        An Interview With Christopher "Kit" Haffner

        Kit Haffner was initiated into the Corinthian Lodge of
Amoy, meeting in Hong Kong, 25 years ago.  He became its
Master in 1971, and has subsequently been through the chairs
of lodges and higher degree bodies in the English, Irish and
Scottish constitutions. Kit Haffner is patented by the Grand
Master of England as District Grand Master for Hong Kong and the
Far East, and he holds Grand Rank under the Grand Lodge of
Ireland, the Supreme Grand Chapter of England, the Mark Grand
Lodge of England and its attached Ark Mariners. he holds the
3Oth degree.

	His first full book, The Craft in the East was published
in 1975. He belongs to Lodges of research in Hong Kong, Ireland,
Maine, California and New York, and in 1984 received the signal
honour of full membership of the Quatuor Coronati Lodge of
London, the premier lodge of Masonic research, with a restricted
memberehip of 40 from its Correspondence Circle of 14,000. In
1982, he was awarded the Ira S. Holder Sr. Certificate of
Literature for an article Prince Hall Freemasonry in the far East.
He received Honorary Fellowship of the Phylaxie Society. In
1987, he received Fellowship of the Philalethes Society in
Washington, D.C. An honor limited to 40 members, of which he is
the only holder outside America - and the Taskashi Komatsu
Distinguiehed Service Award of the Grand Lodge of Japan.

        At the present time he is the Maeter of Quatuor Coronati
Lodge.

        The interview was conducted by Bro. Joseph A. Walkes, Jr.,
President of the Phylaxis Society at Leavenworth, Kansas.

        l. You have been a subscriber of the Phylaxis magazine
a number of years. We published your "Prince Hall Masonry in
the Far East,"  awarded  you our Ira S. Holder Certificate of
Literature and named you an honorary fellou of our Society. What
do you think of our publication?

        It is the only periodical which I see related to the
Prince Hall fraternity, and I enjoy it and read every issue from
cover to cover.  It is as interesting reading it for comment on                                                                                                                                                                                         wish @omething could be done to improve the quality of reproduction of the      photographs. Perhaps it'@ the blue ink. I       "ould c@rtainly miss the magazine if it oea sed, and I wish you continued success in    that ventt@e.
current masonic affairs as it is for the longer articles.  
Having said that, I wish something could be done to improve
the quality of reproduction of the photographs. Perhaps it's the
blue ink.  I would certainly miss the magazine if it ceased, and
I wish you  continued success in that venture.


        2. As you know a number of Caucasian Grand Lodges have
recognized their Prince Hall counterparts and a number of
Caucasian Grand Lodges are considering doing the same.  By next
year we think that all total there will be from 10 to 15 that
will be recognized.  What are your thoughts on this?


	For years the split between the Black and White Grand
Lodges and their members has been a disgrace to the concept of a
universal brotherhood of "good men and true" which was written
into the first Constitution of 1723. I can only say that I
wholeheartedly welcome the steps that have been taken by both
sides in recognizing each other in the five Statee where this
has happened, presumably in the full expectation of an
antagonistic response from the dinosaurs in a couple of
Caucasian Grand Lodges in the South East.

	I think that the States where recognition has occurred
have shown the correct sense of valuee - that it is better to do
the right thing now, despite negative outside responce, than to
delay yet more. Caucasian masonry has been losing its
credibility in the States for some time, and I am sure that a
part of this is the inherent contradiction of having two
fraternities split on racial grounds. I hope that a lot more
than 15 Statee will take this step.

        3. The Grand Lodge of England has said that its members
may not visit the Lodges of Wisconson, Connecticut, Nebraska,
Washington since they have recognized Prince Hall Freemasonry
though they will allow the members of those Grand Lodges to
visit their English constitution Lodges. Realizing that you are
from the Grand Lodge of England, perhaps you can enlighten us
on this?

        I am not a member of the Board of General Purposes which
makes these decisions, and anything I say outside generally
available statements will be presumption.  But the wording of
the prohabition is, apart from the names of the Grand Lodges,
identical with that used recently for Germany when the United
Grand Lodges permitted unrecognized French masons.  It is an
extension of a principle set out by the Board of General Purposes,
issued to every mason as he receives his Grand Lodge certificate
and inserted into the summons of every lodge once a year, that
if a mason visits and finds an unrecognized mason present, he
should politely leave the meeting.  It is not intended as an
insult to anyone, but it is a recognition that masons have
fraternal relations must recognize each other.

        What is most unfortunate is that, whilst the United
Grand Lodge of England has always (unofficially) said that the
U.S. Caucasion Grand Lodges must sort their own problems, and
then England will hapily follow, when something good does
happen all that my Grand Lodge does is issue a statement with
exactly the same negative connotations as it did with Germany.
In the case of Germmany, it was desirable that that Grand Lodge
should ammend un unsatisfactory situation, whereas in the States
the reverse is the case - mutual recognition should be encouraged.

        Of course, there might well be correspondence issued by
my Grand Lodge of which I know nothing which will soon sort out
this problem in a positive way.  One thing is sure: it is the
junior jurisdiction's duty to petition for recognition from her
senior, and thus you can be sure that England will do nothing
about recognizing the PHA Grand Lodges of Connecticut, etc.,
until they petition for it, hopefully strongly supported by their
Caucasion counterparts. Again, I have no idea whether they have
done this.  Each PHA Grand Lodge should petition the world-wide
fraternity of 110 or so Grand Lodges which England recognizes,
immediately after they receive recognition within the State.

        It is also possible that England  would Greatly prefer
to have a United Grand Lodge in each State, rather than have
two recognitions.


        4. We are ouerjoyed to learn that you are the new Master
of QC Lodge 2076.Tell our readers about the premier Lodge of
Research. How many members do they have? What is the cost for
the Correspondeence Circle? What is the cost for - active
members?  Why don't they allow Prince Hall Freemasons to at
least buy their Transactions?

        The lodge was founded in 1884 and - consecrated in
1886 as a lodge in which no candidate would be made, but
in which papers on research topics - mostly historical -
which no candidate@ would be made, but in which papers on
 - would be read and comment@d upon. This was a
gentleman's agreement amongst the founders, as the lodge ie
legally a normal lodge with as much right to initiate as any
otlter. It set its ambition from the etart at producing true
history and at eliminating accrued legend and mythology. Whilst
amongst masonic scholars it had largely won the day, there
remain many who still look for the origins of modern Freemasonry
in the pyramids, in King Soloman's Temple and in the
Knights Templer. Several nonmasons have recently written almost
plausible booke which attempt to trace descent from the Templars.

        The lodge is limited to 40 full members, but has never
actually reached that number, and is currently about 32. But
there is an attached Correpondence Cirle, which has over 12,000
members.They are entitled to attend meetings and subsequent
dinners  (fortunately they never do it all at once!)  and to
correepond as much as they wish with the lodge Secretary and
members, and it is very largely from their number that new full
members came. Of course, they receive the annual transactions,
a 250 page bound book of all the papers read
and several that are of interest but could not
be read in the five meetings each year. Most important
is the comment on the papers - also printed in the Transactions
Ars Quatuor Coronatorum - a very important mechanism for
preventing the writers of papers from straying from the path of
true History.

        I think that the cost is about 20 pounds, say US $30.00
and the cost af full lodge membership is rather lees. The reason
that Prince Hall masons cannot receive the Transactions
is that membership of the Correspondence Circle is limited to
masons in jurisdictions recognized by England. It is
after all an English constitution lodge. This
ie all the more reason for the procedures which I
mentioned at the end of the last question to be carried out.


        5. Have you ever heard of Harvey Newton Brown of El Paso,
Texas?  Do you receive his vast mailings?  What are your thoughts
on him?  What about the writings of our Rev. Robert L. Uzzel?



       Cont. from prior page

        Certainly I seem to be on Harvey Newton Brown's mailing
list and receive a bulky package of electrostatic copies every
year or so. Once he eent me an application for the League of
Universal Freemasonry, I believe it was, as well as their
magazine. I found the magazine stimulating and wrote asking if I
could subscribe without becoming a member. He wrote quite an
abusive letter back, suggesting that it would be worth my while
betraying my masonic loyalties to support the principles which
he stood for to beoome a member, and what good was a magazine
without memberhip. So that was the end of that! (I am glad that
the Phylaxis permits me to subscribe without having to resign
from English masonry.) I still go through Brown's annotated texts
and occasionally file something for future reference.

	I don't think that you should mention
Bob Uzzel in the same breath! I met him last month in Waco, TX,
at the open meeting of the Texas Lodge of Reeearch. I
found him to be a most sensitive and intelligent person,
and one that from now we can count on each other as friends.
I enjoy his writings in the Phylaxis and hope that
saomeday he will get around to doing a major book.



        6. Tell our readers how you came to write Prince Hall
Masonry in the Far East. You have mentioned therein that you
have met some Prince Hall Freemasons; what have been your
thought on them?


	My general interest in masonry universal led me te buy
your own book BLACK SQUARE AND COMPASS from Macoy. Incidentally,
I thoroughly enjoyed it. In it you mentioned some military PHA
lodges which had been with their regiments in the Far East, and
so through the publishers I wrote to you for more information.
The far East is of course my specific masonic interest a
District Grand Master for Hong Kong and the Far East & author of
The Craft in the East. You were kind enough to reply, with
the information that you yourself had spent some time out East
and had a number of lodge notices and magazines from the time
that you were there. These you loaned to me on the umderstanding
that I was to be very careful witb them and that I sent them
back quickly - so I copied them and sent them back in a week!
One month my wife was away visiting her sisters in Los Angeles &
I took the opportunity to spend my evenings analyzing all that I
had received from the point of view of the snippets of history
ta the lodges themselves, but most importantly from that of the
attitudes of mind which were displayed about masonry,
about religion, about moral behaviour, about the Japanese or
Korean culture which was being experienced by Blacks. It
was an informative experience, and I hope that my paper
prperly described what was there for me to read and learn.
The paper was intended for reading to a lodge of research
in Hong Kong.

        The Prince Hall masons that I have met have been few
enough. I have met several through you in Leavenworth. I met
in Leavenworth. I met a couple through Jerry Marsengil in
Washington, D. C. I invited three to lunch in Tokyo a few
years ago, notably the Deputy of Japan of the PHA Grand Lodge
of WashingtDn (State). I am immodest enough
to believe that we enjoyed meeting each other! There was
the barrier of not being able to attend tiled meetings together,
I had to try to be tactful in my conversation (I have to do that
with Irish men too!) but there was a feeling of genuine
brotherhood nonetheless.

        7. Let me put you on the spot, what are your thoughts
on Prince Hall Freemasonry?

        I think that I can answer that very quickly. I admire
the way in which you have stood for regularity in your beliefs
and actions deepite rejection by the Caucasian fraternity and the
enticements of irregular masonry such as the Grand Orient of
France. I admire the way in which you have successfully run your
organizations despite far greater hardships than your Caucasian
counterparts, I admire the stand for morality which you have
taken in your community, where the contrasts in behavioural
patterns are probably very great. I admire the pride which seeks
recognition but not union with the Caucasian Grand Lodges
(although I hope that this pride will not rule union out, which
I would still see ae an ultimate objective if somehow your own
traditions can be recognized).

        8. You have been in Hong Kong many years now, tell
our readers about Masonry in Hong Kong.

        You might be setting me off on a four day session! My
book THE CRAFT IN THE EAST is over 400 pages long, and that was
cut down from an 800 page first draft. I will try to be brief.

        Our oldest lodge dates back to 1844. We now have 24
lodges under three jurisdictions 14 English. five Scottish and
five Irish. Membership in many lodges is Predominantly
Caucasian, but several have a Chinese majority. Other races
participate and we have many Indian members. There are not many
Blacks in Hong Kong, but one or two have become members. The
lodges  are arranged in Scottish and English districts
which have lodges also in Japan and Korea; and in
an Irish Province with a lodge oetensibly in Macau. At the
moment I am District Grand Master of the English Craft and
Grand Superintendent of the English Royal Arch chapters. There
are aigher degrees in what you would call the York and Scottish
Ritee, as well as a few bodies outside those, one being our only
American organization; the Hong Kong College of the Societas
Rosicruciana in Civitatibus Foederatis. All these bodies in Hong
Kong meet in the two "Temples" in one Masonic Hall, and there
are two meetings practically every weekday evening except in the
sleepy summer.

        We do have worries about what will happen when Hong Kong
becomes a part of China in 1997. The Basic Law Drafting committee
has disct@sed masonry with me and have stated that there is no
objection to us continuing to meet since masons obey the Law and
support the legitimate government. Our biggest problems for the
future are twofold: should we form a Grand Lodge of Hong Kong?
and will there be any masons left if there is an exodue of the
professional and bussiness men of the comunity before 1997.


        9. You came to the United States this time to present
two Masonic Lectures.   Tell our readers about them.

        When I was installed as Master of the Quatuor Coronati
Lodge , two brethren from the Texas Lodge of Research were
present.  They invited me to deliver two memorial lectures in
Texas in March, and I happily accepted.

        The L.A. Pires Lecture to the Dallas Scottish Rite Bodies
was on the subject of "Albert Pike - Asset or Liability?" and was
intended to show that respect for Albert Pike's greatness should
not lead us to an uncritical acceptance of his teachings on
religious and philisophocal topics as demonstrated in MORALS AND
DOGMA and in the ceremonies of the Southern Jurisdiction.

        The second was the Anson Jones Lecture to the Texas
Lodge of Research in Waco and was on the subject, 'What do
Freemasons Inherit?' This was intended to show that we do have a
genuine historical inheritance from the mid l4th century, but
that we cannot justifiably go back further in history.
Furthermore, all the indications are that we inherited a very
simple set of ceremonies from our forebears in the early l8th
century, which cannot possibly justify any belief in an
inhertance from the Templars, the gnostics, or any
other heretical body - our masonic fathers were good members
of the universal prereformation church.

                                              Cont. on back page
                              Page 14 - THE PHYLAXIS - June 1991


       Cont. from page 14

        One of the purposes af picking these topics was related
to my recent interest in the relation of masonry to the Christian
faith, as I have been very ooncerned about the unjustified
criticism of our Order by illinformed fundamentalists and even
liberal Christians.

       10. Tell our readers about your new book, WORKMAN UNASHAMED
- THE TESTIMONY OF A CHRISTIAN FREEMASON.

        This was a book that I just had to write. I have been
a church-going Christian ever since I was converted under the
ministry of Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd Jones in November 1949.
I became a mas@ 13 years later, not in any way as a desertion
of my Christian beliefs, but as a complement to them.
I have read the anti-masonic books produced by Christians
ever the years, first Walton Hannah's DARKNESS VISIBLE and then
othera such as John Lawrence's FREEMASONRY - A RELIGION?,
including some by non-Christians who presumed to say why the two
were incompatible, notably Stephen Knight's THE BROTHERHOOD.

         Almost without exception they did three things: they read
masonic ritual and picked out the bits which seemed incompatible
with Christianity without reading the whole; they took our symbols
and reinterpreted them in their own adverse way without reference
to the actual teaching of masonry; and they took the personal
opinions of masons like Pike and Fort Newton and presumed them to
be official and that all masons are required by their Grand Lodges
to believe the same rubbish.  If Wilmshurst and Manly Hall are
heretics, the Kit Haffner must be one too.  All of this is very
persuasive to the ignorant outsider, but just annoys the informed
outsider, but just annoys the informed mason. Stephen Knight also
tried unsuccessfully to prove that masons are sometimes illegal and
immoral but in not one single case did his storiee have anything
like real evidence behind them. I decided that if no one else
was doing it these accusations ahould be examined one by one
and refuted logically.

       My book is constructed in four parts. The first
explains maeonry in general, its structure and distribution,
including a mention of you in connection with the Prince Hall
and Caucasian split- The second deals with the beliefs inculcated
by masonry, even though it is carefully explained that these are
not exclusive of other beliefs in the holders of religious
faith. The third part deals one by one with the accusations of
heresy such as deism, gnosticism, Pelagianism and baal worship
which are ujustifiably levelled at us. And the last part deals
with what masonry  might learn from its critics, and what the
churches might learn from us.

        It has reasonably good sales, and my only wish would have
been that it might have been published more quickly so that it would
have come out before the York Synod of the Church of England (The
equivalent of the Episcopal Church) debated its working party's
report, CHRISTIANITY AND FREEMASONRY - ARE THEY COMPATIBLE?  -
A CONTRIBUTION TO THE DISCUSSION I should emphasize that this
basically antimasonic report was passed for discussion, and not
ae a condemnation of the Craft. Although Prince Hall Masonry's
position with the churches is not as difficult ae it that of the
Caucasian Craft, I nevertheless feel that many of your readers
will fmd my book to be helpful if they are at all concerned to
justify their membership to their fellow Christians, and indeed
to point to some possible answers to their own doubts. The truth
will set us free (John 8:32), and Ankerberg, etc.. are doing a
disservice to the truth.

                               June 1991 - THE PHYLAXIS - Page 16
















