| Author |
Comment |
kellymccoy
Guest
(10/24/02
5:43:23 am)
Reply
|
early
neurological stimulation
i try to promote people doing the early neuro on puppies,its so
important,and really does make a huge difference.i'm interested to
hear from people who's breeders did this with the
pups..........................................................................................
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labby
Mom to
6 Angels and
the Shanny
Monster
Posts: 1851
(10/24/02
10:08:28 am)
Reply
 |
I do
it...............
and yes I think I see a difference. I just started doing it with
Libby's litter which are 13 months old. I believe I see a difference
on how she "sees" new situations compared to previous litters.
† 
†
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Blessed is
the person who has earned the love of an old dog."
Sydney Jeanne
Seward
 |
Coles
Mom
Junior
Member
Posts: 386
(10/24/02
10:10:25 am)
Reply
|
Re: I do
it...............
I'm really intrigued, what exactly is done for this stimulation?
Cole's Page |
kellymccoy
Guest
(10/24/02
10:52:53 am)
Reply
|
coles mom
colesmom first i wanted to thank you for being so nice to me when i
first stumbled onto the forum,if it wasn't for you and fredsmom i
would have never come back,because now i have met so many nice
people..................anyway the early neuro is also called the
''superdog program' it a precursor to socializtion,that causes them
to develop in various ways that aid them later in life.....maybe
someone can find it and post it
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Lady
Duck Hunter
Junior
Member
Posts: 84
(10/24/02 11:10:19
am)
Reply
|
Re: Super dog
program
Kristy Wilder and I talked about this a few years ago. And I tried
in on a litter...specifically as prescribed. The pups turned out to
be nice but I can't say they were any different than any other
litters we've had....but you see, I have always done something
similar to this to all the litters...just didn't know it had a name.
We handle, talk to, hold in various positions, place the pups on
various textures and surfaces from the beginning. I hold them close
to my lips when they are new born and softly say pup pup pup blowing
breaths into their noses. Later I use Pup-Pup-Pup to call them -
which transfers to the come in whistle in training (Tweet-Tweet-
Tweet) We also expose them to loud noises - banging on walls,
dropping the kibble into their food pan producing multiple pinging
noises before we add the warm milk. and typical family /home
sounds...like radio and TV.
Our pups are mostly very self
confident, bond easily to their new families, and handle change
well...as reported back from our puppy buyers.
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Coles
Mom
Junior
Member
Posts: 391
(10/24/02
11:59:37 am)
Reply
|
Re: Super dog
program
(((KellyMcCoy)))
What can I say, we have a mutual friend
(LeAnne) in common. Once I knew you knew her, I knew you couldn't be
all bad (totally kidding!!!!)
Thanks for the explanation
about neuro stimulation. Here I'm thinking there is some cattle-prod
type device involved (kidding again)!!
Cole's Page |
labby
Mom to
6 Angels and
the Shanny
Monster
Posts: 1858
(10/24/02
12:25:40 pm)
Reply
|
Coles
Mom.............
you can read about it here if you want.
www.woodhavenlabs.com/biosensor.html
Or
my friend cattski's page where she has actual pictures of doing it
with her curlies.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/curlycr/2001pups2a.html
†
†
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Blessed is
the person who has earned the love of an old dog."
Sydney Jeanne
Seward
|
Bob
Pr
Junior
Member
Posts: 1954
(10/24/02
6:01:29 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
Biosensor/Super Dog programs
I'm not sure about this.
I've read both of the references
Labby gave and maybe these procedures are good and maybe they're
part hokum. When no comparative data is presented on # of animals
(or breeds) used, the measures of performance and the scores on
those scales, and especially the
results of studies showing the results of doing vs. NOT doing those
particular
exercises, then it's hard to say that
these particular exercises accomplish -- or do not accomplish --
what their promoters say.
There is certainly NO disagreement
on the beneficial effects of early experience, of sensitive (or
critical) periods. Scott & Fuller's monumental, classic studies,
as e.g., Genetics & the Social
Behavior of the Dog (1965) showed the
effects of giving puppies various early experiences and the effects
of their lack. Biological studies on stress along with psychological
studies on arousal have both shown that there's an optimal level
which faciltates performance and development. It's become so
increasingly obvious over the last twenty years that there is a
dynamic, interacting relation between the genes, experience, and
developmental age -- that it's not very meaningful to speak of one
providing XX% of the contribution while the other gives 1-XX%.
Without doubt, it's certainly worthwhile to give young
puppies the experience of being handled by people and experience
with various stimuli.
But 3" - 5"/day with each of these
tasks? I'd certainly want to see the research studies on it. I doubt
that it would hurt much but I do question the effectiveness of these
tasks as opposed to some other experiences.
I think bending
the sprout and the twig in the direction that you'd want the limb
and tree to grow makes the most sense until we have more definitive
studies on what helps the most.
It sure does seem to me that
are as many carney-type barkers earning a living promoting -- with
dogs -- this or that approach as we humans have cult leaders,
fat-loss gurus, magnetic amulets to relieve joint aches, etc.
Edited by: Bob
Pr at: 10/25/02 2:17:35 am
|
kellymccoy
Guest
(10/24/02
6:44:35 pm)
Reply
|
early
neuro
bob i'm not sure which labby has on her site,but they have done
research.scott and fuller did studies try typing in carmen l
battaglia phd on your search engine it should detail the clinical
study.......i can tell you from experience it works.....i would not
want any pup that had not had this done,believe when i first saw it
i thought the same thing...........
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Bob
Pr
Junior
Member
Posts: 1957
(10/24/02
7:03:21 pm)
Reply
|
Re: early
neuro
(I had to dash to a meeting and wasn't able to say all I wanted at
the time. So I've expanded the earlier post.)
Kelly -- You
don't even have to look on Labby's site. And I don't have to do a
search. In Labby's post just above, her first URL goes to:
Early
Neurological Stimulation
by Dr. Carmen L. Battaglia
Dr. Battaglia describes in
detail his exercises, times, and program. The references he cited in
support of his statements and approach were(!!):
1.
Battaglia, C.L., "Loneliness and Boredom" Doberman Quarterly, 1982.
(The Doberman Quarterly is a scientific
publication?!?)
2. Kellogg,
W.N. & Kellogg, L.A. (1933) The Age and the Child, New York:
McGraw Hill.
(A book -- written
almost 70 years ago -- by a psychologist couple raising a chimpanzee
with their son is certainly a peculiar item to fill 25% of the
listed references. This book was one of the first reports examining
the developmental sequences and rates of ape behavior and
contrasting them with that of humans.
BUT
as a pertinent, meaningful reference to the program he promotes
-----?!?!)
3. Scott &
Fuller, (1965) Dog Behaviour -The Genetic Basics, University Chicago
Press.
(This is either an
inexcusable, sloppy, inaccurate citation OR, maybe? - a deliberate
attempt to derail finding the reference? This is actually the only
meaningful reference to the area that Battaglia is dealing with. The
correct
title is Genetics and the Social Behavior
of the Dog. This work, IMO (along
with the work of the European ethologists, plus that of Eckhard Hess
& Harry Harlow) was among the pivotal works diverting and
expanding psychology from its obsessive preoccupation with Learning
Theory.
4. Whately, David,
Scott, J.P., Ross, S., A.E. and King D.K. (1959) The Effects of
Early enforced Weaning on Stickling Behaviour of Puppies, J.
Genetics Psychologist, p5:
261-81.
(I've never heard of the
"J. Genetics Psychologist" -- this is a garbled reference or
possibly non-existent. In 1959, psychology didn't have enough
interest in genetics to support a journal dedicated to it. But the
article's title is one that would have been appropriate to a
psychological journal dedicated to developmental issues or, more
probably, the Journal of Comparative & Physiological Psychology.
I'll look up the authors and the reference.)
Isn't this is a VERY
strange assortment of older references to have in support of a
program with such specific time and experiences to put a pup
through?
So-o, in looking over the reference citations,
nothing makes me comfortable. And the odor I've been beginning to
smell is getting stronger.
I start wondering -- does
Battaglia sell something? -- videos and "how to" programs? Is there
a lot of hype on the Gr-reat! advantages of his approach? I strongly
suspect he does.
NEXT -- the most critical test of all --
how is this person's work regarded by other recognized experts in
the field? I look in my books on dogs by Serpell, Coppinger &
C., Fox, McConnell, Coren, the Monks of N.S., UC-Davis, etc. --
sources I respect -- for references to Battaglia. (By this time,
maybe I'm getting a big smell, as if there's a lot of hucksterism
going on.) But, maybe I'm wrong? -- maybe other authorities in the
field, recognized experts have cited him? BUT I find
NOTHING.
I don't doubt for a minute that Battaglia's approach
and videos -- if there are any -- could be a great marketing
advantage in selling puppies to many prospective buyers. Show them
the video and say, "Look what you're
getting with my
puppies that other breeders don't
give you -- the latest chrome strip, tail fin, etc."
But is that good science?
Naw.
It's marketing.
Lady Duck Hunter has an
approach that's reasonable and makes sense.
Battaglia's is
fluff and does not.
Edited by: Bob
Pr at: 10/25/02 2:10:53 am
|
kellymccoy
Guest
(10/25/02
3:02:32 am)
Reply
|
bob
bob no i didn't have time to go over there,this in the peformance
retriever world is considered the standard,try posting that over on
the wrc and see what happens?? i agree with lady duck hunter that
alot of us have done something similar over the years,but i'll
guarentee kristie wilder is doing this with her maxx puppies.and i
am speaking from experience... . carmen battaglia is highly
regarded,certainly not someone i would be desparaging .my suggestion
would be on your next litter try only doing it on half of them ,then
you will be a believer
|
kellymccoy
Guest
(10/25/02
3:32:39 am)
Reply
|
experts
bob i will tell you the trainers you listed,are not known to the
preformance retriever world,and if they had no capacity to train
dogs off leash that will work and preform and great distances from
the handler they never will be,the trainers you list are in my mind
remedial compared to people like jim and phyliss dobbs ,mike lardy
and others,i don't have a dog one this propety that will not come
immeadiatly irregardless on the distration.i did not aquire the
ability to train them this way from anyone you listed,and as far as
i know carmen battaglia has no vested interest in promoting it,
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Bob
Pr
Junior
Member
Posts: 1960
(10/25/02
10:16:42 am)
Reply
|
Re: early
neurological stimulation
Kelly --
Have I ever said anything to make you assume I'm a
breeder? I'm not even a hunter.
The post interested me
because I've long had an interest in the effects of early
stimulation, sensitive (critical) periods, ethology, comparative
psychology -- and dogs.
I mistakenly assumed you'd be
familiar with those names since you'd implied you have a degree in
behavioral science and are familiar with principles in that area.
Most of the names I listed are not mainly known for being dog
trainers -- most are ethologists or psychologists who have written
well-known books on dogs and the nature of dogs.
If
Battaglia's kind of thinking is standard in the performance
retriever world -- fine, probably little or no harm done. Use it as
a technique, or a fad, or wishful thinking. Just don't promote it as
science or pass it off as established developmental/neurological
fact.
I don't know what "Dr." Carmen Battaglia's game is or
what he gets out of it. (And BTW, people with a doctorate list the
type of doctorate they have -- MD, DVM, PhD, etc.)
I've read
enough to see that he passes himself off as a person with knowledge
of scientific developmental neurological principles. I see
absolutely nothing that backs up that image.
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kellymccoy
Guest
(10/25/02
10:44:41 am)
Reply
|
early
neuro
bob i'm more than familiar with the people you mentioned.i
specialize in practical application not theory.carmen battaglia is a
phd if you go back and look .theres alot of people you need to tell
not to promote this before me,that could take a long long time
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Caseys
Mom
Junior
Member
Posts: 95
(10/25/02 10:46:38
am)
Reply
 |
Re: early
neurological stimulation
Bob Pr. Here's a brief cv: www.breedingbetterdogs.com/author.html
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kellymccoy
Guest
(10/25/02
10:54:31 am)
Reply
|
caseysmom
your the best, thanks for the tip earlier,i was starting to think
won't be needing that.
|
Coles
Mom
Junior
Member
Posts: 413
(10/25/02
10:56:08 am)
Reply
|
Re: early
neurological stimulation
I think we needed to add Shane's banner to this thread awhile ago
<grin>!
In reading the information I can understand
what Bob is saying about people who profess alot of hooey and may
reference less than scientific studies to back up their theory for
the sake of selling books, videos, whatever. I do have quite a bit
of strong belief in the power of early neurological stimulation for
pet animals and babies, but this came from years of studying
undergraduate Psychological theory. I also think that techniques
covered in the information by Battaglia are so rudimentary why would
you even need to purchase a book and a video to do them? It doesn't
seem like this technique is anyone's personal intellectual property
and hey, we learned about it and didn't have to pay a dime. 
I personally think that these are worthwhile techniques and the very
fact we were able to find out about them without paying for them
would lend me to believe that this is on the up-and-up....Bob, am I
missing something here? I understand your point but I'm not sure I
understand using Battaglia as an example of the behavior you
disparage? 
Cole's Page |
kellymccoy
Guest
(10/25/02
11:04:36 am)
Reply
|
colesmom
no one i know has ever purchased this info,its free.its been
reprinted and sent to all members of iams breeders club plus alot of
people on the wrc list it on there site.i have rasied countless
litters and see huge a difference i have slight modifications,i also
dip the toes in room temp water.plus a little kiss on the tum
tum..............................................i suggest any one
raising a litter do this,
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Caseys
Mom
Junior
Member
Posts: 96
(10/25/02 11:37:09
am)
Reply
|
Re:
colesmom
Batagglia definitely has books, seminars, videos, etc. available
for sale but they seem to be focused on breeding and genetics rather
than neonatal stimulation. I have to agree with Bob Pr. that I'm
less than impressed by the references he cited. Too bad he omitted a
direct reference to the army study. Now that might be interesting
reading.
I know we stored Shane's banner somewhere...
|
LJ
Junior Member
Posts: 1518
(10/25/02 12:09:50 pm)
Reply
 |
Re:
colesmom
What is Dr. Battaglia a doctor of?
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Coles
Mom
Junior
Member
Posts: 416
(10/25/02
12:12:01 pm)
Reply
|
Re:
colesmom
LJ - he has a PhD (Doctorate of Philosophy) most often given to
persons such as clinical psychologists, behaviorists, etc.
Psychiatrists and anyone who requires a license to practice medicine
receive Medical Doctorates (MDs).
With edit - it occurred to
me you may have been asking what his actual degree was in. Sorry for
the rudimentary explanation of PhD's if that was the case.
Cole's Page Edited by: Coles
Mom at: 10/25/02 1:16:24
pm
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