1. INTRODUCTION [TOC] This document is a discussion carried on about various issues to do with Ella Associates. The conversation may be somewhat difficult to follow at times because this has been 'cut-and-paste' from various emails 2. THE DISCUSSION [TOC] --- Valérie_Grundy <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi there > > In view of the below, it would be helpful if you could > fill me in on something. No doubt through distance, I > havent at all understood at all what the e-learning > aspect of this involves, aside from the help function > attached to the dictionary writer. You've no doubt > discussed this, so sorry to be probably five steps > behind. I assume you're not thinking of attaching a full > bilingual lexicographical training. I'm confused between > form and content. Explicitely, is the e-learning aspect > to do with learning to use an XML editor to create a > dictionary or is it to do with actually teaching biling > lexicography? I'd be the only person with the experience > to do the latter and it would be an immense undertaking - > plus the fact that I think a lot of potential licencees > of ALEXIS would not be in the situation where they felt > their lexicographers needed to learn everything from > scratch. > Let me know if I've completely misunderstood. > > Meanwhile, 2 people to sound out in Spain are Teresa > Cabré at what I guess is Unversity of Catalunya. She was > second-in-command on the Catalan (monoling) dicty > published in 1995. I've not met her but she's reckoned to > be very personable - and even more so, Manuel Alvar at > the university of Malaga. He's a very nice guy who's been > engaged in bilingual lexicography for a long time. Has > done dicties for VOX - they're pretty gruesome in > themselves and look as if they'd been hand-typed in 1935 > in a Chicago newspaper office, but he knows his stuff. > He'd be a good person to talk to. I reckon (as does > colleague Henri) that he'd be useful on the subject of > concrete problems of dictionary-writing programs > experienced in the past. > > OK, that's all for now > > Valerie Nick: few addenda to msg from before... For my brief outline on the dictionary creation process, Robert: ??? The documentation process has started in earnest. Before we get much further, we all need passwords for the protected section of the Ella site. To transmit these them passwords, Matthew and I need all of you to send us PGP public keys so we can send you encrypted messages with your respective passwords. Please read his notes on setting up PGP: [*]http://ella-associates.org/alexis-info/docs/pgp-quick-guide.html Iīve laid out the documents in five sections: programming, conceptual, business, design and elearning. They're a bit of a shell at the moment, but this (and its successor which we'll all be able to edit using Alexis) is the core of how we're going to communicate and organise our work together - if that's OK by you all. For the moment, you can go to: [*]http://ella-associates.org/internal/alexis-docs/ and log in with username: nick and password n1ckn1ck. This password will be gotten rid of as soon as you've all got your own valid passwords. It would be helpful from a security angle (and frustrate Mu no end) if this could happen soon. By tomorrow there will be a simple comment facility whereby we can all add our comments (and view everyone else's) to any document in the site. If you've got more general queries/comments/think the basic structure-idea needs a rethink, I am HERE for you ALL. Re Robertīs query: http://ella-associates.org/internal/alexis-docs/concept/dictionaryProcesses.htm Nick: itīs an xml editor (not SGML) - there is a significant difference. Robert: I'm refering here to the original sgml editor. There might be quite an interest in this from non-cash loaded organisations/people and sgml is in fact a quite reasonable mark-up language for dictionaries. The issue is whether a free sgml editor would provide the right sort of image in relation to marketing Alexis to clients who need this sort of networked XML editing facility and who can afford to pay for it. The problem with a free SGML editor is that they do exist (at least for XML)- probably the most intersting looking XML editor iīve seen is free: [*]http://www.xmlspy.com/products_doc.html (Authentic). Unfortunately, the SGML editor I made, while we could give it away had (a) very basic SGML implementation (no attributes e.g.), (b) setting up the database was a lot of manual work which you couldnt expect a non-programmer to do and (c) import-export and so forth didnt exist. So, even though it worked as an editor (once I set it up) for the Ella dictionaries, to make it a useful product for anyone else to use required a lot of things, which are of course basic in Alexis. In short, there wont be a free SGML editor which would be distributable, outside of Alexis, and certainly I dont think image-wise anything less than a professional-level product is good for ze image. On the other hand, Iīm well into some form of shared use of Alexis, but probably after we've got enough focussed input from users to let us put a downloadable version up, say, locked to a specific collaborative dictionary. Certain components of the software, in particular the actual Java WYSIWYG XML editor (which is only about 25% of the whole Alexis application), might be good to publish to the Java community. Very different angle, but ... big kisses y'all nick -----Mensaje original----- De: Robert Grundy [mailto:[email protected]] Enviado el: jueves, 10 de abril de 2003 13:46 Para: Nick Reddel Asunto: Seaside visit Nick I've decided not to come down - it would probably get in the way of your work. Nick: Well, I think in a way it's good to have things set out as you've done below, in a way it's easier for me to get a grip on where you're at than talking about it. Iīve finally started on the program and system documentation, the outlines of which you'll probably end up intimately acquainted with...and am in quite a pro-documentation, pro-e-learning mood. But, that aside, you, Marcus and I do need to get together without beer, with some print outs of the various funding proposal and business plan documents, and start filling them out. I can be back Easter Friday onwards...let's sync. Robert: OK for all marketing of ALEXIS initially. As the company is set up and we have a development plan this might be the best route as setting up the Spanish company looks as if it could take quite some time and be complicated. Nick: Could I have some details (or at least a summary) of how difficult and complicated this is? There are some obvious advantages to going spanish, so I think we shouldnīt drop it. And even though we can apply through Ella UK before Ella Spain exists, it may be fragmenting our efforts/business concept. So...we need to decide, together, definitively on this one...and then we can actually start moving, either way. Robert: This is more Marcus's baby as my Spanish limits me here If we go through ELLA (UK) we could look at going for fundng from two different sources 1) for taking ALEXIS to market 2) for e-learning. Nick: Yep I am worried that the e-learing is going to take quite a time to get right so we are probably looking at going to market with ALEXIS without e-learning Nick: I think of e-learning as a more incremental thing. Most products (epic, xmetal et al) only provide a help file. Some (Macromedia) provide tutorials. My idea, at least at first, is to provide: (1) Comprehensive help manual with the product. At least equivalent degree of detail to XMetal, Epic. We wonīt go to market (although may beta) without this. (2) Free online support while on beta, and for at least 2 months for any bought product (again, this is in the early stages of Alexis). This will give us the type of user information (i.e. what isnīt clear or easy in terms of using the system) that we can use to develop tutorials and courses. I donīt actually think that developing our e-learning totally pre-launch would be a good idea in any case, since our preconceptions of what users need will probably be quite out, in terms of both relative importance and conceptual understanding. (3) Later, an e-learning course. As Iīve said before, this depends a lot on how far we integrate aspects of the dictionary creation process into Alexis. For my brief outline on the dictionary creation process, Robert: ??? . Once we have clients we can ask them to test our e-learning for us - free of charge. The other route is to put up the sgml editor free Nick: itīs an xml editor (not SGML) - there is a significant difference. Robert: I'm refering here to the original sgml editor. There might be quite an interest in this from non-cash loaded organisations/people and sgml is in fact a quite reasonable mark-up language for dictionaries. The issue is whether a free sgml editor would provide the right sort of image in relation to marketing Alexis to clients who need this sort of networked XML editing facility and who can afford to pay for it. Nick: On velly velly mature reflection, I donīt think putting it up for free is quite the right idea. Itīs quite a specialised product, and should really be targeted at its particular market - software for download is normally quite general. The "put it up and see" approach is a little...non-selective. Additionally, (1) Putting it up would competitors a bit too much information(at least to start with, before weīve really made it secure against reverse engineering). (2) Initial dictionary creation will involve a fair hike up the learning curve, which would discourage casual downloaders. I envisage us providing quite comprehensive, human support at the dictionary creation stage (i.e. how the schema(e) relate to other internal settings, so as to provide the most comfortable lexicographical/editor environment;; what the file security/control policies should be - that sort of thing. It's something that is better done by one central agency (i.e. us), unless a given company is going to be using Alexis for a fair quantity of different projects) with some (rudimentary) e-learning around it (again for free). This would allow a good development cycle and was as you know my original plan. Unfortunately, I personally cant afford to take a slow, relaxed take it as it comes approach on Alexis. It more or less takes up my whole life, which means financially and lifewise I need to get it on, as quickly (consistent with quality) as I possibly can. Robert: That's understandable and the e-learning thing neednt get in the way of this. Your thoughts on this would be welcome. zanks 3 R Added by: mjb, on Fri Apr 11 21:23:51 CEST 2003 The comment script seems to be working at the moment Added by: mjb, on Fri Apr 11 21:28:36 CEST 2003 The comment script seems to be working at the moment Added by: mjb, on Fri Apr 11 21:29:15 CEST 2003 Another comment Added by: mjb, on Fri Apr 11 21:31:29 CEST 2003 one more comment Added by: mjb, on Fri Apr 11 21:39:20 CEST 2003 one more comment Added by: [anonymous], on Fri Apr 11 21:40:35 CEST 2003 the script is really working |