Subject: Re: This was memory fragmentation From: bart demoen Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:20:35 +0100 Newsgroups: comp.lang.prolog Path: newssvr13.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm04.news.prodigy.net!newsdst01.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.com!newscon04.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!news.net.uni-c.dk!aotearoa.belnet.be!ikaria.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.prolog Organization: BELNET - The Belgian Research Network Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <7fgjq3lhifndc79jmiu0bts2fnds1aou4o@4ax.com> <2008Feb7.142929@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <3gemq3der5fu1fu2ktc1c0olrbvgu04j92@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kotnet-149.kulnet.kuleuven.be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ikaria.belnet.be 1202415636 15596 193.190.253.149 (7 Feb 2008 20:20:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@belnet.be NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:20:36 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Xref: prodigy.net comp.lang.prolog:40247 On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:17:43 -0600, A.L wrote: > > Generally, "type free" languages are not welcomed in the industry... I think that most people - whether from industry or academia - understand this, and also know why industry wants types. The question is why typed languages are not welcomed in academia ? Or maybe I should be more specific, because typed languages are welcomed in most academic circles, also in declarative programming circles, so: WHY ARE TYPED LANGUAGES NOT WELCOMED IN LP-ACADEMIA ? ^^ But that is not a fair question either, because other LP languages do embrace types, and even see them as necessaray (see e.g. ASP type of languages). The argument about having to "type a lot" (as in hitting the keyboard often) is really no good: every declared type saves more keyboard strokes than it required - even if the system has no type inference. The argument that one can achieve a lot with the mustbe predicate ... well yes, but as we say in flemmish: it is a plaster on a wooden leg. Because mustbe cannot give guaranties. If you think it can - just consider the fact that I can omit the mustbe checks. Saying it is the programmer's fault, if (s)he doesn't put the checks, is like saying that - while not enforcing driving at the right side of the road - it is the driver's fault (s)he drove at the wrong side, when an accident occurs. Programming without types is fine for people like Jan, Ulrich and ... (I'm stuck, who else can I add to this list): they are disciplined people who would of course never drive at the wrong side of the road intentionally, but that is the key point: even they DO drive at the wrong side sometimes, unintentionally, because they are human (I must confess I never do, but I am an alien, or else I do it on purpose) and because programming is a complicated game. Now surely, I hate to comply to rules, just like any free minded European; I hate to type the declarations and predicates, but I know it is good for me, and for those who must use my software. I hate to put on my safety belt in the car. I hate to limit my speed. I hate to be sober when I drive. I hate to pay taxes. I generally hate to do the right thing. I hate people making me do things I hate, especially when they are right. And I hate to admit this, but I know I should embrace those things I hate. Not letting Prolog evolve into a typed language, is denying it survival. Or rather, it is like signing its death certificate prematurely. Cheers Bart Demoen