Registered: Mar 2001
Posts: 10643
Overgrow ADMIN

I have been reading lots of posts here and in the tank
Regarding breeding in particular threads with Baudelaire, Chimera , vic, arf and straw dog etc ( liked the "Evolution of cannabis" and I was saddened to here about your recent troubles sd)

I think I’ve got the basics about IBL, F1, F2 or "unstabilized hybrid" (Chimera I prefer that term as well)

Is there a list available for the IBL's and a description as i think i could get a better understanding if I knew where we were starting from. It would take forever to go through the strain base even then it's sometimes a little lacking on information
or descriptions I’m only interested in a IBL list not the subsequent offspring.

It would be of great help to me and give me a better understanding of some of the discussions/disagreements in these threads. Keep up the great work you do here
and keep the discussions going in this forum

thanks in advance

oldpink

Registered: Apr 2001
Posts: 1787
Overgrow Subscriber

Last edited by arf on June 6th, 2002 at 05:28 AM

Registered: Mar 2001
Posts: 10643
Overgrow ADMIN

Bump

arf
thank you for your reply
every one talk's about them but does anyone have a definitive list or even a rough guide
I think such a list would be a big help to the community
in particular the hobby breeders even just to identify particular traits and there origins.

anyone ales care to comment on this

thanks again

OP

Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 1314
Overgrow Moderator

Thanks for the heads up on this thread oldpink- I didn't see it...

When discussing IBL's, we should remember what the term means. IBL stands for In Bred Line. So really any seedline that has been inbred, could qualify.

I think most of us use the term to mean truebreeding- but when we discuss truebreeding it should be realized that these strains will only breed true for the traits that the breeder concentrated on, and will not breed true for each and every trait.

For example- In "Advances in Hemp Research'- the author refers to Skunk #1 as a 'relatively' true breeding variety. This point was made clear by strawdog's recent grow of Sensi seed's Afghan1 and Skunk #1- these two 'classics' were both found to show some variation in the seedline for various characteristics.

That having been said, here is brief list of some IBL's:

Skunk #1
California Orange
Afghani #1
Hindu Kush
South African Durban Posion (Durban)
Early girl
Northern Lights
Big Bud
Blueberry
Mighty Mite

There are probably many others, I just can't think of them off the top of my head- please feel free to add to the list.

Some would consider cubed lines as IBL's, they consider the act of crossing a male offspring to a it's mother clone as inbreeding, and in a sense it is.

If we were to include these as well we could mention Breeder Steve's Sweet Tooth #3, Brothers Grimm C99, Romulan from Federation (back crossed 7 times apparently) and many others.
For the most part, these strains won't breed true however- if the clone is heterozygous for a particular trait, no matter how many times you back cross to the clone it will continue to segregate in an unpredictable manner- donating either of the different alleles.

This cubing practice is a myth in the cannabis industry- it does NOT produce a truebreeding line- it only produces a larger population with very close genetic heritage, from which parents can be chosen to produce an IBL, or truebreeding line.
The point of having an IBL or truebreeding variety is that these lines are homozygous for certain traits, and because of they are homozygous (and thus truebreeding) they will ALWAYS contribute the desired allele- allowing a predictable outcome of that trait in the offspring.
Hope this clears things up a bit...
-Chimera

[Edited by Chimera on 07-15-2001 at 03:50 PM]

Registered: Mar 2001
Posts: 10643
Overgrow ADMIN

thank you Chimera

this is the sort of information i'm looking for
i'm relatively new to growing and have a lot to learn
and learning the history of the these plants seems like a good place to start.

Vic i would be very intrested in your comment's on this
being in the UK we don't get to see a lot of the north american
or canadian strains most of the weed / seed's in the UK
originates in holland for obvious reasons.
any way i'm rambling on here

anyone else care to add to this list

K++

OP

Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 1314
Overgrow Moderator

Most of the strains on that list originated in North America; there were taken to holland and distributed from there!
Skunk #1,California Orange, Early girl (Polyanna), Northern Lights, Big Bud. Blueberry, Mighty Mite and all of DJ's other blues, and flo were all done in North America.
So in fact the dutch haven't done that much to create new true breeding lines. It will be interesting to see who does the next genration of truebreeding works- I know Steve is giving his shot at it over in Switzerland...
-Chimera

Registered: Jul 1999
Posts: 237

Don't forget Early Pearl.

To my mind, a highly overlooked gem of a strain. True-breeding, early maturing nearly pure sativa...Why this isn't being used by every breeder trying to knock down the flower times on those tropical sativas, I can't fathom. Do you have any experience with the strain?

-b420

Last edited by Baudelaire on March 6th, 2003 at 12:56 AM

Registered: Not Yet
Posts: N/A

GREAT THREAD GUYS!!!!

very good info, guys. well phrased, well answered, just the type of info that needs to be posted. great for the hobby breeders. also, i'm happy to see i have 6 of the strains in my library. one note, apparently if you read the seed vendors description carefully you can arrive at which strains to choose and which not to. you have to look for certain wordings, and add in the info you get from reading certain posts from reliable sources. at least that's how i think i've done it. the names of the people in this post are a good start. you can learn more by looking at how people post and present info and argumentation, and draw you're own conclusions. much karma to all except i use an annonymous service and i can't dish it out. soon, these boards will start to clog up again as people return indoors from the summer. hopefully, this thread develops. john.

Registered: Not Yet
Posts: N/A

According to Sensi's catalogue, Early Pearl is mostly sativa and Early girl mostly indica. I'm assuming that both of you are talking about Early Pearl?

Registered: Aug 2000
Posts: 3557

It looks highly doubtful that any strains are 100% homozygous for all their traits. However we do have a few, as mentioned above, that do have a large % of their traits fixed in a population. That is good news.

The bad news is that some of these traits have not been selected by the breeder. In otherwords some % of traits are caused by a break in the law of equilibrium.

This would be:

Mutation (as seen in the application of constant cuttings or through the use of chemicals)
Gene migration (Hardly a problem unless a breeder makes a big mistake.)
Genetic drift (By chance alone in a small population. Very likely)
Non-random mating (Like the process of cubing or squaring.)
Natural selection (In this case the breeding project is pretty much the natural selection, so this is not a problem if done right, but the gene pool that the plants where originally taken from would have gone through this.)

I think genetic drift and non-random mating are probably responsible for a good selection of the traits in some of these IBL strains being homozygous. And keeping that selected mother through cubing is always going to result in some variations.

It may be a lifetimes works to actually complete a true IBL. An IBL that breeds true for all traits. But then again such a in breed line might just snap back out by mutating within the population. That is a serious fact that has to be considered. The 100% homozygous population for all it's traits just might totally violate the law of genetics. Maybe this is a good reason why there are so many variations in everything.

strawdog

P.S - While smoker a reefer today I got thinking. What if there is a gene for mutation. One that sits there are monitors the rest. Maybe this gene is only homozygous dominant and says to itself. If all my other genes contain no hetrozygous genotypes then I must mutate. I am just guessing at the because for me mutation plays a big conerstone in the theory of evolution.

If you are seriously interested in this kind of research then get the book - THE CANNABIS GROW BIBLE by GREG GREEN which has a huge section on genetics. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931160171/qid=1060478137/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/104-2578905-8900731

Last edited by strawdog on August 17th, 2003 at 08:46 PM

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 323

There are genes that can influence the rates of mutation (called mutators) and have been hypothesised in several recent theoretical population genetics papers to be under the influence of natural selection.

I don't know what gene migration is - please explain.

Also - Chimera I think cubing can help produce a true breeding line as I explained in my other post here:

http://www.overgrow.com/edge/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42822&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Registered: Aug 2000
Posts: 3557

Hi Wanny,

Gene migration is here.

http://www.ultranet.com/~jkimball/BiologyPages/H/Hardy_Weinberg.html


I must read your link later.

Last edited by strawdog on May 19th, 2002 at 02:50 PM

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 323

Oh right - they're just talking about migration of individuals from other populations. Odd to call it gene migration though I think.

Registered: Mar 2000
Posts: 3427

Hi Wanny,

I think Chimera's point is that cubing a superior individual cannot produce a strain that breeds true for a heterozygotic condition-- if your special one is Aa you can pick an Aa male to backcross as many times as you like and you'll still have a 1:2:1 ratio in the offspring.

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 323

Sure - I understand that you can never get a line true breeding for a trait thats caused by a heterozygous condition. If that's what he meant - then my bad, he was right.

(Oh and Shipperke if you were backcrossing - this is almost always done to a homozygote, so you would get a 1:1 AA (aa) to Aa ratio of offspring).