Posted by Elephantine [Elephantine] on August 22, 1999 at 11:46:56 {U.DeGxElU20tNe9h8PVQWa3N4Nhgrs}:
In Reply to: ***OK, CARL, YOU WIN....VAT4956 posted by 5GJW Lite on March 14, 1999 at 16:28:23:
Dear Brother,
I have JUST read the series of posts on the web about revisionist
chronology.
Some of the messages were rather heated,Yours included, --I can understand
the frustration--.This is not in any way a condemnation --for I understand
the nature of the beast--We all want to get our point across and "they"
will not listen--thus-- this results in shortened tempers and outbursts.
I do want to possibly add the following for your consideration--
And I am SURPRISED that I haven't seen any reference to "The Almagest" and
the
astronomical data from specific identifiable years --such as eclipse years.
There is no doubt that Ptolemy believed that the data that he was
calculating--was correct--he also believed that the sun orbited the earth
as did the other planets--
he even indicates that the information was calculated and he shows the
calculations.
Today it is possible for us in our homes to have access to astronomy
programs and view a representation of the sky in the years of the
eclipses--as referred to by Ptolemy.
Of course there are some small errors in the calculated positions.
Ptolemy did not just appear with his knowledge of astronomy--he was a
product of his era and was the inheritor of all the astronomical knowledge
and learning up to his time --even from the Seleucid astronomers.
I ask that you review what follows --the papyrus documents from Elephantine
DO date from the Persian era--and the Seleucid and Ptolemaic astronomers
no doubt had access to them--some are communications to and from Babylon--.
This may be the key to understand how a group of astronomers could
calculate the astronomincal data for an eclipse and give the proper data for the year alledged to be the eclipse year --(the proper data but for the
mis-calculated eclipse date)---in -the WRONG EXELIGMOS CYCLE. The Elephantine Papyri can be calculated to give a false date --50 years earlier than what was intended.
They did not have the Roman (Gregorian ) calendar that we have-it would have been easier on us.
All this proves is that Ptolemy was able to calculate data--not that he was a proper chronologist. The
Ptolemaic and Seleucid astronomers
in calculating any date could then calculate the astronomical position for
any heavenly body--giving for example the position of the sun and moon in
degrees within a Zodiacial sign.Please see the short discussion on the
double dated Papyri.
Ptolemy simply calculated the data for the calculated years--he did not record the ancient data--just as the Seleucid astronomers did not record data from the time of Nebuchadnezzer or Cambysis --they
merely calculated the date --then calculated the data for the alledged date--this is simply done
now as well as then.
When we now read their calculated data for the alledged years --the data corresponds for the
calculated date --not because it was observed and recorded --it was calculated (and with the expected errors).
To argue that the data does not conform to the calculated date --is not wise. The data fit perfectly --it is that the calculated date --like an eclipse --can be confused with another eclipse because eclipses occur in cycles -(especially the EXELIGMOS CYCLE) --the Babylonians for certain knew of the saros and exeligmos cycles and could calculate data for ANY date forward or backward.
But the key to chronology is the eclipse that no one knows about--it can be
no other eclipse.Please read:
Dear Sir,
There is a fatal flaw in the method to calculate the "anchor dates" for the
accepted
Assyrian, Babylonian,Persian and Judah/Israel chrorologies.
If you read Thiele --his lone "known" date in the Assyrian Chronology is
the eclipse
of the 10th year of Asher-Dan lll. The eclipse of Bur Sagle was not in 763
BC. This eclipse is the key to dating the Assyrian Eponym Canon.
I know that everyone accepts the 763 BC dating.Therefore, no one
even questions the date. It is none-the-less incorrect.
In chronological circles research is poisoned by having the wrong
eclipse date assigned to the Bur-Sagle (10th Year of Asher-Dan III) eponym
In this year the Assyrians recorded that an eclipse of the sun occurred.
This is the only eclipse in the eponym list and is dated in 763 BC;
however, the proper date is 709 BC..
Eclipses occur in cycles --the 18 year and 10 or 11 day cycle is called a
saros cycle, three saros cycles make one (1) exeligmos cycle--when the
eclipse viewed 54 years and 31 or 32 days earlier is repeated (or viewed )
at the same locations as 54 years earlier it is not just 54 years later but
also 31 or 32 days later.
The 31 or 32 days are important
These data from the Assyrian eponym Canon record that the eclipse
occurred in the 3rd month-
-the accepted date is June 15, 763 BC. while the 763 BC eclipse
was visible in Ninevah -in 763 the date June 15 is the last day of the 2nd
month.
The proper date for the eclipse recorded in the Assyrian records is the
occurrence in 709 BC.
--the July 17,709 BC eclipse was in the 3rd month -the last day of the 3rd
month.
...............All solar eclipses occur on the last day of a lunar cycle.
July 17 is late for the last day of the third month--but due to the
intercalation of the calendar this is true.
I thought that I might share the information that follows with you in
hope that you or someone you know might be interested in how dates
are"set"
by chronologists. And, I might add, chronologists and historians have
done a poor job of calculating the proper dates in antiquity--by
mis-applying
the astronomical data that are available. Since you are interested in
Astronomy and history--and possibly ancient Mesopotamian history --I offer
the following:
Eclipses re-occur in regular cycles :
There is the saros cycle of 18 years and 10 or 11 days--
and three saros cycles equal the longer exeligmos cycle ( of 54 years and
31 or 32 days).
When an eclipse occurs --it re-occurs in the next saros occurrence
(after 18 yrs+10 or 11 days)--120 degrees west -from where it last was
visible.
then in the third saros occurrence(360 degrees from when it first occurred
--that is at the same
longitude and only 6 degrees difference in latitude)- we have an exeligmos
occurrence in the cycle.
THE ECLIPSE CHRONOLOGISTS DON'T KNOW ABOUT
There is an eclipse that no one knows about --or even suspects that it
was
an eclipse that caused the effect of a shadow being moved back 10 degrees-
and therefore have never connected the Biblical story to an astronomical
event.
It involves refraction of light (shadow) by ten(10) degrees exactly It is
the famous story of the sundial moving back by 10 degrees in the 14th year
of Hezekiah.
THE EVENT (ECLIPSE) is when the shadow went back by 10 degrees.It
was simply the law of refraction of light. This can be readily
demonstrated and repeated
In the evening (at about sunset) as the light comes in the west facing
window and casts a shadow from
the pencil that you have set up in a perpendicular fashion --you then
should eclipse that general light source with your body --moving across the
window .At the moment that the light illuminating the pencil is
"eclipsed" you should notice the shadow moving in the direction back
toward
the side from which it was eclipsed.
The room would need to be darkened--that is maybe the other
windows blocked and all lamps and other light sources extinguished.
Another way to demonstrate the shadow being refracted--is to start with a
darkened room--
then with a general light source (a lamp with the shade off)
eclipse the light source from illuminating the object (pencil?) and witness
the shadow move.
What happened in the 14th year of Hezekiah was that--as the sun set
-there was an eclipse.
The shadow-{-of Jachin and Boaz(the two columns at the outer porch)} was
cast to the east on to the steps leading to the solar altar which was on
top of the wall. In the late fall the shadows are 6 to 7 times the height
of the object casting the
shadow.The refraction of 10 degrees is measurable and is exactly10
degrees each time.--Mark the original shadow -then the refracted shadow
> > > > > > --measure with a protractor--it is always 10 degrees.
Ahaz had the altar of burnt offering moved to the north --and had a
solar roof altar erected to the east of the temple. The steps to
the solar roof altar were the recipient of the shadow from Jachin and Boaz
(the two columns) each day but more especially in the late fall and
winter.(longer shadows)
THE ONLY DATE POSSIBLE is 11-11-660 BC. On this date at sunset there was
an eclipse of the sun and the sun set while eclipsed - the shadow was
then
due east.
Most of all the "experts" place the date of the 14th of Hezekiah in
about 714 BC --note the 54 years.(54 years is the length of one
exeligmos cycle)that is to say, this period of chronology is off by about
54 years.
In 714 BC there was an eclipse--but at 2 PM --therefore no shadow
on the steps---the eclipse of 714 BC cannot be the correct one.
But because your academic fellows don't know about eclipses and
refraction of shadow - and have *never* connected this event with
astronomy(-this is
something that no one ever told them about --and it is in no book) there
are none of your contemporaries who are aware of this.
The only *research* that most do is to read what someone else has written.
My only interest is to share --and let the world know something important.
This; however, will shake the chronological world.
*There is a connection of Shalmanessar II with David King of
Israel--this can only be reconciled with a properly dated Assyrian Eponym
Canon.
*One of the keys to the chronology of the period is the parallel Macedonian
kingdom--the parallel Macedonian chronology shows how about
50 years was added to the Persian chronology--and I add, incorrectly.
A few more "mistakes" that everyone believes--but they are still false.
1. All chronologists insist that the Israel king at the battle of Karkar
was Ahab--it was, however: -- Jehohaz.
2. Nearly (if not all) identify the Israel King that paid tribute in
the18th year of Shalmanessar lll ---
as Jehu --when the true identity was Jehoash.
Laua (or lauua ) is not Jehu but Jehoash.(yhowach)-- (YAWA)(YAUUA)
double "u" is w (in the Assyrian --it is LAUUA --interpreted wrongly as
Jehu----
the correct transliteration of "lauua" is "Jauua" which in Hebrew is
Jehoash.
3. There is an eclipse that no one knows about.
The Identifying mark is the refraction of light by *exactly* 10 degrees
No one has even speculated as to WHY the shadow reversed.
The eclipse occurred at sunset --the date 11-11-660 BC --the 14th of
Hezekiah. THE ONLY DATE POSSIBLE-check it out.
I will share my evidence with you--if you request.
THERE IS ANOTHER CYCLE OF ASTRONOMICAL OCCURRENCES
There are the double dated papyri from the colony at Elephantine.
Many of these documents are dated in two dating systems --
they are dated in either Persian or Jewish months and days--
AND they are double dated in Egyptian dates (months and days).
The dating on these papyri *repeat * in a 50 year cycle.
Which is to say --if one would calculate the Egyptian date given in the
papyri and find the year when the Egyptian date coincides with the Persian
Date
-The coinciding repeats in a 50 year cycle.
Again the chronologists in the past have set the dates of the
Persian Kings in the wrong cycle.
I will give just two examples ----both in the 4th year of Darius ll.
Kraeling 7 --the 1st of Tishri is the same as the 1st day of Epiphi.
This is true on Oct 2, 420 BC
It is ALSO true on the correct date of Sept 20, 370 BC (Sept 19/20 Jewish)
AP 20---also in the 4th year of Darius ll--
The 1st of Elul is the same as the 1st of Payni.
This is true in 420 BC--Sept 2
This is also true on August 20, 370 BC
What we have is two different Papyri --both referring to the same year and
giving us two consecutive Jewish months that coincide with two consecutive
Egyptian months.
And this occurred not once but twice --50 years apart.
Chronologists think that they have the proper date --because the two
calendars coincide --but they have "set" the date 50 years too soon
for the Elephantine Papyri.
In the- Papyri from the Jewish colony of Elephantine-22 of the papyrus
documents record with double dates --both Egyptian and Persian dates
during the
reign of Persian kings. There are two calendar systems involved.
The Egyptians had a 365 day calendar and the people at Elephantine
used a lunar calendar as well --which is tied to the new moons .
But for now let us look at some other examples:
1. Kraeling #3 --has the Egyptian date Payni 9 being the same as the
Persian date of Elul 7 in the 28th year of Artexerxes 1st.
2. Kraeling #1--has the Egyptian date of Phamenoth 25 being equal with the
Persian date of Sivan 20 in the 14th year of Artexerxes 1st.
While the dates coincide in the years accepted by Assyrio-chronologists
the phenomenon of the Egyptian and Persian coinciding--repeats 50 years
> later
And (of course) the double dated papyri --covering the reigns of
Darius 1st, Xerxes, Artexerxes, Darius 2nd, and Artexerxes 2nd tie the
dates of Judah, Israel, Babylon and Persia together.
3. The papyrus document designated AP 14 concerns the 25th year of
Artexerxes 1st
---Of course he was the King in whose reign was the decree to
return and build Jerusalem (see Daniel 9:25) and--How important could the
years of his reign be?-----------------------------
-In the 25th of Artexerxes 1st --Pachons 19 (Egyptian date) is
the same as Ab 14(Persian date)
This is true in Aug 14/15, 390 BC.
There is , as we have previously discussed, the long cycle of eclipses
(exeligmos cycle)
where eclipses repeat at the same place on earth in a cycle of 54 years
and 31 or 32 days.
That is to say that the eclipse that is" THE ANCHOR DATE "of Assyrian
chronology 15 June 763 BC--was repeated on 17 July in 709 BC--
The experts chose the wrong occurrence in the cycle --and now no one will
even
challenge the dogma of 763 being the proper date.
Even if 709 is correct --it is too hard to change the text books or
challenge
Dr. Edwin Thiele's hypothesis--and all others who blindly follow along.
While the above statement might seem self-serving ---the fact
is that there is little original thinking and/or research (most of what
people call research is reading what others have written on a subject--
and one "expert" seeking the approval from his fellow "expert" -
its-publish or perish.
Looking up a subject in an encyclopaedia or quoting archaic thinking is
not research. .
All eclipses from the Assyrian eclipse in the 10th year of Asher- Dan lll
to the eclipse in the 7th year of Cambysis (should be 469 BC)
to the eclipses in the reign of Darius (20 and 31st years --which
by the way are the 20th and 31st years- Egyptian years -not the Persian
years)
down to but not including the Eclipse before the battle of Arbela
When Alexander defeated the Persian King --Darius lll--
Are "set" in the wrong occurrence in the cycle (54 years too soon).
Most people are not even aware that eclipses repeat.
Chronology, by accepting dating using an occurrence of eclipses in the
wrong
cycle or the wrong dates
from the double dated papyri--,have shortened the Judah chronology
by about 50 years and lengthened the Persian chronology by the same 50
years. And done violence to the synchronism of the king lists of
Judah and Israel.
All problems in the synchronism of the Judah King list with the Israel king
list
vanish --with the proper dates of the contemporary kingdoms
(Assyria , Babylon and Persia).
Please contact me to see how easy the synchronism is--unless you apply the
proper dates and see for yourself.
The refraction of the shadow in the 14th of Hezekiah is THE KEY to
developing a proper chronology.(this "sets" the true dates of Sargon)
This is not a repeatable event--while there was a repeat of the
eclipse
in the exeligmos cycle (714 and 660 BC)-----> only the 660 BC
occurrence is at sunset-the 714 occurrence was at 2 PM.
Andy Burns> > > >
P. S.
When something new is brought to light (and it is true) there is a rocky
road to acceptance.
1st --there is rejection--no one ever thought that before
2nd--anger and hostility--if he won't go away we'll have to do him in
3rd--is acceptance--truth is now so evident and everyone can see it.
I know that for you to accept this --and share this information with your
academic fellows--would not be in your best interest-politically.
Has no one ever thought that in the chronology of Judah and Israel there are Sabbatical years
that are identifiable and any "scheme" must conform to the Sabbath cycle?
In on of your posts--it was stated
that the The "70 weeks prophesy which
prophesies the coming of the Messiah 483 years after
"the
word goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem"
The 70 week prophecy is a 490 year prophecy---
it is not a 483 year prophecy.
70 weeks is 10 Jubilee cycles --that is from the start of a Jubilee to
another
Jubilee--would be 490 years.
Daniel 9:24 concerns 490 years.
Dn.9:25--concerns 62 weeks--to Messiah.(434 years)
9:26--the 62 is addressed separately.
The 70 weeks start in the 6th of Darius--the 62 weeks start in the 7th of Artexerxes.
Both prophecies --end with the aointing of Messiah.
Daniel 9;27 should read --"He shall confirm the covenant with many at the
start (first of)
a week...."instead of"...for one week...."
The Jubilee year after all is at the "start" of a week (of years).
The 490 year prophecy --starts at the end of the 70 year period -from the
destruction of the temple --TO-- the dedication of the re-built temple in
the 6th year of Darius.
The 62 weeks start at the command to return and build Jerusalem.--This was
in the 7th year of Artexerxes .
There were 196 years from the Jubilee year in the 14th of Hezekiah --TO--
the dedication of the re-built temple in the 6th of Darius.Then there are 490 years TO Messiah.
196 years is 4 jubilee cycles.From the Jubilee year of deliverence of
Hezekiah--TO--
the Jubilee year of the dedicated temple is 196 years .
Then the 490 years (10 Jubilees ) TO--the anointing of the Holiest of
Holies;Jesus the Messiah.
More later on the 7 weeks--
1 There is a 70 week prophecy
2. There is a 62 week prophecy
3. There is a 7 week prophecy--The answer is right there in John 2:20--The temple was torn down on the command of Herod --3 years before it was "built"
and continued to be built for 46 more years -up to the 1st year of Yashua.
The command of Herod was 7 weeks --49 years Before the anointing of The TRue TEMPLE---John 2:21.