anymore. Yes, they
seem like an old married couple, because they know eachother
so well ... there is nothing left to find out ... they argue
a lot, etc. So do old friends.
Well the
way I look at the other women situations, is that Mulder is
preoccupied with them and not focusing on the case they need
to be working on. Scully wants to work on the case and then
there is Mulder. Scully has always been more serious ... and
Mulder has his moments. And now that you think about it, Diana
Fowley is the only woman that came between them professionally.
SHIPPER:
I still don''t see why a relationship in the end will ruin things.
BEECYKA:
I have this thing about the show's legacy ... it they end up
together, it would kinda ruin Chris Carter's original plan,
not to get them involved romantically. And I trust that Chris
Carter will stay true to his words.
SHIPPER:
You seem to accept that they can love other people but just
not each other. This doesn''t make sense to me.
BEECYKA:
I did not mean that literally. I still don't want to see either
of them hook up with anyone during the series or movies (if
they do more). The X-Files is not about romance.
SHIPPER:
What is the difference? You keep insisting that it will destroy
the show''s legacy, but it only appears that it will destroy
some people''s taste for the show.
BEECYKA:
Who's taste for the show?? Shippers? Noromos? The casual viewer??
Please elaborate.
SHIPPER:
The legacy is obviously not about a realtionship, as thay are
not in one in any offical capacity. The show is built on the
charicter interplay and the conspiracies, and one thing that
happens in one ep is not going to change anything except people''s
*personal opinions* and how they want it to end themselves.
BEECYKA:
The legacy is about not having a romance and still being successful
this day in time. And I agree most people won't change their
minds about how they want it to end. I personally have no expectations
for the end of the series, I trust Chris Carter will make it
entertaining and true to the series.
SHIPPER:
Truthfully though, it just apprears blatantly obvious to me
that they like each other more than friends. As a said before,
I don''t go looking for it, I just find it cute and sometimes
amusing when it happens.
BEECYKA:
Oh the interaction between the two of them is cute ... I enjoy
most "shippy" scenes, but still doesn't make me want
them together romantically.
SHIPPER:
Some shippers definately read too far into things, but I think
some noromos read too far into things too.
BEECYKA:
Oh some shippers are very close-minded. Some read way too far
into things ... but I personally don't know what you mean by
noromos doing the same thing. Could you give an example so I
can understand that?
SHIPPER:
LOL, one quote I will never forget though is what one person
said about the halway scene in the movie.. that it pisses off
noromos because they wanted to kiss and it pissed off shippers
because they didn''t. Poor CC! He tries and he tries...
BEECYKA:
LOL that is funny! Thing is the hallway scenes is one of my
favorite parts in the movie because it shows character development
... shows how much M&S care for each other (as friends).
There was some UST ... but I think after that they realized
that they didn't need to become physical to relay feelings to
each other. All they need to do is look at each other and they
know what the other is thinking.
SHIPPER:
Anyway, thanks for the debate, I'm enjoying it.
BEECYKA:
De nada! And feel free to reply.
SHIPPER:
I am really trying to see this from your POV, but it isn't working.
Too many questionalble things have happened that friends simply
do not do, like kiss, almost kiss, show desire to kiss, too
many questionable situations and events and some statements
(like phillips' "she's just trying to get his attention").
These make it seem obvuois to me that CC ig going somewhere
with this, they have become an issue and it doesn't matter how
much they can be explained away because they have happened and
muct be dealt with in some fashion.
CC has stuck
true to his word, he has not allowed the show to become a sex
fest, and we are all very happy about that, but he never says
anything about not planning on getting them together at the
end. No legacies will be ruined, just maybe how some people
want to see the show end. The X-Files will still forever be
remembered as the icon of the paranormal, the show that drove
people to believe.
Whether
or not a person wants M and S together, the idea/possibility
has been planted and must be dealt with or it will becaome an
unresolved issue. They could very well just be friends in the
end, but friends don't kiss each other and tell each other "i
love you" or act jealous (proffessional jelousy?? What
about when Mulder is not with another agent? Like wolfwoman?
Or bambi? Or that blonde policewoman in that ep with the teenagers
who killed her cat... Sorry, that aint 'proffessional' jelousy).
It has become
an important issue for me that I want an answer to, just like
I want an answer to why Mulder's name was on the file instead
of smanthas (was he supposed to have been taken, and why?),
or the answers to who created the human race, if aliens made
up the bible and why and when they plane to invade. It is an
issue withing the series that needs to be dealt with and answered
or it will become something that hangs and leaves people unsatisfied.
I just happen
to be one of the people who think they will get together in
the end. Everything ties together, as CC once said.
Sorry if
I didn't answer all your questions, my computer is giving me
problems with storage operation and not letting me post. *crossing
fingers*
BEECYKA:
Friends do kiss, for M&S, it was New Years Eve (of the millennium)
and Mulder obviously felt the need to kiss Scully. I believe
that Mulder would like more than a friendship with Scully, but
it is not a mutual feeling on her part. That is why Mulder kissed
Scully, not Scully initiating it. And she did it so she wouldn't
hurt his feelings. (oh and some shippers wrote to CC complaining
and begging about M&S kissing). Scully looked uncomfortable
after the kiss, not all gushy/mushy lovelorn like most shippers
believe. Please remember that it was New Years Eve and it is
absolutely accceptible to kiss a friend then.
About the
almost kiss in FTF, Mulder probably thought it was the last
time he was gonna see Scully because she was going to be transfered
to Salt Lake City ... he wanted to get out his feelings, to
express his emotion to her. It was a very emotional scene between
the 2 of them. I believe that in that scene any UST between
them disappeared, and in it's place came a closer bond emotionally
between them. That is the reason why there hasn't been so much
UST in the past 2 seasons ... and probably yet another reason
I am now a Noromo. There is more friendship now than before,
they overcame the UST. The tension is not there and that is
why they are more relaxed with each other. They both realize
they are just friends. IMO their "relationship" has
been dealt with and resolved.
Please see
Words of Faith
Yes, the
idea has been planted (in the minds of those that only want
to see a 'msr'). But like most other stories on this show, the
'msr' will not be resolved the way most shippers would like.
And friends can say that they love each other ... if they can't
then IMO it is not a true friendship. And just how did Scully
show she was jealous when Wolfwoman, Bambi or Detective White,
were with Mulder?? Remember that in "Syzygy", the
way everyone was acting was because of the alignment of the
planets Mars, Uranus and Mercury. I think what you see as jealousy,
is just Scully being annoyed with Mulder for not concentrating
on the case that they are supposed to be working on.
I understand
that you want this answered. And I think it will be answered.
Chris Carter said he is not interested in taking his show in
that direction, so he will resolve it in that way. (see Words
of Faith).
"Everything
ties together, as CC once said."
When did
CC say that? I'm guessing he was talking about the Mytharc ...
since i think i remember reading smthg like that before, dealing
with Mytharc. I don't think he was talking about the 'msr'.
Thanks for
listening
SHIPPER:
You said you think Mulder might like more of a relationship
with Scully, but Scully does not. Actually, if that were to
happen (any relationship, I mean) I think Scully would be the
one who wanted it. Mulder is usually the one who appears (to
me) less interested (or eager or whatever) but who knows. Anyway,
I'm throwing in the towl, you have defeated me! (not altered
me mind you), right now I'm too terrified about the show going
on without Mulder (DD as Mulder) to disscuss this anymore. I
hope they don't kill him off or something. God, that would be
depressing. I love Mulder!!
BEECYKA:
I love Mulder too!!
:::shakes
hand in peace:::
~BeeCyka
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Aftermath
of Seasons 8 and 9
(January 8, 2004)
by BeeCyka
Looking
back over this little debate I noticed that I mentioned that
if Mulder and Scully were to be romantically involved, that
it would ruin the way I view the show in syndication (reruns).
Sadly, this is true. I find it difficult to sit through non-Season
8 and 9 episodes of "The X-Files" - Mulder/Scully
only eps - because of the apparent relationship that happened
between them. I don't enjoy Seasons 1 through 7 as much as I
used to because I know what is to come in the later seasons.
I do like the characters Doggett and Reyes very much and was
disappointed that in Season 9 that the writers looked like they
were working their way towards forcing a relationship between
the two of them upon viewers. It is for that reason that I'm
glad "The X-Files" did not have a tenth season and
it is for that reason I hope to never see another X-Files adventure
(on tv or on the big screen) again. I don't want to see Chris
Carter ruin Doggett and Reyes as he ruined Mulder and Scully
for me.
IMHNO, Noromos
won their little "war" with shippers because once
it became obvious that CC had put Mulder and Scully into a non-platonic
relationship, the show's quality started to dwindle and Scully
became a weepy soap opera type character and Mulder became an
asshole. The MSR ruined the show in terms of the Mulder/Scully
arc - thank goodness the stories involving Doggett and Reyes
were much better done :)
~Cassie
