Posted by Glamotta-Revised [GLamotta] on March 28, 1999 at 15:05:53 {boLUiPtahcW91DOdCd4EMW2MRXA6xmpsc}:
In Reply to: *New Messianic Truths posted by Joseph Malik on March 28, 1999 at 09:50:10:
Hello Joseph,
First of all, thanks for commenting on this topic, I do have some conceptual revisions and refinements to be made with regard to the resurrection and certain scriptural applications. So thanks for making me look at this closer.
FIRST, YOUR COMMENTS, LINE-BY-LINE:
You know full well that this statement is not true.
It is my opinion that there is still no resurrection during the millennium.
We had a discussion here on h2o regarding
this
and neither you nor Mark Miller and/or his followers were able to support this view, also claiming
that the Revelation is sequential on this point.
All I can say here, as I had earlier, that the Bible presents these events in a certain order which I do not believe can optionally be taken out of order based upon the context as well as certain phrasing. You, however, require a special reorganization of these laid out events in order to reintroduce the resurrection during the millennium. That's your choice. But it is you and not us that need to make this special concession in this case.
I pointed out that not only the 144,000 but also the
Nations were raised and existed during
the 1,000 years simply by using REV chapter 20 itself.
Again, a matter of opinion as to who is alive during the 1000 years. I believe those who survive Armageddon are the spiritually "dead the great and the small" who are alive during the millennium. These require no resurrection, but survive Armageddon. Among these are the "great crowd" mentioned in Revelation, whom at the moment I think probably represent those from among the temple organization, or JWs who finally get it together just before Armageddon, though they miss out on being part of the 144,000. How exactly this works out, I'm not sure. The reason why I think this is a focussed group is because they must come out of the "great tribulation." This is not the same "great tribulation" spoken of by Daniel in which the natural Jews are almost anihilated. That "great tribulation" occurs BEFORE the Messiah arrives. This "great tribulation" out of which the great crowd comes occurs AFTER the Messiah arrives, and AFTER the anointed are gathered. But I'm open on this until further reconsideration. However, though they're robes are white and they are now approved as "righteous" they do not go to the trees of eternal life "until after the 1,000 years are ended." Only the 144,000 have granted everlasting life before the millennium.
Furthermore our Lord's prophecies regarding this same kingdom recorded at Matthew 25 refutes
you
as such a selection occurs when he comes or arrives.
Now here is a KEY POINT and one which I had to revise. I now understand Matthew 25 to refer to the advent of JUDGMENT DAY and that the "nations" herein mentioned are the
general nations of all mankind who are resurrected. The critical point of difference here is that point where Jesus is said to "sit down on his glorious throne." This event, I believe is specific to when his throne for judging is set up
and he sits on this throne to judge mankind. As background consider these two scriptures:
Rev. 20:11 speaks specifically of a glorious throne being placed at the beginning of the period of Judgment Day: "And I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE and the one seated on it..." This is the event of Jesus now sitting on his glorious thone just before he is to judge all mankind.
And now, Matthew 19:28 is also critical in the timing of this event but quite consistent with Judgment Day: "Jesus said to them: "Truly I say to you, in the RE-CREATION, when theSon of man sits down upon his glorious thone, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Clearly, this is a reference to Judgment Day since these anointed ones could not judge the 12 tribes of Israel until their resurrection occurs during the general resurrection. But again, the event or act of Jesus actually sitting down on his throne to judge is addressed. Furthermore, the reference to this judging is said to occur at the "re-creation" which (pending further research) suggests at the time of the resurrection.
This is thus the context set up already in Matthew regarding this period of judging during Judgment Day. Thus it is expounded upon at Matthew 25 where it says "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."
This event describes what Jesus would do when he arrives during his second coming, but specifically not until after he sits down on his judgment throne which does not take place until after the millennium and after Satan has been destroyed.
In connection with this and suggestive that this indeed is referring to a period of time after Satan has been destroyed is the comment about what will happen to the goats in verse 41 which says: "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, "Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for theDevil and his angels."
Is this reference to the fire prepared for the Devil and his angels an indication that Satan and his
angels were already in the lake of fire. I would tend to think that might be implied here.
It seems the context suggests these will be joining Satan and his angels in the fire already prepared for them and in which they are already
in.
And ultimately, verse 46 says: "And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."
Thus again, this is the setting of Judgement Day, a time of absolute judment of the dead by Jesus Christ which takes place after the millennium. It is at this time that everlasting life and everlasting cutting off is determined.
So the critical point here is that this does not happen IMMEDIATELY upon the time that the Messiah retur ns but it is part of what he will do after he returns. In addition, since Satan is let loose after the millennium, one could say that that event is still part of the overall "separation work" that is being done by Jesus.
Ordinarily I'd
thus include the millennium as part of the "separation" process, but Matthew seems quite focussed and clear, again, with the specific
act of Jesus sitting down on this glorious throne, a special throne for judging mankind as noted in
Rev. 20.
And finally, we have clarity for Daniel 12. Daniel 12:2 as well, therefore includes as part of the general activity of Jesus Christ when he comes, not just the millennium but also judgment day when it says: "And there will be
many of those
asleep in the groundof dustwho will wake up,these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches and to indefinitely lasting obhorrence."
This, again, describes Judgment Day and the judging of the dead at the general resurrection. I had previously thought this must refer to the resurrection of the anointed ones, some of whom prove unfaithful, but that was because I was thinking of this as pre-millennium. I see clearly now, that is not.
But
one reason why we might associate this judging with the time of Christ's initial inspection is because there is a separation of "sheep and goats" in another sense when he first arrives among the
temple organization who are to produce
some of the anointed Bride Class.
This separation work occurs by angels immediately after the Messiah appears. But this involves not all the nations, but just a "little flock."
Therefore, it is important to note that there is a first and second resurrection, one that occurrs for the 144,000 before the millennium begins and a second one after the millennium. So many scriptures are available that may specifically refer to one or the other and it will be necessary, on a scripture-by-scripture basis to determine which resurrection and which separation period is referred to. But I'm confident there is no conflict in this regard.
What changes, conceptually for me, is the refinement of the concept of how significantly underlined JUDGMENT DAY is in comparison to the 1000-year reign, which had taken primary focus before. But it is clear that as special as the millennium "rest" is, that theultimate goal is bringing all events to the critical time of JUDGMENT DAY, when the very important event of deciding who will live and who will be condemned among mankind takes place which is a major event and activity with respect to the Messiah's second coming. That is, it seems that judging mankind ultimately, is more of a focussed event, if not critical activity that the Messiah will be engaged in, compared to ruling for 1000 years.
Joseph, thanks for your comments if you have any, they are welcome. Of course, though I see a bit more clearly now, I'm sure there can be some refinement so comment away if you wish. I did read through your information from your book on the ressurrection and I understand your positioning regarding the requirement to die and be resurrected into a new body to get into the "kingdom" which you assign specifically to the millennial reign of 1000 years. But this concept requires several concepts to come together, some of which I have found inconsistent with my view of what the scriptures present.
I suppose the critical conceptual revision I have with these scriptures, again, is how the Bible includes everything as part of the Messiah's second coming and the 1000-year reign is not overly emphasized in comparison to the final period of Judgment Day. How significant this is, is also underscored by Revelation, which ends the "system of things" after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. That statement that "heaven and earth fled" is a critical commentary on this very special day and time, making a very clear distinction as to the state of affairs from the time Satan is destroyed and the time that mankind is to be judged. This day begins with the placement of a glorious white throne and Jesus sitting down on that throne, then judging all the nations of mankind, separating them one from another, assigning them life or death. That's a pretty big deal for mankind, and receives more than adequate underscoring scripturally, something I had not appreciated before.
But you know how it goes. Once you've been raised in the truth,there are all those subtle, contextual misconceptions that you never really root out until you really deal with some technical issues like this. Because of those general misconceptions, sometimes the truth is clouded a bit. It's an ongoing shedding process of first false teachings, then false ideas and then false concepts.
So thank-you for helping me through this one. I see things much clearer now and in their proper context.
Cheers,
GLamotta
Why then do you insist on teaching this?
Are you ready now to prove it from scripture? Do you not
know that no one can enter the kingdom
for any reason unless first they die just as our Lord showed the way? Why do you in effect teach
that there is a way to bypass the resurrection and the life, the way the Watchtower still does
today
by telling their followers that some will simply walk in unscathed?