Posted by Hi Gary. Jaypeeto [Jaypeeto] on April 01, 1999 at 20:31:18 {feW1wc1uNQ0hi4VK0MIQHq/lZhRVmk}:
In Reply to: ***WTS/Freemansonry/Crowley Links posted by Gary on April 01, 1999 at 11:30:07:
Gary,
I may have gotten you all wrong on your post,
as to your intention,
but still, as you have explained your position
above, I cannot agree.
Regardless of Rutherford's sins, etc.,
my issue with this ORG. is it's
fundamental
claim that it represents as to its basic
doctrines (quite APART from ANY predictions)
represents the doctrinal system of the early churches established all over the ancient world
by the apostles and Paul prior to
100 A.D.
and which, THEY MAINTAIN, "Gradually"
apostasized FROM these basic "Truths."
Again, you cannot "APOSTASIZE" FROM
a belief system that DOES NOT EXIST.
You cannot DEPART FROM a set of interpretations
which you
have NEVER HELD in the first place.
There is absolute ZERO evidence that the
early church held to the basic tenets of
Jehovah's Witness/Russellite doctrine.
There is also ZERO evidence that
any SECTS in the first two
centuries
held to the basic set of beliefs held-to
by the Jehovah's Witnesses.
That set, so we're REAL clear, is THIS:
a) Jesus is the ARCHANGEL Michael.
b) You MUST NOT pray to JESUS.
c) Communion must be observed
ONLY once a YEAR.
d) You MUST use the Tetragrammaton
when praying and sermonizing.
e) Jesus died on a SINGLE UPRIGHT POLE.
f) There is NO HELL.
g) Man does not "have" a soul.
Now, you do find, for example,
EBIONITES
who don't believe in the soul.
Ancient Jehovah's Witnesses perhaps?
NOPE.
They don't make a stink about the cross,
and, very importantly, they DON'T believe
in the Virgin Birth of Jesus (JWs do!),
and
explicitly teach that Joseph literally
fathered Jesus via intercourse with Mary.
There is no ancient group which holds to the fundamental set of interpretations which JWs
assert are the CRYSTAL CLEAR teachings of the
apostles,
neither IN the church at large,
nor in the sects.
Irenaeus in the second century put together a large, five volume TOME called AGAINST THE HERESIES. He really comes down hard on every
group known to him. None of them resemble
Jehovah's Witnesses, either.
Irenaeus holds to beliefs utterly INcompatible
with Jehovah's Witnesses basic beliefs, and
opposes groups that don't hold his positions.
Had he known of a group of people who held to
your
positions, it is utterly unreasonable to
suspect that he would not have opposed that group, too, with equal vehemence.
Remember, this was mid to late 2nd century that
Irenaeus wrote. The GRADUAL apostasy would
still be
happening. There should be evidence
of out-and-out war in the congregations ringing the Mediterranean between JW-type factions
and "Christendomish" factions on the other.
Instead, there is dead silence.
That silence speaks
volumes.
Best to you,
Jaypeeto