Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 534

This topic is just my opinion, so here goes:

There seems to be a lot of confusion and opinions on strains and why some cost more and so on. The typical question is,
"Which NL#5 is the original?"
Then a ton of opinions come in on who bred it first. Or,
"Why are some seeds so expensive? Anyone can make seeds..."

I think it is a crime and wrong for someone (like Nirvana) to cross a Skunk#1 with an Afghani and call it "Super Skunk". After all, Super Skunk is a strain produced and sold by Sensi Seeds. After all, Dutch Passion has a cross of Skunk#1 and Afghani of their own, they call their's "Mazar". Dutch Passion also has a NL5xHaze cross and they call it "Hempstar"-so it is not confused with Sensi's Original cross. So how come Nirvana and others make a cross of White Widow and Super Skunk and call it Great White Shark. The same exact name as the one given by the original breeder.

I Think this is ok when F2s are produced. For example, if someone crosses to Ak-47 plants they should simply call them ak-47 f2s. Say exactly what they are...

Without going into it too much, I read a posting by Shantibaba (former breeder at The Greenhouse and currently at Mr. Nice) where he stated it took a year and a half to produce and stabilize a strain indoors. And around 2.5 years or longer outdoors. This involved parent selection, backcrossing, and etc...So the original breeder has performed a fair share of work. I think that can be agreed upon by all. Taking the work of others is not neccessarily wrong, because they all do it. But to call it the SAME EXACT NAME is not ok in my book. They should rename these strains, but INCLUDE THE HERITAGE.

It would be like this-Let's say a new car company produces a new sports car. Then they end up naming it a "Boxter". Would Porsche have a right to object to the naming? We all know there would be instant litigation. By the way, a Honda Passport is produced by Isuzu. But Honda calls it a Honda...wouldn't it be stupid to call it an Isuzu when it comes in Honda packaging? I think we can all agree that it would.

I always get a little laugh when I read the description by Nirvana of their White Rhino , "Our version of a decidedly good Widow cross". Why not call it something else and simply state that it is an Afghani x Widow cross. It's all about the money people...and I think it is a little crooked. LET ME STATE AGAIN. I DON'T THINK IT IS NECCESSARILY WRONG TO INCLUDE THE GENETICS PRODUCED BY OTHERS IN CROSSES, BUT TO NAME THEM THE EXACT SAME NAME IS.

It really makes me laugh when others make a "knock off" and then sell it close to, or higher than the original-example, Grimm's White Shark...I hope there isn't anyone out there that spent the $100 plus dollars on it when the original kick ass strain is substantially cheaper. Or when someone asks, " Should I get Sensi Star from White Label?" Why on Earth would someone even consider that? Remember, the original breeders have the original and best parental stock. There should be no argument about that fact.

I went through this whole thread and didn't say anything about quality. Big money doesn't mean the best seeds. But you get a great bang for your buck from company's like Paradise Seeds. You can get good plants from companies' like Willy Jack or Nirvana. But if you try to tell me that they would be as "good" as the same products from Mr. Nice, Sensi, or Serious Seeds...I will tell you that you are crazy.

Any opinions...remember these are my opinions only and I might be entirely correct. But if you are going to reply to this thread, please respect my opinions and the opinions of others that may reply.

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 462

I guess it gets kinda confusing if everybody where to have a different name for the same product or near the same. white rihno now medicine man, or peace maker now great white shark.
I feel the original breeders have the best genetics as they try to stabalize their strains before release, and then everybody rushes to release a copy cat, or f2 knock off.
I guess I'm ok with same strain names, just be clear about and honest about genetics and breeding, growth patterns and all.
As for the intial question who owns the rights to the originals it's clearly mother nature. She created the original afgani, columbian, mexican and so on. All we're doing is tweeking original line for our pleasure. Mother nature can't sue over copyright infrigments.

my rambling .02
your opinion is appreciated and well thought out

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 1454

i don't agree with you exactly. i don't know nothing about breeding and all those breeders, but if 2 stores sell honda cars,they both call it honda. why should different sellers call the SAME strain a different name? it's exaclty the same strain. if people buy it in a more expensive place it's their fault. i'm sure different stores sell the same cars in different prices too.

Registered: Mar 2000
Posts: 3427

"Remember, the original breeders have the original and best parental stock. There should be no argument about that fact."

--Well, I can't agree with that one. By that logic, the original landraces would be the "original and best parental stock", but anyone who's tried growing them indoors will tell you that's not true. Also, wouldn't that have to mean that if I was the first one to bring a "new" strain to market, it would automatically be the best expression of my genepool?

And, "best" is a relative term and is totally dependent on a slew of environmental factors such as light density, temperature, humidity, nutrient regimen, CO2 levels, plus perhaps most importantly the neurochemistry of the breeder, ie. their personal response to different cannabinoid profiles. If I take a strain that does well in a high-light, CO2-enhanced hydro system and selectively breed it to perform well in a low-light, organic, fresh-air environment, wouldn't I be making it "better" for a large number of growers?

Just throwing some ideas out there, I think it's a great topic so it'll stay at the top of the forum for a spell...

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 534

Shipperke-I didn't mean to be so absolute when saying the best. So you are correct. But someone who grows hundreds of seeds trying to find ideal parents is going to have better odds than someone that buys a pack of 10 beans and chooses both parents from that stock.

Mjquestions- They are not the same exact strains. The only person carrying the same exact strains are the Greenhouse and Mr. Nice:
White Widow=Black Widow
White Rhino=Med Man
etc...

Your opinion is like saying that Super Silver Haze and Jack Herer are the same strain. THEY CLEARLY ARE NOT. Although they contain the same types of strains in them, they are combined differently. Plus, who says which strain or combination was used when the mother and father plants were generated.
Is a male NL crossed with a female skunk going to give the you same exact result as a female NL crossed with a male skunk? Especially if they were obtained from different sources? The plants are going to combine there genes differently and produce plants with different highs, growth patterns, and yields. In a perfect world these differences might be small, but none the less-different.

And you may be confused...they are not different sellers (like car dealerships), they are different breeders (like car manufacturers).

Registered: Mar 2000
Posts: 3427

I agree that the breeder who selects from the largest population is most likely to have the best product... perhaps breeders should include that information as well? I think that would be really nice, just include the population size in parentheses after the parent name... for example if you saw Sensi's NL5(1500) x Haze (1000) and Nirvana's NL5 (20) x Haze (10), which would you pick? How much value would you place on Sensi's larger populations? This will never happen, and if it did there would be no way to enforce truth in advertising, but ya gotta dream...

Registered: Not Yet
Posts: N/A

i think the seed business is WAY over priced and is VERY greedy no matter what you wanna call the fucking beans...

paying more that 50 bucks for 10 beans of ANYTHING is a waste... my .02

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1758

Yeah honesty is hard to find these days.............

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 127

yup.

Last edited by st187 on November 13th, 2002 at 10:33 PM

Registered: Not Yet
Posts: N/A

im not saying their communists... wtf is 300 bucks for 10 beans??? its sick... i buy from smaller breeders with more decent prices and i dont care what teh name is seedsdirect is very fair (fairest ive seen) for seed prices and they even toss in a freebie... cant go wrong rock on Gypsy.

st187: your an idiot and didnt understand shit that i wrote.

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 127

yah i'm sorry now that i'm really blazed... and redited this post 4 times... i understand whats going on and it makes sense, but what can you really do?

Last edited by st187 on November 13th, 2002 at 10:32 PM

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 534

You mention $300 for seeds. I am assuming that you are looking at Emery. I think it would be very foolish to buy any Dutch strains from him. I wouldn't do business with anyone that felt comfortable selling anything at those prices. I don't care how much his Canadian strains are. He is crooked and greedy in my opinion. Someone like Emery is just a distributor, just like seedsdirect. Obviously a distributor can sell at what prices they seem neccessary. Do you think the breeders are crooked on their prices as a whole? Their must be some wholesale prices out their that places like seedsdirect get the beans at before they turn around and sell them to us. Do you think someone like Paradise would be wrong to sell their beans more than someone like Willy Jack or Nirvana?

Shipperke-I think you have a good idea that more information about the lineage would be helpful to the buyer when purchasing seeds. It would especially help newbies who are often confused between things like which Ak-47 is the original...

Last edited by tdmaker on November 13th, 2002 at 10:54 PM

Registered: Not Yet
Posts: N/A

st187: its cool dude not saying i can do much im just ranting like the guy who started the thread but i buy cheaper f2's or wait for deals on seedbay (thats my personal choice)

tdmaker: emery isnt the only con man on the internet with high prices what makes these seeds from original breeders so damn expensive?? honestly... cany one can cross pollenate a plant its what it does... i just dont see any justification in the price, besides it being a way for a shitload of potheads to make a living doing what they love (everyone has a nitch & a gimmick) my response is not to buy those expensive seeds, stick with F2's or the seedbay gig...

breeders arent crooked, but they are greedy. only people who get wholesale prices are knows figures in the community.

Registered: Not Yet
Posts: N/A

cany = cant*

knows = known*

sorry for the messups... kinda ripped.../

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 534

Corky-You're right, Emery isn't the only one ripping people off. But he has the highest prices ANYWHERE. And I would be willing to bet that Seedsdirect or Heaven's Stairway gets the seeds approximately half the prices the sell them for. And that is completely fair-after all people are in business to make money. That markup is pretty normal in the retail world...

And you are also correct that anyone can cross two plants...Do you believe that the Droenkers at Sensi, Luc at Paradise, and Shanti at Mr. Nice are simply crossing random plants. Please read my first post, where Shanti stated it takes at least a year and a half (indoors) to stabilize and make a breed available for the public. I doubt that many people on C-Bay or Willy Jack are doing that kind of work.

Do you believe in the work that code writers must do when writing software? Or do you use Linux?