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A correspondence between myself and Mike Vandeman where I try to understand his extremist views, discuss mountain biking and his insistent trolling of mountain bike news groups and forums. I think he came off as unprofessional and gave no clear arguments but I want everyone else to be able to see the complete unaltered transcript and make their own minds up (the only alteration was to * out his phone number and the website that I found it on). Read on and let me know what you think.
Matt (a mountain biker)
From: Matt
Date: 01/30/05 22:46:04
To: [email protected]
Subject: So in an ideal world.....
Hi
I am what you regard as a raper of nature, destroyer of natural habitats etc (I mountain bike) and so I have seen your website before, usually there is a link by a comment such as "this guy is a complete tool" or "check out this extremist point of view". I agree with the second comment and feel you come across as an extremist. I agree with a small part of what you say, disagree with a lot of it and don't understand what you are trying to achieve or the methods you choose to use. So I pose the following questions-
1) Given your views on nature, transport systems, humans trashing nature etc what would you like to see? If you got given complete control of the world what would your solution to humans and animals living together be? I cannot see how what you seem to want can become a working system where humans do not interfere with animals. From the second we became human's we started fiddling about with nature so unless you want us all to commit mass suicide and leave the planet to the animals what do you suggest?
2) You have a Ph.D. in mathematics, you teach computing, but your website horrifies me with its written in Word style of presentation. If you want people to read your website and think about your ideas why can't you spruce it up a bit? People are lazy and want things to be easy and it's hard work wading through the information on your website. HTML is one of the easiest things to learn, failing that get a student/friend/company to sort it out for you.
3)You seem very dedicated to your cause but yet you insist on behaving in a manner that does nothing to further it. I am talking about your dirty little habit of trolling in mountain bike forums and groups. Trolling is the act of posting a message of a inflammatory nature with the intention of starting a verbal fight with other users. What does this achieve? You must get something out of it as you keep doing it. This and the fact you misquote replies people make or post only one side of the argument on other forums and groups to make mountain bikers look bad actually makes you look very bad indeed. This baffles me most of all. Why bother? It seems like you merely like to argue not that you care about the environment when you do this. It does not further your cause unless really all you want is to be infamous as a trolling nutcase!
4)Do you or your family own a car? Are you vegan? Is your house totally green neither producing or using anything that is harmful or wasteful in any way? Do you buy goods packaged in non recyclable packaging? Do you eat organic? You can see where I am going with these questions, basically do you practice what you preach?
I expect you will probably either not read this, write a derogatory reply or reply in a fashion that answers none of my points but I thought I would see if you can convince me that what you say is right. I will be deeply disappointed if you use my email in any way that involves not quoting it all, I have been honest and as such left myself open to misquoting by you and could easily be quoted in a way that makes me appear to be a hate mail writing stupid mountain biker. Like when you see a movie poster that says "Best movie of the year" but the original review was "this would be the best movie of the year only if no other movies had been made that year". It's a childish ploy used by desperate people so please don't stoop that low. Looking forward to your reply.
Regards
Matt
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: 01/31/05 04:13:52
To: Matt
Subject: Re: So in an ideal world.....
At 10:46 PM 1/30/05 +0000, Matt wrote:
>Hi
>
>I am what you regard as a raper of nature, destroyer of natural habitats
>etc (I mountain bike) and so I have seen your website before, usually
>there is a link by a comment such as "this guy is a complete tool" or
>"check out this extremist point of view". I agree with the second comment
>and feel you come across as an extremist.
Meaning I'm ahead of my time?
> I agree with a small part of what you say, disagree with a lot of it and
> don't understand what you are trying to achieve or the methods you choose
> to use. So I pose the following questions-
>
>
>1) Given your views on nature, transport systems, humans trashing nature
>etc what would you like to see? If you got given complete control of the
>world what would your solution to humans and animals living together be? I
>cannot see how what you seem to want can become a working system where
>humans do not interfere with animals. From the second we became human's we
>started fiddling about with nature so unless you want us all to commit
>mass suicide and leave the planet to the animals what do you suggest?
Minimize your impacts, in every way that you are able. For starters, don't
tale your bike into parks or other natural areas.
>2) You have a Ph.D. in mathematics, you teach computing, but your website
>horrifies me with its written in Word style of presentation. If you want
>people to read your website and think about your ideas why can't you
>spruce it up a bit? People are lazy and want things to be easy and it's
>hard work wading through the information on your website. HTML is one of
>the easiest things to learn, failing that get a student/friend/company to
>sort it out for you.
What's the problem? I know html. I just don't want to waste any more time
on this than necessary. A website can only PRESENT information. It is still
up to the viewer to READ it.
>3)You seem very dedicated to your cause but yet you insist on behaving in
>a manner that does nothing to further it. I am talking about your dirty
>little habit of trolling in mountain bike forums and groups. Trolling is
>the act of posting a message of a inflammatory nature with the intention
>of starting a verbal fight with other users.
I have never done that. All I do is tell the truth. Mountain bikers react
in accordance with their personalities. I have as much right to post
mountain bike-related articles in mountain-bike-related newsgroups as
anyone else does, don't I? If you don't like what I say, post your own
thoughts.
> What does this achieve? You must get something out of it as you keep
> doing it. This and the fact you misquote replies people make or post only
> one side of the argument on other forums and groups to make mountain
> bikers look bad
I don't have to do ANYTHING to make you guys look bad. You do it naturally.
I just point it out.
> actually makes you look very bad indeed. This baffles me most of all.
> Why bother? It seems like you merely like to argue not that you care
> about the environment when you do this. It does not further your cause
> unless really all you want is to be infamous as a trolling nutcase!
>
>4)Do you or your family own a car? Are you vegan? Is your house totally
>green neither producing or using anything that is harmful or wasteful in
>any way? Do you buy goods packaged in non recyclable packaging? Do you eat
>organic? You can see where I am going with these questions, basically do
>you practice what you preach?
Of course. DUH! But I don't see how that has anything to do with your
mountain biking.
>I expect you will probably either not read this, write a derogatory reply
>or reply in a fashion that answers none of my points but I thought I would
>see if you can convince me that what you say is right. I will be deeply
>disappointed if you use my email in any way that involves not quoting it
>all, I have been honest and as such left myself open to misquoting by you
>and could easily be quoted in a way that makes me appear to be a hate mail
>writing stupid mountain biker. Like when you see a movie poster that says
>"Best movie of the year" but the original review was "this would be the
>best movie of the year only if no other movies had been made that year".
>It's a childish ploy used by desperate people so please don't stoop that
>low. Looking forward to your reply.
>
>Regards
>
>Matt
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************
From: Matt
Date: 02/01/05 15:33:29
To: [email protected]
Subject: your reply
Hi
Thanks for the reply to my email. It's a shame you didn't really answer my questions in as much detail as I would of liked though. I double checked the meaning of extremist and it in no way means ahead of your time, maybe you were thinking of visionary which is not what I said at all.
"Minimize your impacts, in every way that you are able. For starters, don't
take your bike into parks or other natural areas."
A sensible comment, I ride locally in a managed forest that gets ripped apart and rebuilt all the time. I sometimes ride the off-road coast routes that we have here that are used by hikers, dog walkers, and cyclists. I can assure you that the type of riding I do and the places I go have a minimal impact and I also ride sensibly i.e. I am not going to go fast on a shared path, I give way to walkers etc.
The comment about your website I still think is very justified, every academic knows that presentation is important. It helps people to read and understand what you are saying.
As for your comment about never trolling, in case you are unaware when you saw things like"you are a LIAR" the CAPS is essentially shouting, if I was talking to someone and they shouted I was a liar at me I would not be happy. They can tell me they don't belive me but not in that fashion thanks all the same. Whether you don't think you troll because you do not realize the way you come across I don't know but to everyone else you come across as a troll.
You said " I have as much right to post mountain bike-related articles in mountain-bike-related newsgroups as anyone else does, don't I?" Well to be honest, no you don't. You are posting material of an anti-mountain biking nature in an area reserved for mountain bikers to discuss mountain biking. If someone came into a newsgroup dedicated to helping the environment and started accusing everyone of standing in the way of progress and being Luddites I assume they would not be welcome and either merely tolerated, flamed, or banned. You should post in news groups that are for talking about the environment, animals, ecology etc. Don't attack mountain bikers, you will not get anywhere. I know most governments are useless but you should be campaigning through the official channels as it has more chance of success. If mountain bikers are as much of a threat as you make out then you will be heard. Better chance of success that way than winding up mountain bikers in their newsgroups.
As for the not doing anything to make mountain bikers look bad, you do antagonize them (intentionally or not) and then when the less restrained unleash on you you use that example to show how bad we all are.... Not all mountain bikers are like that, same as any other large group of people will have different types of people within it.
Section 4 was all about owning a car, is your house green etc. Nothing to do with my mountain biking but if you drive a car or don't recycle then you are doing more damage to the planet than I am by biking on routes that exist already and it defeats all your arguments as what is that point in saving a few area from being invaded when the whole planet is slowly getting more damaged. The point was if you want people to take you seriously you need to be actively doing all you can towards your cause. Your answer of "Of course. DUH!" is very wishy washy, do you mean you don't own a car in your family? That you recycle everything you can? Please elaborate further. I am told you work for SBC (a major regional phone company about to purchase AT&T) in San Ramon. If this is right why do you work for a company that strings up telephone lines all over the countryside and is involved in wireless technology that you have now added to your hate list? I don't understand how you can preach to mountain bikers about the damage they cause then work for a company like SBC? Also I was told you were chucked out of the Sierra Club, which is a shame for you as they could have been very helpful to your cause.
Lastly I just wanted to ask why you attack mountain bikers so much when to be fair we feature low down on the list of damage causing factors. Horses, motorbikes, and 4x4's all do vast amounts more damage so why do I not see any reports of you posting in 4x4 or horse riding news groups etc when I am on the Internet. It puzzles me greatly and makes it look like you found an easy target in mountain bikers and stuck with it.
Looking forward to your reply
Matt
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: 02/01/05 16:43:54
To: Matt
Subject: Re: your reply
At 03:33 PM 2/1/05 +0000, Matt wrote:
>Hi
>
>Thanks for the reply to my email. It's a shame you didn't really answer my
>questions in as much detail as I would of liked though. I double checked
>the meaning of extremist and it in no way means ahead of your time, maybe
>you were thinking of visionary which is not what I said at all.
Then what did you mean? That I know extremely more about this issue than
anyone else?
>"Minimize your impacts, in every way that you are able. For starters, don't
>take your bike into parks or other natural areas."
>
>A sensible comment, I ride locally in a managed forest that gets ripped
>apart and rebuilt all the time.
So that makes it okay to rip it apart some more? Sorry, your logic is faulty.
> I sometimes ride the off-road coast routes that we have here that are
> used by hikers, dog walkers, and cyclists. I can assure you that the type
> of riding I do and the places I go have a minimal impact and I also ride
> sensibly i.e. I am not going to go fast on a shared path, I give way to
> walkers etc.
But you aren't minimizing your impacts, because your impacts would be less
if you were on foot.
>The comment about your website I still think is very justified, every
>academic knows that presentation is important. It helps people to read and
>understand what you are saying.
I didn't get your point. You haven't said anything about the website that I
understand.
>As for your comment about never trolling, in case you are unaware when you
>saw things like"you are a LIAR" the CAPS is essentially shouting,
BS. It's called "emphasis".
> if I was talking to someone and they shouted I was a liar at me I would
> not be happy. They can tell me they don't belive me but not in that
> fashion thanks all the same. Whether you don't think you troll because
> you do not realize the way you come across I don't know but to everyone
> else you come across as a troll.
Meaning that I tell the truth? What's wrong with that?
>You said " I have as much right to post mountain bike-related articles in
>mountain-bike-related newsgroups as anyone else does, don't I?" Well to be
>honest, no you don't. You are posting material of an anti-mountain biking
>nature in an area reserved for mountain bikers to discuss mountain biking.
You are full of shit. alt.mountain-bike is for discussing mountain biking,
NOT only for promoting mountain biking. Are you really that ignorant?!
>If someone came into a newsgroup dedicated to helping the environment and
>started accusing everyone of standing in the way of progress and being
>Luddites I assume they would not be welcome and either merely tolerated,
>flamed, or banned. You should post in news groups that are for talking
>about the environment, animals, ecology etc.
I do. I post everywhere that my comments are on topic.
> Don't attack mountain bikers,
I don't "attack" anyone. I just tell the truth.
>you will not get anywhere. I know most governments are useless but you
>should be campaigning through the official channels as it has more chance
>of success.
I do.
> If mountain bikers are as much of a threat as you make out then you will
> be heard. Better chance of success that way than winding up mountain
> bikers in their newsgroups.
You are winding yourselves up.
>As for the not doing anything to make mountain bikers look bad, you do
>antagonize them (intentionally or not) and then when the less restrained
>unleash on you you use that example to show how bad we all are.... Not all
>mountain bikers are like that, same as any other large group of people
>will have different types of people within it.
You guys are so transparent! You always say that the "bad" mountain bikers
aren't representative of mountain bikers. But there are so MANY of them, it
shows that you are full of shit.
>Section 4 was all about owning a car, is your house green etc. Nothing to
>do with my mountain biking
Right. Irrelevant.
> but if you drive a car or don't recycle then you are doing more damage
> to the planet than I am by biking on routes that exist already and it
> defeats all your arguments as what is that point in saving a few area
> from being invaded when the whole planet is slowly getting more damaged.
> The point was if you want people to take you seriously you need to be
> actively doing all you can towards your cause.
I am, but you don't bother to read my website, so you don't know that.
>Your answer of "Of course. DUH!" is very wishy washy, do you mean you
>don't own a car in your family? That you recycle everything you can?
>Please elaborate further. I am told you work for SBC (a major regional
>phone company about to purchase AT&T) in San Ramon. If this is right why
>do you work for a company that strings up telephone lines all over the
>countryside and is involved in wireless technology that you have now added
>to your hate list? I don't understand how you can preach to mountain
>bikers about the damage they cause then work for a company like SBC? Also
>I was told you were chucked out of the Sierra Club, which is a shame for
>you as they could have been very helpful to your cause.
You obviously would rather talk about me, an irrelevant subject, than
address the damage you are doing by mountain biking. You also obviously
have no idea where I work.
>Lastly I just wanted to ask why you attack mountain bikers so much when to
>be fair we feature low down on the list of damage causing factors. Horses,
>motorbikes, and 4x4's all do vast amounts more damage so why do I not see
>any reports of you posting in 4x4 or horse riding news groups etc when I
>am on the Internet. It puzzles me greatly and makes it look like you found
>an easy target in mountain bikers and stuck with it.
There are a lot more mountain bikers, so they do a lot more damage. You
aren't here to learn anything, only to continue rationalizing your
destructive sport. You are a waste of time.
Don't send me any more email. EVER I added you to my idiot filter, for
obvious reasons.
>Looking forward to your reply
Hold your breath....
>
>Matt
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************
From: Matt
Date: 02/01/05 16:57:59
To: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Re: your reply
Hi Mike
Would love to discuss this further. I must be making some good points as you have resorted to attacking me personally...... Maybe we could talk about this in person or on the phone? I believe your number is (***)***-**** as this is given still on the ****** **** website. Shall I call you? If the number is wrong then let me know what your number is as I really would like to discuss this further. If I don't hear from you I will try calling and see if I can get hold of you that way. You never answered my questions in a proper manner, you misquote me, you think extremist means you know extremely more about the issue, and now you resort to abusive language! Not professional behavior and not very good advertising for you or your cause.
Regards
Matt
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