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Registered: Nov 2001
Posts: 2111
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Spice Of Life

Soma

BCGA

Chimera

Mr Nice

Brothers Grimm (discontinued)

Serious Seeds

Sagmartha

HomeGrownFantaseeds

Not in any specific order.....................

Good Breeders are measured by their product and should also be measured on the methods they chose to get there, because their techniques have great impact on the final product.

I'm no breeder so one of these guys above could answer your questions better.

Many of the aforementioned have prime places to breed (where it's legal, optimum conditions & facilities, and large plant populations for ideal parent selection). This makes their job much easier than say your small timers & closet hacks.

Another interesting topic is their breeding techniques, which can be learned about more in depth, by clicking the link above this forum and entering the breeders lab, or by reading robert clarke's marijuana botany.

True Breeders who love the cannabis plant as much or more than they love getting high are often the best. The choose methods for breeding the improve the quality of cannabis as a smoke product and a species. Many breeders choose the "quickest" possible methods to produce a dynamite cross that may down the line have major problems (much more in depth discussions in the breeders lab)

I could gab on this subject for days, and if ya can get Shipperke and Chimera to come in on this one you'll get some good answers.

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Registered: Jul 1999
Posts: 165

Hi all...The saddest thing is about 95% of the breeders only know the the basics of breeding,if that.they are either in it for the money or to feel like they are somebody important,but there are some who truly know alot about breeding,but they are the minority and mostly remain quiet and dont hype themselves,and somtimes they come out to educate us,but they seem to talk to deaf ears,and some people can't come to terms about the truth about the poor breeding practices being used today with our plants.

When looking for a good breeder,find out how educated they are in the field,it can only be an advantage.if they make lots of knockoffs,and heaps of crosses,and they have a huge range i think they was be suspect,and be carfull of the ones who claim stabilization with the technique of backcrossing[cubing],and the ones who think an F1hybrid doesnt come from 2 relativly stable parents that are unrelated to each other.

Find out who the real breeders are and support them with your money,not the shonks.remember it is us who grows the seeds.


peace...

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Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 245

My Favorite breeders, by the way I like American genetics, not b/c they are american, but they aren't the tired worn out Dutch crosses:

BOG: If you don't know, ya better axs sombody.

THSeeds: They get a lot of their genetics from the West Coast and Heavy Duty Fruity and SAGE come recommended from guys who are in the know.

NCGA: More West Coast top genetics, that Blue Widow sounds mmmmmmm good, but no experience w/them.

Chimera: Never actually tried his stuff either, but nothing but glowing reports

Dutch genetics: Paradise, Mr. Nice, and Soma. Soma has a lot of old school American genetics.

I'm not an expert, just a person w/an opinion, but I have been obsessed w/finding the best genetics without having to pay an arm and a leg, Dutch Flowers and Bros Grimm.

stondedjayhawk

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 214

For me, my top 5 are:-

Serious Seeds
Sensi Seeds
Positronics
Homegrown Fantaseeds
Nirvana


From Serious Seeds small selection, most are classics. I grow bubblegum, Ak47 and Kali Mist repeatedly. I've never tried Chronic.

I've never regretted growing any Sensi seeds variety I've purchased. My favourate is Silver Haze, but I've grown Shiva Skunk, Early Girl, Early Pearl, Silver Pearl, California Indica, Skunk and Jack herer.

Positronics Seeds were available a lot when I first started growing. They were very cheap and allowed me to try a lot of new varieties.

Homegrown Fantaseeds took over a lot of the Positronics stock and are best known for their indicas. I've grown a lot of their seed, usually a good germination rate and grow into what you are expecting.

Nirvana because they sell F2 knockoffs very cheaply, good germination rate and well worth the money.

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 92

In my limited experience so far. I would have to say Breeder Steve from SOL. I've only grown 3 strains, Serious's White Russian, SOL's Ad-Mix, and Nirvana's K2.

I grew mostly WR due to the fact that it was supposed to be real potent. I grew 1 SOL and 1 K2. After the harvest and cure, me and my buddies smoked nothing but WR thinkin it was the shit cause it hit so hard.

We discounted the Ad-Mix because the sample we smoked was okay. Well, after we ran out of WR, it was the Ad-Mix's turn. Man, were we surprised. I guess we're not used to the creeper stone, but after we'd finish a fat joint, it hit us. We were just sitting in front of the computer listening to music and just watchin the visualization that comes with Media Player. LOL, man we got so lost and was just giggling our heads off.

I'm now on my 2nd grow on WR, but now I wished it was of the Ad-Mix. If the Ad-Mix is supposed to the be the discount genetics. I can only imagine what the other strains are like.

Soon to test after the 2nd grow is done.

THSeed's SAGE
BOG's Medley

Registered: May 2003
Posts: 37

My prevered Breeders are :

Steve from Spice of Life

Dj Shorts : Delta 9 Collection (From Dutch Passion)

Registered: Not Yet
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Well a number of factors could be considered. But if you just look at the end product, I'd say it's mostly luck of the draw.

There are some individuals however that can very quickly and accurately identify a better female with just a couple of hits.

And some with this gift of discertion, even take the time to hold clones and stabalize something.

Most though don't have the taste buds, or the inclanation or the resources to keep this kind of breeding going.

So if you find something you really like, you better clone it and ir breed it yourself just to make sure you don't lose it.

Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 573

good thread
breeder steve-spice of life
shantibaba-mr nice (stay strong bro)
luc-paradise
simon-serious

in my experience with growing out these breeders genetics
they seem to have the most stability
everytime i grow with these companies i can expect a certain level of quality in the product i will be harvesting
and a consistency with plant growth that i have not experienced with other companies

but i am trying new bud every year so next year it might be different
keep it green with .02
and
peace to everyone
asiatica

Registered: Apr 2001
Posts: 381

Definatly Skunkman, Breeder Steve, Shantibaba, DJ Short

These guys know good smoke, and they grow out large numbers for selection.
I believe thats the most important part, large numbers for selection and like DJ Short says, a discernable palate.
Its a numbers game, genetic roullette. No matter what your knowledge level is you have to have the large populations to choose from.

I think Chimera knows his shit, but havent grown his strains as of yet, and have no clue what he grows out for selection.

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 101

Serious
ThSeeds
Paradise
Mr. Nice
DJ Short


These breeders have been able to create strains that are a joy to grow and smoke. I also think each one has contributed at least one strain that had been very beneficial to the cannabis gene pool.

Red Bandit was right on in what he said about examining a breeder's methods & techniques as well.

The other two breeders that I wuld have put on my list except for the fact I have not personally grown their strains are Spice of Life
and Soma. 95% of what I have heard about thesre breeders is excellent & I think that is about as good as you can get in the cannabis breeding business.

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 754

Breeder Steve, DJ Short, and Shantibaba really know their s**t. Everyone else needs more time. Ingemar should probably be up there also. Everytime I read something from Breeder Steve I am amazed at his knowledge of the plant we all love.

Registered: Sep 1999
Posts: 122

Good successful crops from:

Sensi
Paradise
Serious
Dutch Passion
Sagarmatha

Paradise and Sagarmatha were the healthiest and easiest to grow.

Registered: Not Yet
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My vote: 1. The Flying Dutchmen: They grew out thousands of plants to get the mother and father plants.... and they got the pure and the orginal haze. From what I know they are the only ones who sell these pure strains for breeding. Their Thaitanic is fantastic and so is their Early Durban!

2. Chimera: I dont know so much about his setup, but he cares much more about the PLANT then the others, who just cross. His knowledge about the plants and their traits isnt reached by anyone here.

3. Spice of life: Grow out a pack of any variety from him and you will know, why his seeds are so popular.

4. DJ Short for bringing The fantastic Flo to the community.

All the best
Back

Registered: Mar 2000
Posts: 3427

I think it's useful to look at the question the other way, ie "What are the best breeding techniques?" and then look at who practices them.

1) Using large groups to make selections. Statistics tells us that any sample under 30 will not be representative of a large population. So if your testgrow of 30 F1's shows some winners, that doesn't mean you're ready to make F2's, it means that your F1 has potential and you should plant 100 or 1000 to find the real champions. Repeat as necessary.

2) Test-growing seedlines before selling. If a seedster only has pictures of the mother of their latest Wonderhaze x Skunkberry, what does that tell you? To me, test-growing means harvesting the females, slow-drying, and proper curing before making your selection. How else can you be sure of the smoke quality? For example I recently grew DP's Hawaaian Haze, which didn't smell all that special until it had been in glass for almost a month, at which point this lovely minty flavor emerged. On the other hand I have had plants that smelled like candy at harvest, but those aromas were just too delicate and faded before the plant was even dry.

3) Just to repeat what sharrina put so eloquently, breeders make stable IBL's and then release true F1 hybrids made from those. The concept of heterosis (aka hybrid vigor) is not some esoteric academic theory. It has been the basis for all crop improvement for hundreds and probably thousands of years. Here's an example: corn has been very highly bred by many people on thousands of acres for at least 100 years, and yields continue to rise by about 0.5% annually. Cannabis, indoors at least, has only been bred for 20 years or so, and the great strains such as NL, Skunk, and Blueberry were only 3 or 4 generations away from the indigenous landraces. Do you think there's any room for improvement here? Of course there is, but it's never gonna happen if people just keep rehybridizing the same things and never plant enough seeds to find the truly superior individuals.

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 4852
Overgrow Sponsor

My favorites?
In no particular order....

Paradise Seeds Soma Seeds Bros. Grimm SOL

Cheers!

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 2280
Overgrow Subscriber

Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 595

great thread
q for
shipperke
when you say
"Statistics tells us that any sample under 30 will not be representative of a large population"
do you mean
30 females???
or
30 seeds planted???
or
30 females and males???
and these are f1, f2, and so on correct?

so what about p1 and p2
what number of samples/seeds would be a good representation of the p1/p2 stock

sorry for the strange questions
but i am definitaly a rookie when it comes
to the finer points and intricacies(?) of plant breeding
so thank you very much for any insight you can give me!

peace and postivity
asiatica

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 2414
Team StrainGuide

Sensi (for the quality)

SOL (for the quality)

Nirvana (for the price)

Registered: Not Yet
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Well, no one mention bonguru who from what I have been told has worked for breeders for many years. After doing alot of research and questioning Im growing both his strains in my next grow for the post on his stuff has been nothing but all good and his stuff kicks mundo ass..peace

Registered: Mar 2000
Posts: 3427

Asiatica I think it depends on if you're looking for a sex-dependent trait. Germ ratio, general vigor, resistance to insects, water stress, heat, etc. can be evaluated in both males and females. But the traits that only matter in females, such as gland size, concentration, and composition, are only found in females so that's where you need to look to see if your cross is worth pursuing. The 30 number is not specific to cannabis or even to plant breeding, according to my mathemetician friend that is the point where any normally-distributed data set will settle down and start to look like a bell curve. Any smaller and it's a crapshoot.

For example in the past year I've planted about 200 Trainwreck F1's and I've found 3 females that have the shape, yield, aroma, and high that are worthy of taking to the F2. Plant in batches of 25 or so, cull any that don't match your specs exactly, repeat.

If you stick with it long enough to find males that are shiny with odiferous resin, you have done something right and you should keep them alive at all costs, and use them as pollen donors to test prospective seed mothers. This, in essence, is the basis of SOL's success.

In other words you know that the male is doing his part, both from the male's appearance and the testcrosses you've made with him, so any flaws in the progeny must be due to weakness in the female.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 1007

I'm long long time smoker, but newbie grower.
from a newbie growers point of view.
I've only have grown 2 strains so far

Serious Seeds / White Russian - Awesome plant. A+ to SS

Mr Nice / SSH - Fell in love with this plant. A+

-g

Registered: Not Yet
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It's more like a lottery.

You may find that little Italian villa with the mom and pop ice cream shop, that has that spcecial flavor that you find Ooooo so good.

While at the same time, you may find the big shop with a 101 flavors, isn't that good, and they all taste sort of similar.

Registered: May 2003
Posts: 845

Re_Thorax,
"There isn't a *breeder* out there that has really done anything significant."

Wow, are you mixed up!!! Are you refering to breeding 500 years ago? Before Mendel or Darwin or even jets to allow easy travel to the four corners of the world to collect Cannabis seeds? Before THC was discovered, before the first corn or rice or wheat Hybrids were made or even thought of.

Here is a short corn breeding history for perspective:
Much of the work in corn improvement was conducted by farmers and seedsmen in the U.S. in the late 1800's and early 1900's by mass selection for large, attractive ears. This was followed by a move to ear-to-row selection in which each selected ear was planted in a separate row and the best looking ears were saved. Large midwest corn shows developed in which the largest ears of corn with straight rows won prizes and were used to plant successive crops; unfortunately, due to the effect of inbreeding, these were not high yielding. In 1910, the famous work of E.M. East and G.H. Shull on inbreeding and crossbreeding provided the basis for the development of modern corn hybrids. At the same time, there was a renewed interest in the science of genetics with the rediscovery of Gregor Mendel's work on heredity. Further corn breeding work by H.K. Hayes, D.F. Jones and many others resulted in the development of improved inbreds, double-cross hybrids, three-way crosses and eventually single-cross F1 hybrids for modern corn production. Corn yields increased dramatically by the 1950's, especially with the availability of improved fertilizers.

"Not one of the seedbanks today would be in existance if it wasn't for the original strains from all those farms all over the world.....the places where the work was done."

This does not mean they were competent breeders, they were farmers with a lot of simpatico to the herb, but they were not breeders as we think of today. Amd the landraces were not the product of any one breeder, rather they were the result of hundreds of years of effort by many many farmers. But they did not make IndicaXSativa Hybrids or all female seeds or any other fancy breeding work, they just maintained their local landraces. I am not saying that all of the modern seed breeders that make seeds are true breeders, I am saying that the farmers from 500 years ago were not breeders either, just good farmers with a good eye for details.

And FYI, there are good Cannabis breeders alive today, you just have not taken the time to find them or their work.

What is a good breeder? Someone that sells you a seed that grows a plant you like, or someone that uses science to create a variety that is superior to fit a specific goal? I think the latter is, but both are important. But I do like consistant varieties that are the same each time you plant a seed.

What varieties do you grow? What would be a good breeder to you? What is significant?

-SamS

Last edited by Sam_Skunkman on August 26th, 2003 at 04:04 PM

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 754

Sam you are so right. There is a huge difference between maintaing a crop and breeding. Most of the "old" varieties were used for hash making or as material(paper,rope,etc.). Not until breeders came along did the evolution of mj as we know it occur.