Posted by AF [AF] on March 31, 1999 at 10:14:35 {ohFII14TUctWYktmF7cQdaOt1gg/Zk}:
In Reply to: ****What is a Prophet? posted by Friend on March 30, 1999 at 12:45:22:
:: I believe that anyone who can unravel your so-called reasonings will see clearly who engages in massive twisting of words.
: Is this supposed to be an explanation of why Revelation 2:21 has Jesus saying, "I gave her time"? Is it supposed to be an explanation of why Jesus acknowledged others remaining in association with false prophets as being in his congregation?
No, it's an invitation to readers to read what we've posted and see for themselves what the story is.
: You still have not dealt with those issues though they scripturally represent the manner in which Jesus actually judged false prophets and teachers amongst his people.
I haven't largely because it seems so obvious to me that using something like Revelation to prove anything at all is an exercise in futility because it usually results in massive contradictions. Let's take one example. Suppose Rev. 2:21 can be applied as you claim. Compare this with the most common application of Revelation's image of "Babylon the Great" as representative of religious misleaders. You already admit that the Society is a religious misleader. Rev. 18:4 says "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to receive part of her plagues." And of course we have lots of scriptures that instruct worshipers of Jehovah "not to touch the unclean thing". Which ones do you go by?
Now let's look at Rev. 2:18-29 a bit more carefully. It's true that in verse 21 Jesus says that he gave Jezebel time to repent, and that the context acknowledges that others remained in association with this wicked false prophetess. However, in verse 20 Jesus castigated the congregation: "I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel". Starting in verse 22 Jesus (obviously speaking symbolically) says that he is about to punish her along with those who fail to repent of her deeds. Clearly, those who went along with her were among those whom she misled (verse 20). What about those who were not misled, but who willingly went along with Jezebel's false teachings? Clearly, Jesus held it against them.
Now, you may argue that it's perfectly fine to willingly tolerate and go along with false teachings and such that even result in the death of people, but I don't think that, according to Rev. 2, Jesus will agree with you. It may take time for him to deal with these people, but it's a different story when someone knowingly goes along with and supports and defends people or organizations that they know are hurting people and teaching false things about God.
So let's have a straight answer: should Christians knowingly tolerate something that Jesus explicitly says they shouldn't?
With reference to the Watchtower Society, you've admitted that you're painfully aware of how much falsehood this organization has promulgated, and still does, and that it hurts people. By its own standards you are an apostate because you don't go along with its most basic teachings, especially the most basic of all - that its leaders speak for and represent God himself. So you defend an organization that would kick you out if your real feelings became generally known among its members, and you claim that it's ok to associate with it because Jesus didn't immediately takes steps against a false prophet 1900 years ago.
:: The bottom line is that you feel that it's ok for a religious leader or organization to teach falsehoods and make false predictions and falsely claim to speak in God's name.
: That is a bold accusation against my beliefs. I ask that you produce anything presented by me saying that I feel it's okay to teach falsehoods or make false predications in God's name. Not being immediately and adversely judged does not make those things okay.
Ok, fine - maybe you don't believe those things personally. But you support and defend those who do, and you go right along with people with a 120 year history of doing so. I merely assume that anyone who goes along with an organization to the extent of defending and supporting it must agree with its basic teachings and policies. Do you or do you not defend, support and agree with Watchtower teachings and policies in the main, despite admitting that they've taught plenty of false stuff?
:: [Bottom line] It's fine to associate with such known teachers of falsehood.
: More bold and unfounded accusation. Not being condemned for remaining in association with false prophets does not necessarily make it fine or necessary.
No, it's founded on your posted statements to H2O. You admit that you associate with known teachers of falsehood. You say that you do it for your own reasons. Therefore you must think that it is ok to do so. Otherwise you'd have to say that you're doing something you think is wrong, which would make you insincere and a hypocrite. Since I don't think you're insincere or overtly a hypocrite, I can only conclude that you think it's ok. If you think that something is wrong with this line of reasoning, then check off which of the following statements you agree with:
[ ] It's fine to associate with known teachers of falsehood.
[ ] It's wrong to associate with known teachers of falsehood.
Or is there some other explanation that I've missed?
:: [Bottom line] It's ok to condemn other religions for doing the same thing, but not JW leaders or the organization that supports them.
: More ridiculous misrepresentation of my beliefs. Show everyone where I've ever said such a thing.
Your actions prove it. By remaining an active JW you give tacit support to the Watchtower Society's policy of condemning all other religions for not following JW teachings. If you disagreed strongly enough with this policy, you'd quit. Giving tacit support to an organization when you could easily show active non-support proves where your loyalties lie.
:: Why is it ok? Because Jesus has not overtly stopped them, and so no one else should either.
: Nothing in my post entitled Falsely Prophesying or on related threads suggests that notion; it is just another of your misrepresentations. I suggest you produce something to back all these wild ideas.
You've consistently justified your claim by statements such as at the beginning of this post: " ... Revelation 2:21 has Jesus saying, `I gave her time' ". If Jesus "gave her time", then he has not overtly stopped them, and anyone who did could be construed as "running ahead", which no one else should do. My point is proved.
:: Of course, anyone who isn't a JW can instantly see how such rationalizations are hypocritical and unchristian.
: What a hoot! You can say that with a straight face after all those bold misrepresentations you just made?
My characterizations were on the money. Obviously I've struck a nerve.
:: JWs won't let themselves see it because of the high cost of getting out of the organization.
: Your statement pretends that I consider remaining in association with JWs as somehow necessary.
No, not "necessary", but in your own best interests. That doesn't mean that I think you're wrong to remain a JW, but that your doing so is inconsistent with JW teachings and biblical teachings. It creates plenty of problems for your conscience. I'm not judging you, not by a long shot, but am pointing out that you know perfectly well how much it would cost you in social terms to quit the JW religion. Gone would be a good relationship with your parents, your family, your friends. Your wife might leave you. You could be disfellowshipped and isolated, and your grown children might shun you. That, my friend, is the cost tradeoff. With such a high cost, rationalization comes easy. Having gone through most of these steps personally, I know what I'm talking about.
: Also, you mistakenly pretend that people cannot have pure motives and good reasons for remaining in association with JWs and by extension the WBTS. I assure you that that is a mistaken notion.
In my experience, those who remain JWs despite knowing that the Society's most basic teaching is false - that JW leaders speak for God and are God's representatives to mankind today - do so for one basic reason: fear of complete loss of their social structure. When I came to know some of these folks I learned that they had a lot of other reasons, such as helping people deal with their problems and helping relatively helpless JWs deal with "the bears" (I got that expression describing hardnosed elders from one elder with a lifetime of experience in and on the fringes of the JW religion). These people certainly have "pure" motives in the sense that they are purely selfish. They also can find plenty of justification for helping people with their problems and perhaps even getting the Society to reform. Note that I'm not saying that selfish interests are wrong, just that one should recognize one's motives and not deceive oneself about having "higher motives".
I know perfectly well that things are not quite as black and white as I've painted them here. Individuals vary as to their mix of motives, but I think I've got the basics down solid with respect to the common denominator of wanting to avoid a social catastrophe. People who know the truth about "the Truth" usually wage a constant battle with their consciences because they know that the most unifying of JW teachings - that "we are uniquely God's people" - is wrong and probably suspect that it is even condemned by God because of the principle of not "declaring the righteous one wicked". How does one remain in good conscience under such circumstances? One does pretty much what other religious people do - realize that their religion is just another in the pile and not think too much about the things they disagree with. After awhile one realizes that quiet reform of a religion like the JWs does not take place.
AF