------------------------------
From: [email protected] (MR MICHAEL A IANNANTUONO)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:56:59 EDT
Subject: Thank you, Merci, Grazie,...,
I have resolved my problem associated with the pesky
gearbox fill plug on my 115 Spider. Allow me to thank all
those great Alfisti abroad that provided valuable input:
Joe Chan
Bruce Giller
Obadiah Fayth
Jack Hagerty
Teruhiko Higashi
The solution to getting that stripped fill plug (aluminum,
not brass, as I had incorrectly mentioned) off, was a
combination of, better ground clearance (I got all four
corners higher off the ground with jack stands) for
improved leverage, a big soldering gun for localized heat
application, vice grips (but of course), and one of my,
"blunt" instruments, a cheater bar that I lovingly refer
to as "Monkey Killer".
No animals were harmed in the making of this movie.
After the extraction, I went to my spare gearbox, to swipe
its fill plug, and I noticed that it WAS brass, just like
the fill plug on the LSD. It then became apparent that the
previous sociopath,..eh..owner, had damaged the brass fill
plug, and replaced it with an aluminum drain plug.
Now, Luciana has 2 wonderful quarts of Red Line MT-90 in
her gearbox, and all is right again.
Thanks again everybody!
I knew that computers were good for something.
Something other that being the cause of "Check Engine"
warning lights, I mean.
Forza,
Mike in NC
'74 Spider Veloce 2000
------------------------------
From: [email protected] (Bruce Giller)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:47:40 -0500
Subject: Re: 115 Gearbox Fill Plug
Mike Laments:
>After several successful episodes with the other brass fill
>and drain plugs on my 115 Spider, I have arrived at an
>impasse, regarding the one that resides on the gearbox fill
>port. Even with the use of a high quality American tool,
>and the conscious effort to maintain a 90 degree torque
>angle-- it still stripped. What can I do/use to get this
>thing off? Something that will work in the closed environs
>where it is located.
Can't you get a vicegrip on the recalcitrant filler plug to get it
out of the gearbox? I think that there is enough to grip down there. And
once they are free, you can turn them by hand.
>I understand that many Alfisti, fill
>their gearboxes from the shifter opening. I would like to
>avoid this, if possible, because I just spent numerous
>months installing a brand new interior, and the thought of
>removing it makes me ill. Any suggestions will be greatly
>appreciated.
I've heard of such craziness but since 1/10 of my gear lube leaks
out all over the place, I'd never attempt it. I have about 4' of plastic
tubing that I snake thru the open engine compartment and then into the fill
port. I cut off about 1/4" off of the cone-shaped filler nozzle on the
gear lube bottle, cram into the plastic tube and squeeze the bottle. The
stuff flows better when hot, so I soak the bottles in a tub of hot water
for about 20 mintues. You need to check the fill port for overflow when it
is full. And I still drip lube on me and the ground!
Bruce
------------------------------
From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 20:52:14 -0400
Subject: "Gears"
There have been a couple of recent posts mentioning lightening of Alfa gears
by undercutting and/or drilling. One mentioned that there was an article in
Alfa Owner a few years back. It was longer than that, but yes there was,
complete with useful drawings. The last time the subject came up on the
Digest I offered to send Xerox copies of the article to anyone who sent a
stamped self-addressed envelope to _Gears_, 6308 Lakeway Drive, Raleigh N. C.
27612. One response came in with a self-addressed envelope and a warmly
appreciative note but without the stamp. I copied, supplied stamp, and sent
the article anyhow with a mild sense of incongruity . However, the offer
stands, that is _Gears_ , repeat, _Ge-- This is not a money making endeavor,
if respondents wish to include a stamp, perhaps loose change (if any, the
looser the better) to defray copy costs, or perhaps a lock of hair or
autographed flake of rusty floorboard (according to gender) or other memento
of the transaction that would be sweet-
John
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chavdar Popov <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:27:13 +0100
Subject: Re: italian-cars-digest V3 #103
In message <[email protected]>, owner-
[email protected] writes
>Subject: Fiat gear oil
If you check in any Castrol oil catalogue, you will see that a different spec
(without EP adds) is listed for old Fiats. Problem is, you can only get
this brand from a very major Castrol supplier.
I was advised by Castrol that this oil is similar to any standard engine oil,
so I was told to put in my 132 gearbox 15W40 Selenia Oil - same goes in the
engine sump. Sine then I have covered 20K miles and the box is as smooth as
ever.
Chavdar
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/chavdar
------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (Karl Doll )
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:59:35 -0700
Subject: EP Gear Oil
WOW! The recent postings about gear oil made me scurry to the garage to
see what I've been using in my tranny. It is Valvoline High performance
Gear Oil 80W-85W-90, GL-5/GL-4/GL-3, which I bought at the local
discount parts place. The front label says nothing about "EP", but the
text on the back says "...is a high performance, extreme pressure-type
gear lubricant.."
Does anybody know if the labelling requirements in the USA would make
them put "EP" designation on the front label? Is this a true
Fiat-damaging "EP" oil?
Possibly there are internet locations that discuss gear oil that
someone may know of. Maybe many of us should go change our gear oil,
myself included. Any further help out there?
------------------------------------------------------------
>
>From: [email protected] (Stuart Hastings)
>Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:16:05 -0700
>Subject: Fiat gear oil
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> what do you mean by Gl-1 and Gl-5? Are they designations within a
brand?
>> What eight are they.
>> I believe the shop manual says to use non-EP gear oil, 80 weight or
so, I
>> don't remember exactly. Please explain why 80/90W gear oil will not
>> work.
>>
>> Csaba Vandor
>
>When I rebuilt a 128 transaxle years ago, I looked everywhere for the
>oil specified in Fiat's shop manual: "90W, no EP." I finally connected
>with a local oil wholesaler (Coast Oil, San Jose, California, USA,
>408/251-0810) where a manager explained "EP." Supposedly, "EP" stands
>for "Extreme Pressure," as one finds between the teeth of a worm-gear
>drive. This is standard in non-transaxle differentials, where the
>pinion/input gear is turning 90 degrees away from the ring/output
>gear. The EP additve is something nasty like "lead sulphate," and it
>actually *promotes* wear; apparently it is normal for worm drives to
>wear metal away quickly, and the EP additive helps "re-weld" bits of
>metal back onto the faces of the gear teeth as they operate.
>
>So, EP is necessary for worm gears, but not for conventional gears.
>As you might imagine, EP is hard on bearings, and I suppose that rear
>axle differential bearings are made tougher to tolerate this.
>
>However, Fiat transaxles and gearboxes have no worm gears, and
>apparently their bearings aren't made to tolerate the EP
>additive. That's too bad, as I've never seen non-EP 80/90W gear oil in
>any U.S. auto parts store. I purchased mine from the aforementioned
>Coast Oil in a five-gallon pail; if you visit there, ask for "mineral
>90." I've put more than 80K miles on my rebuilt transaxle, and all
>the synchros/bearings are still O.K., so it "works for me." To locate
>such a vendor elsewhere in the U.S., look in your Yellow Pages(tm),
>under "Oils, Lubricating."
>
>To answer Mr. Vandor's questions directly, EP gear oil *will work*,
>but your gearbox bearings will probably wear out faster than you
>like. Sorry, I don't know what the GL-X designations mean.
>
>When I was rebuilding my transaxle, one of my Fiat parts sources
>advised me to use a 20W-50 engine oil in the transaxle. This is a
>pretty plausible substitute; the viscosity is probably close (engine
>oil viscosity is measured at very high engine operating temperatures),
>and engine oil doesn't have EP. I belive that many British and
>Japanese imports specify engine oil for their gearboxes.
>
>stuart hastings
>'72 128, '80 Brava, '86 505
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (Karl Doll )
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:40:48 -0700
Subject: Fiat belts and gear oil: Do in June
>From: [email protected]
>Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:05:31 -0600 (CST)
>Subject: RE:Fiat gear oil ???
>
>Bruce,
>
>what do you mean by Gl-1 and Gl-5? Are they designations within a
brand?
>What eight are they.
>I believe the shop manual says to use non-EP gear oil, 80 weight or
so, I
>don't remember exactly. Please explain why 80/90W gear oil will not
>work.
>
>Csaba Vandor
>
- -----------------------------------
>Re: trany oils - the GL-1 and GL-5 relate to the pressure capacity of
the
>oils brought about by additives. As GL-5 is good for hypoid gears and
>posi-traction type gears etc. it plays havoc with the synchros of the
Fiat
>gear boxes. GL-1 is basically a straight mineral oil with short
(compared
>to GL-5) use life, say 30k miles life. A local repair shop
specializing in
>Italian cars says use GL-5, but I wonder how much work they get later
as the
>synchros go. Given the Alfas and Fiats are "old" you might get the
.."well
>it's old and got miles on it" line. Any other comments would be
appreciated.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
From: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:56:10 -0400
Subject: Fiat gearbox oil
With all the debate lately about what is the "correct" gearbox oil for Fiats,
we though everyone would be interested in the fact that we discovered and
solved this problem over a decade ago! Below is the text from a flyer that we
include with all our Fiat Spider parts catalogs and was also a page in our
old Lancia catalog (now out of print). Please let us apologize in advance for
the overt commercialism... but it's true function in life is as a sales
flyer. We thought the information contained within would be of benefit. Yes,
we are a Redline distributor and their products are available from us.
*****************
Virtually every Fiat and Lancia we see is long overdue for a change of
transmission oil (the factory recommends a change every 18,000 miles and we
recommend a change immediately after you purchase a used car - no telling how
long it_s been in there). PLUS: A majority of those cars are using the wrong
type of lubricant! That_s right, almost every single owner we talk to has
been using conventional hypoid gear oil in the transmission.
Our transmissions contain no hypoid gears and regular hypoid gear oil (also
labeled EP for "extreme pressure") is actually bad for our transmissions! A
quote from the Fiat Spider Factory Shop Manual says "do not use EP (hypoid)
oil". Hypoid oils, with their additives, leave a film on the synchronizers
and actually lubricates these parts too well, preventing them from
functioning correctly! This typically shows up as minor grinding of gears and
difficulty in shifting, both problems especially evident going into second
gear and in the first few miles of driving with a cold car. Prolonged use
with these problems can lead to big dollar ($$$) repairs later on. Have you
ever priced how much it costs to remove a transmission, much less open it up
and do repairs?
But, have you ever tried to find the "correct" non-hypoid gear oil in any
auto parts store? It just isn_t there! We also looked without success until
we found Red Line Synthetic Lubricants. That_s right, Red Line_s MTL (Manual
Transmission Lubricant) is specifically designed for use in manual
transmissions and transaxles. MTL provides excellent protection of gears and
synchronizers and allows easier and smoother shifting. It_s all that is used
in our own Fiats and Lancias; plus it_s the only lubricant used under the
grueling conditions of the race track in both of our race-winning FIAT
X1/9_s! MTL is perfect for all front engined Fiats and Lancias along with the
mid-engine Scorpion and Fiat X1/9. We_ve seen it cure balky shifting problems
that had gone on for years! Do your Fiat or Lancia a big favor and pay
attention to the service intervals, change the trans oil and use the right
oil... that's Red Line MTL.
Capacities:
Fiat 124/2000 5-speed, 1.75 qts.
Fiat 124 4-speed, 1.45 qts.
Fiat 131/Brava 5-speed, 1.75 qts
Fiat X1/9 4-speed, 1.7 qts.
Fiat X1/9 5-speed, 3.2 qts.
1975-1982 Lancia 5-speed, 2.6 qts.
Maserati Biturbo 5-speed, 1.5 qts.
For anyone interested in more details, the complete sales flyer itself and a
technical brochure on MTL are available from us by sending an SASE (.32) to:
Caribou Imports, Inc.
23151-A3 Alclade Drive
Laguna Hills, CA
92653-1419
------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (Stuart Hastings)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:13:21 -0700
Subject: Fiat gearbox oil
caribou> oil". Hypoid oils, with their additives, leave a film on the synchronizers
caribou> and actually lubricates these parts too well, preventing them from
caribou> functioning correctly! This typically shows up as minor grinding of gears and
caribou> difficulty in shifting, both problems especially evident going into second
caribou> gear and in the first few miles of driving with a cold car.
"lubricates ... too well" ?
With no qualifications sufficient to dispute you, I can offer only skepticism
about your theory of oil misapplication. However, we agree that EP is bad
for FIAT gearboxes.
karld> discount parts place. The front label says nothing about "EP", but the
karld> text on the back says "...is a high performance, extreme pressure-type
karld> gear lubricant.."
Sounds like an EP oil to me. I suggest you replace it with something
non-EP. As I ranted before, "it works," but your gearbox will probably
wear out faster than if you used a non-EP oil.
chavdar> I was advised by Castrol that this oil is similar to any standard engine oil,
chavdar> so I was told to put in my 132 gearbox 15W40 Selenia Oil - same goes in the
chavdar> engine sump. Sine then I have covered 20K miles and the box is as smooth as
chavdar> ever.
I think this is the correct answer for most FIAT owners. (Perhaps it is time
to consider changing your gearbox oil?)
(I couldn't tell who contributed this item:)
??> gear boxes. GL-1 is basically a straight mineral oil with short (compared
??> to GL-5) use life, say 30k miles life. A local repair shop specializing in
Reaching into a dim corner of my mind, I recall a delightfully dry
comment from my venerable Haynes FIAT 128 manual (paraphrased from
memory):
"Makers of oils will assure you their lubricants will last the life of
the transmission. This may be true, but that life can be longer if you
change the oil."
My point is that it's foolish to leave the oil in your gearbox more
than 30K miles, regardless of its quality. Gears and synchro rings
wear out, no matter how they are lubricated, and the grit that wears
off promotes more wear (in bearings). I humbly suggest 'tis better to
use GL-1 and replace it often than to use the best lubricant available
and leave it in too long.
I just phoned Coast Oil (408/251-0810, San Jose, CA, USA), and
inquired about some prices. They charge $30.70 for five gallons of
"mineral 90" (and $30.95 for "Coast GL-5"). I asked if the "mineral
90" was GL-1, and they couldn't say; let us suppose this is the case.
This works out to 5..10 oil changes, given the capacities posted by
Caribou. My point is: This stuff is cheap!
Coast Oil supplies "mineral 90" in five-gallon plastic buckets,
suitable for storage in the rain, and stenciled on the side in ALL
CAPS, for that authentic "military supply depot look" :-). No
marketing hype whatsoever. To locate something similar elsewhere in
the U.S., I suggest you look in your Yellow Pages(tm) under "Oils -
Lubricating," and shop by phone.
I'm sure that genuine Redline oil is probably technically superior to
the GL-1 I seem to be using, and as such, Redline probably charges a
superior price. However, my ancient gearbox seems to work well, and
I'm skeptical that I would be any better off had I used Redline.
Our '76 128 3p had 52K miles when we bought it; the 2nd gear synchro
was already shot. We drove it this way to 114K miles, when the
layshaft inner bearing failed. I assembled and installed another
transaxle, and drove it another 70K+ miles (My wife was putting 500
miles/week on the car, mostly at 75-80 MPH. Distributor points wore
out often :-). Then, somebody else clobbered the car; the front-end
crumpled, absorbing a 35 MPH impact, and preserving my then-pregnant
wife. Two years ago, I moved the engine/transaxle into my then-dead
'72 128 4-door, where it runs fine today. First gear occasionally
balks, probably due to a worn reverse idler gear, but all the other
synchros are O.K. (including second gear, even when cold). The oil I
drain out has the same color as fresh oil, and the magnetic drain plug
collects very little metal.
I had to replace the engine oil pan after the wreck, and the crankcase
had no sludge whatsoever, probably due to 3000 mile oil changes. The
engine has had several valve jobs, a carb rebuild or two, and a few
water pumps, but the bearings/rings/etc are all original. The oil
light doesn't go out immediately after the first start in the morning,
so it's feeling its age, but it should run awhile yet. The
paint/interior are shot, but the car starts readily, easily passes its
California "smog test," is capable of exceeding 80 MPH, and is still
"fun to drive." During a heat wave last summer, I drove it to San
Fransisco in 100+ degree (Farenheit) heat, doing 65+ MPH, and passing
many overheated cars along the way.
I hope everyone gets similar service from their FIATs. In any case,
I'm satisfied.
My advice for my fellow FIAT gearbox owners is:
1. Avoid EP oil (read the fine print to be sure).
2. Use GL-1, or heavy engine oil, or RedLine.
3. Change the oil often.
I expect that 80-90W EP is fine for FIAT rear-wheel-drive
differentials.
stuart hastings
[email protected] '72 128, '80 Brava, '86 505
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Duncan Simpson <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:06:28 +1200
Subject: Fiat gearbox oil
Hi all,
I posted the original article that sparked thing whole debate off. Well I've
managed to find a solution to my 124 Sport Coupe's gearbox oil supply
situation:
Castrol TQE 5029 - Specified for FIAT 124 71-73 manual transmissions.
It is a GL-3, mineral based oil, with an S.A.E. 90 weight rating, for use
specifically where non extreme pressure (EP) oils are not to be used.
If anyone wants the actual text from the books, let me know.
BTW while I was talking to the guy - who is not a Castrol rep, he
recommended Castrol GTX-3 for use in my 1608cc twin cam. Any
experiences with this oil?
Cheers
Duncan Simpson
------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (BRUCE MATTHEWS)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 19:23:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Gl-1, not GL-3!
OT¥From: Duncan Simpson <[email protected]>
¥Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:06:28 +1200
¥Subject: Fiat gearbox oil
OT¥Hi all,
OT¥I posted the original article that sparked thing whole debate off. Well
I'v
¥managed to find a solution to my 124 Sport Coupe's gearbox oil supply
¥situation:
OT¥Castrol TQE 5029 - Specified for FIAT 124 71-73 manual transmissions.
¥It is a GL-3, mineral based oil, with an S.A.E. 90 weight rating, for use
¥specifically where non extreme pressure (EP) oils are not to be used.
OT¥If anyone wants the actual text from the books, let me know.
OT¥BTW while I was talking to the guy - who is not a Castrol rep, he
¥recommended Castrol GTX-3 for use in my 1608cc twin cam. Any
¥experiences with this oil?
Duncan:
I do not understand how you can say you found a solution with GL-3
when Fiat calls for GL-1! GL-3 is not GL-1.
I found a sourse for Kendall Mineral Gear Oil SAE 80W-90, API
Service GL-1. It is a anti rust, anti oxidation oil. Seems just what
Fiat recommended.
(***********************************************************)
(* E-Mail: [email protected] *)
(* Home Page: http://www.compudata.com/~bmatth *)
(* Home Page contains pictures of my 80 Fiat Spider *)
(* and list of parts/cars I have for sale. *)
(* Check out the new "BS" section! *)
(***********************************************************)
* 1st 2.00 #550 * Going 1st class with 1stReader
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] (Einar Sjaavik)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 13:56:23 CET
Subject: Synchros and oil
>I had always assumed that excessive wear in a manual gearbox is
>usually caused by grit (from normal wear-and-tear) floating about in
>un-changed oil. Is EP worse than grit?
EP can _cause_ grit. Read on.
>Please explain how a low-friction "slippery film" causes "the length
>of time of synchro to mating surface contact," certainly a
>high-friction condition, to increase "dramatically."
- -The synchromesh is a _clutch_. A cone clutch to be more specific.
- -As you move from neutral into a gear, it engages, and bring the two
meshing parts of the gear up to same speed. If this is not done
properly, the teeth will clash into each oters (grind or crunch).
Small pieces will be chipped off the corners of the teeth ( = grit ).
- -Like any clutch, it will slip if gets lubricated (by oil in this case).
- -It is designed with that in mind. It is designed to squeeze away the oil
from the mating surface, _but_ that can only be done properly
assuming the correct properties of the oil. Put in oil with very different
attributes, and this clutch may slip too much. A synchro can work well in
EP oil _IF_ it is designed to cope with that in the first place.
- - Use "too slippery oil", and the teeth will grind / crunch with grit as
a byproduct. Examine the grit on your magnetic drain plug, and you will
probably find pieces large enough to convince you they are not normal
wear products, but small pieces of gear chipped off. Don't be scared
by it though. Like your own teeth, the gearbox teeth can function well
even with some chipped teeth. (Chunks is another matter though.)
- - You can usually compensate for the extra slipping of the synchromesh
by giving it more time to engage. ("length of time.."). Just as your
car will come up to speed with a sligthly slipping clutch. It will
just take some time.
>
>Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions,
You're welcome. I had that as an occupation for 10 years some time back,
so why not 10 minutes more. :-)
- --
[email protected] ( Maserati Biturbo Spyder )
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Katajainen Tero <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:28:38 +0300 (EET DST)
Subject: Synchros & oil & inertia, etc.
Some talk of gear lubes seems to be going on, I'll add my .02 . I just
overhauled the clutch master & slave cylinders on my Alfetta GTV and
while I was at it I popped the gearbox open. I added a little metal
(Brass) to the selector forks and gear selector finger to get a tighter
change and also changed into Mobil ATF oil.
I think that 50% of the improved change is due to clutch repair, rest
for the ATF. Anyway, no grinds when changing up from 7000+. Some
observations:
1. It takes forever to spool down the box with ATF. Reverse always grinds.
2. It needs more force to get out of gear.
3. It's a lot faster to shift.
4. A bit more noise.
5. With Valvoline EP oil the sync rings had glazed.
I don't know what the effect on gear wear will be, but I've got spare parts
for everything, so I'm not worried.
I took a good look on first two gears, and noticed that Alfa has already
lightened them in the factory. Further reductions in inertia will be hard.
Today my clutch failed to disengage, I believe the throwout bearing has
gone through the pressure plate fingers. The clutch went down once and
after that pressing it will stall the engine. I'll take a looksee as
soon as I get to the carage. I believe the failure was due to no lubrication
on the bearing shaft which caused the bearing to tilt and bit into the
plate fingers and grind itself towards the clutch plate. We'll see ...
-T.Katajainen, [email protected]
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Tuner's page at http://proffa.cc.tut.fi/~k124775/
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Duncan Simpson <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 18:03:13 +1200
Subject: Re: Gl-1, not GL-3! -Reply
>From: [email protected] (BRUCE MATTHEWS)
>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 19:23:00 -0400
>Subject: Re: Gl-1, not GL-3!
> I do not understand how you can say you found a solution with
>GL-3 when Fiat calls for GL-1! GL-3 is not GL-1.
> I found a sourse for Kendall Mineral Gear Oil SAE 80W-90, API
>Service GL-1. It is a anti rust, anti oxidation oil. Seems just what
>Fiat recommended.
My understanding is that the spec is for a 90W non EP oil. GL-1 rated
90W oils met that spec at the time. The oil I have ordered is a GL-3
mineral oil, not a GL-1 oil, however it was formulated for conditions that
require a 90W non EP oil. I'm under the impression that it is the 'non-EP'
part of the spec is the important part. The syncros in these g-boxes
require that the oil is 'non-EP'. Also, from what I've read here in ICD, the
'EP' oils contribute to failure of the bearings (and/or seals?) used in these
boxes. The oil that I have ordered meets my interpretation of the Fiat
spec for the older g-boxes, however, as always, I won't know until I try
it and then only time will tell.
The oil turned up today, so maybe I'll have some stories to tell sometime
sooner or later...
Cheers all,
Duncan Simpson
------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 96 08:59:58 PST
Subject: EP oil
Thought an expanded description would help clarify some
mystery in The Great Oil Debate.
Extreme pressure (EP) oils contain "active" additives.
These cause a chemical reaction between the additive and the
gear tooth surface to produce a physical film in the contact
zone. Its function is not so much to separate the sliding
bodies (as do polymer additives) but to prevent the gross
damage from welding that occurs between their surfaces when
the pressure is extreme. It's not surprising that these
additives can attack some gearbox materials if not designed
for EP oils. I've also heard that the EPA isn't happy with
such caustics in circulation.
EP oils are frequently referred to as "hypoid" gear oils.
That's because hypoid gears need them. Most rear wheel
drive differentials have a hypoid ring gear. These gears
have perpendicular rotational axes and the mesh occurs as a
sliding line contact - lots of wear potential.
Note that front wheel drive differentials don't
have hypoid gears. Transmission gears are typically
helical.
These have parallel axes and relatively little sliding
contact. EP oils are not necessary and are apparently
harmful to their materials and operation.
Now someone will ask me about the requirements for limited
slip clutches in hypoid differentials: don't got 'em on
airplanes!
ciao,
Robert
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jim Steck <[email protected]>
Date: 12 Mar 96 09:10:41 EST
Subject: gear oil
In AD 99, Octavian Popa writes:
>My question has to do with the gear oil that I should use. In the Owner's
>manual, Alfa specifies API GL-5, SAE 80W-90 oil. No problem here,
>except that in the synthetic variety, I am able to find only SAE 75W-90
>grade. Castrol and Valvoline make a similar product that is in this grade,
>but I couldn't find a synthetic in the 80W-90 grade. How come? Would
>it be safe to use the synthetic in place of the conventional gear oil, even
>though it has a lower, and supposedly less viscous formula?
>A second question: is the synthetic "better" than the conventional oils?
The viscosity is not the critical number in the rating of gear oils . . . the
shear strength of the film is (GL-5 . . . GL-6 etc.). I use Red Line Synthetic
(75W-90) in my GTV because it has meets GL-6 specifications. I have not tried
other synthetics, but compared to conventional oils, the Red LIne has extended
the life of the pinion bearings in the rear axle. In my case, the problem is
high temperature breaking down the oil. Synthetics have a real advantage there.
I also highly recommend using Red Line MTL (manual transmission lubricant) in
any Alfa with a separate transmission (750 thru 115 series). The viscosity is
less than the gear oil and REALLY improves shifting. I can't beat the second
gear synchro (I don't normally shift that way). BTW, this transmission has
60,000 miles on it behind my turbocharged 2.0 liter.
A good source in the US is Orion Engineering - (402) 331-5913.
- -Jim Steck
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From: Jim Steck <[email protected]>
Date: 22 Mar 96 22:10:44 EST
Subject: Subject: Trans/Diff Lube
>I want to change out the gear lube in my '74 GTV's transmission and
>differential. The trans has a worn 2nd gear synchro.
>People seem to mention Redline 90W as the preferred lube, but do I have to do
>anything special for the limited slip rear?
Use RedLine MTL (manual transmission lube) for the transmission . . . for a
dramatic difference in synchro action. Use the RedLine 75W90 for the
differential . . . it's made for hypoid gears and is formulated for LSD's.
- -Jim Steck
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From: Jim Steck <[email protected]>
Date: 25 Mar 96 23:07:22 EST
Subject: gear lube
>Thanks for the advice on trans oil....unfortunately, I already put redline
>75W-90 in my trans this weekend.... only to read today that Jim Steck
>recommends using redline MTL in the trans..... hmmm. What is the
>difference between these two lubes? I checked out Amsoil, and they
>don't seem to make any "manual transmission fluid". I will say, however,
>that I haven't experienced any improvement in shifting since putting in
>the redline. Did I use the wrong stuff?
Bob,
You're missing the biggest advantage that the MTL gives you . . . improved
shifting. I works on all the four and five-speed transmissions (NOT TRANSAXLES)
whether they have early or late synchros. Only the hypoid gears in the
differential need the 75W90 GL-5.
Richard W. is correct that Alfa officially recommends a GL-5 lube in the
transmissions, and the MTL is rated GL-4. The MTL is a unique product
specifically designed for transmissions . . . it is not a general purpose oil.
When the synchros in the Alfa gearbox were redesigned, the gears and bearings
did not change . . . and the GL-4 lubes satisfy all their requirements.
It's been more than 60K miles since I rebuilt the transmission in my GTV
(turbo). It does not show any signs of wear, and still shifts like I just put
it together.
- -Jim Steck
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****
Thanks for the advice on trans oil....unfortunately, I already put redline
75W-90 in my trans this weekend.... only to read today that Jim Steck
recommends using redline MTF in the trans..... hmmm. What is the difference
between these two lubes? I checked out Amsoil, and they don't seem to make
any "manual transmission fluid". I will say, however, that I haven't
experienced any improvement in shifting since putting in the redline ...
*****
The MTL is designed around enhanced shifting with synchro's. the synchro's
NEED resistance in the oil to match speeds. the resistance speeds or slows
the gears accordingly.
Ray Sinclair
http://www.prostar.com/web/rsinc/
From: TimCunningham <[email protected]>
Date: 19 Apr 96 11:34:14 EDT
Subject: GTV synchro change
Bob,
You do need a press to change out the synchros, the other thing you need is a
good pair of snap ring pliers. You could get a machine shop to press the thing
apart for you, and then change the synchros yourself. As to how many synchros
you have to buy, you can probably get away with buying one or two (see the
discussion in Centerline catalog about how to switch the synchros around, sort
of like rotating tires) but since you're in there, you may want to replace them
all. Check the toothed shift rings, the ones the shift forks move directly,
for excessive wear on the teeth. They are replaceable and not too expensive if
memory serves.
Tim
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