Dialogue with RolaAus (Abu Aadam's 2nd reply)

15 Sept 1999

REPLY TO ROLAAUS

Abu Aadam

Hi RolaAus,

I hope you are well today. Thanks for your response and further questions. In your justification for why you worship someone who himself worshipped God, you said:

"simply put, Jesus was put on this earth for 2 reasons - the first to save our sins, through dieing for our sins, because He was sinless, and 2 to show His believers how to live a Godly life - through His life - by example, not by command as had been done with the 10 commandments and various other commands from God.

What does this mean - if Jesus had come down in His full glory (of God) we would not have seen Him pray until He sweat blood, asking that if it's God's will that His cup be taken away from Him (referring - days before Judas betrayed Him - to His death - He KNEW it was going to happen ..." (I will talk about your 'NOTE' here a little later, God-Willing.)

First, God is Merciful and Forgiving, and is fully capable of forgiving our sins, as well as being sinless - so why does He need to come down to earth as a human being and then be beaten up and then 'die' - according to you - in order to forgive us ? He hears and responds to the sincere repentance of believers. His Mercy is not limited. Why cannot a human being worship God and have a fulfilling relationship with God unless God turns into a human being ? - What does this say about God and His creation - is He incapable of guiding us as He is ? What about before this alleged 'incarnation', what about Abraham and Moses, were they somehow deprived in their relationship with God, or was God not able to guide them perfectly, since he was just God and didn't turn into a human being ?

Or looked at from a different perspective, why the suffering and punishment upon the innocent man Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, for something God can do anytime He wants (forgive us) anyway ? Why does God demand a horrific blood-sacrifice in order to forgive us our sins ? Its not Jesus' fault we sinned, he is innocent, so why should our All-Merciful God demand his cruel and bloody death ? This idea is more akin to the Aztec's cruel false deities than the Merciful God of Abraham. God SAVED Jesus - this is what the Qur'an says, and what is consistent with Our Lord's infinite Mercy. The only reason Christian theology developed the idea of an Incarnational Saviour was in order to 'deal with' the other man made doctrine: Original Sin. The words 'Personal Saviour' so popular amongst evangelical Christians were never spoken by Jesus, according to the Bible, nor do they appear anywhere in their New Testament. The truth is that God is Merciful and Forgiving and will accept our sincere repentance. God Himself says:

"Your Lord knows best what is in your inner-selves. If you are righteous, then, verily, He is Ever Most Forgiving to those who turn unto Him again and again in obedience, and in repentance." [Qur'an 17:25]

Further, you say that God died for our sins. The idea of the Eternal and Ever-Living God DIEING is ridiculous. If God died, who resurrected God ? If God really died, there would be no one left to resurrect Him. If God was alive to resurrect God, then God didn't die. I ask: Does this honestly make sense to anyone ? Christians take refuge in calling this obviously contradictory and illogical position a 'mystery'. But God wants to guide us and illuminate us with His Truth, not confound us. The truth is that confusion like this comes not from God, but from a man-made doctrine. The man-god myth is quite well established amongst many ancient cultures, including the one at Jesus' time, and the idea of incarnation is more akin to the polytheistic pagan conceptions of god than the One True God that Abraham, Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them all, worshipped. Whats so hard about believing in the One God the way Abraham, Moses and Jesus did ? Is there any Christian, including you RolaAus, who can justify and explain the doctrine of Trinity and/or Incarnation to me ?

Secondly, you said Jesus came "to show His believers how to live a Godly life - through His life - by example". I agree in the sense that he was an example to his followers, just as every Prophet is an example to his followers during his prophethood. Prophets teach us the scripture and wisdom, and show us how God is to be worshipped. So how does this justify you worshipping a man who himself worshipped God ? Haven't you just cited an argument against yourself ? If Jesus was an example, and he worshipped God, then shouldn't you follow his example and worship God too ? Jesus never worshipped himself, or asked himself for forgiveness, or any of these things. He turned to his Creator and His Lord, so isn't that what we all ought to do, also ?

Also, an example is someone we can follow and attempt to emulate. It makes sense that the example is fundamentally like us, so that we can follow him or her even if we are never quite as good as him or her, because he or she is the best at what they do. So, it follows that since we are human beings, our example should also be a human being. Don't we have a much better chance of learning from the example of one like us, a human being, rather than a man-god hybrid who we can never truly be like since he is a different, fundamentally different 'creature' altogether ? Once again, your statements would seem to hinder rather than support your hypothesis that Jesus (p) was God. The only thing that reason and revelation suggest to solve all of these questions and problems is that Jesus is a man, the great messenger of God All-Mighty, and not God Himself.

In your allegation that the Qur'an says Jesus, peace be upon him, died, you said:

"on Jesus death - even your own Qur'an shows us that Jesus DID INDEED DIE and WAS RISEN AGAIN -- in chap 19:33
33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
(quoted from http://islam.org/mosque/QURAN/19.htm)
--- can you explain this one??!!??"t;

Yes, praise be to God, this is easily explained in the Qur'an itself, and further elaborated upon by the divinely inspired words of the Prophet Muhammad (called 'ahadith').

You have misinterpreted this verse (19:33), and ignored the other verses which speak about this topic. The Qur'an nowhere says Jesus (p) died, as you assert. Read the verse you quoted, 19:33, again, and read with it also the verse I talked about in my last post 4:157 which states that God saved Jesus (p) from death. Verse 3:55 also explains that Jesus (p) was saved. I will not quote here, to save space, but please check it at the URL you gave us. Jesus (p) in 19:33 is saying that he will die, and will be raised again. From these 3 verses together, we understand that Jesus did not die, and was in fact saved, but that when he talks to his death he is referring to a future event. When Jesus (p) will return to earth (yes, Muslims believe this!), he will live amongst us, and die, like every human being dies, and be resurrected, like every human being. This is what 19:33 refers to. The words of the Prophet Muhammad ('ahadith') further explained this point - see http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/content41.html for what he said, having received revelation from God, about the End Times and the return of Jesus (p), his death, and so on.

Now, when you made your justification for worshipping someone who himself worshipped God, you added a note saying:

"*NOTE* Did Muhummed KNOW what he was going to pass on - I think not!"

Regarding your allegation that you think Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not know he was going to die (I presume that is what you mean, but your language is not very clear here) - that is false. Muhammad (p) predicted his death and a number of events that would occur after that with complete accuracy, as well as a number of other prophecies which were completely fulfilled, such as the conquests of Constantinople, Egypt, Persia, the uprising against Uthman, the assassination of Ali, and some which are being fulfilled here and now such as the minor signs of the Last Day, and some which will be fulfilled in the future, such as the conquest of Rome. This is an entire topic in itself, so I refer you to the following page on my site that lists some of these prophecies by Prophet Muhammad (P) with the proper references: http://thetruereligion.org/muhammadprophecy.htm . In addition to this, other prophecies which came true can be found in the Qur'an itself: http://thetruereligion.org/quranprophecy.htm

Note that these prophecies, amongst other miracles performed by him such as the splitting of the moon, the multiplication of food and water, healing, and many other miracles eye-witnessed by many people of that time and faithfully recorded and authentically transmitted to us, and the greatest miracle of all bestowed upon him, the Qur'an itself (see http://thetruereligion.org/revelation.htm for the miraculous aspects of the Qur'an), indicate the fact that Muhammad (p) was indeed a true Prophet. These are not the vague interpretations of some mystic, but the clear truth that came to pass, and could only have been given to him from his Lord, the One True God. I ask everyone to read the information on the page I just mentioned and sincerely ask themselves, in their heart: Is it feasible that this amazing book, which is linguistically perfect and inimitable, contains true prophecy, is internally and externally consistent, is confirmed by findings in history and archaeology, and mentions scientific information centuries ahead of its time only recently discovered, is really the work of an illiterate, uneducated Arab man living in a tribal country in a desert in the 7th Century after Christ, or is it the words of All-Mighty God to His messenger ?

Finally, I ask you all to pray to the One All-Mighty God (by which I mean who you call 'God The Father', and not Prophet Jesus), the Sustainer and Creator of all that exists and ask Him to guide your soul to whatever is pleasing to Him, because he is All-Knowing, and the All-Hearing who never fails to hear our prayers.

Thanks for your time, RolaAus. I look forward to hearing from you soon regarding the points raised in this post. Take care.

Regards,

Abu Aadam

Discover The True Religion: http://thetruereligion.org

[Note: The URLs have been updated - our site has moved since this dialogue took place]