Astrology as science hides important issues that unnecessarily empower lawyers. Given my current situation, there is a lot to be said to going to supreme court in India to stop this monstrosity. It is a political controversy on the rights of the government to do stupid things - one that I support fully. The deeper legal issue is the absence of any right of the government to call it science. Beyond philosophical and legal issues are practical issues.

1. How can this govrnment be allowed to dip into funds earmarked for science?

2. How can this government be allowed to confuse issues for subsequent ones who may not want to fund this monstrocity and will find it impossible to separate scientists and astrologers?

3. How can this government be allowed to burden subsequent ones with the salaries, benefits, and pensions of astrologers fooled by this government into believing they were scientists?

This faith in astrology is hardly a monopoly of the Jansanghis. I think Indira Gandhi also used to make some important decisions based on the advice of her astrologers. In a way, I prefer that astrology be taught and debated in an open college lecture hall than be used secretly in the PM's office to make critical decisions affecting the whole country. One of the broad claims of astrology is that astronomical events (like the movement of the planets) affect life on earth. This claim at least sounds plausible in view of the chaos theory (e.g., a butterfly's movement in Brazil can impact the monsoons in India). Let the scientific approach validate or debunk the more specific or bizarre astrological claims. As for undermining India's credibility in sciences, Moraraji Desai was once ridiculed (especially in the West) for using auto-urine therapy. But he lived to be 99 while most of his detractors died (or will die) much younger. Cheers, VijayG

Anti-secracy good idea. Nothing plausible. Desai story hides a very important philosophical point How much to allocate for unknown and spend them on what? Future accidents are an example. Easy to see moderation is required. But what is moderation? How much of budget on these kind of unknowns? I have starting answers to be posted.

Some of the remarks made on this newsgroup to suggest that we should not be worried about the spending of taxpayer's money on bogus crap (I tried hard to think of a more subtle phrasing but failed) like astrology are
disturbing.  The fact is that we should be worried.

1.  Some people are so brainwashed against swadeshi philosophy that they are against it just because it is swadeshi:  This is the fallacy of the non sequitur.  The fact that astrology is b.c. has nothing to do with its ethnic associations or otherwise.  It is crap when practiced by east or west (they do lots of it here) and I reject all forms of it.  Why I reject it hardly needs explanation but here are some reasons: (1) lack of theoretical basis at least without introducing even more speculative ideas and constructs (2)consistent lack of predictive power which nevertheless does not dampen the enthusiasm of the believers (3) makes me want to throw up.

More dangerous is the dual of this viewpoint.  Namely, given that we are all patriots now, any crap with roots in India's past is now sacred and beyond dispute.  This allows all sorts of reactionary philosophies to flourish.

2.  Appeal to chaos theory: Come on Vijay!  I cannot believe that you believed that even as you wrote it!!  Chaos theory does not say that absolutely unrelated things could be connected and please do not quote Jurassic park as the source of chaos theory.

3.  Why shouldn't they spend the money as they want given that they have wasted so much money on training IIT graduates.  Well I will not address the question of whether money spent training IIT graduates was wasted or not. However, does the fact that money was wasted on "X" mean that it is okay to waste it on "Y"?  Certainly not.

4.  Indira Gandhi consulted astrologers in her office.  Well she was a mad old woman who almost drove the country to ruin.  Do her activities license all other forms of lunacy?

Inqualam Zindabad!
Prakash

A logical argument that based on experience will die in din and lack of viewer recognition. Not enough to crack jokes on lawyers Sir.

It would be interesting if the Janasanghis in the Universities Grants Commission would also encourge schools to teach yet another ancient Hindu preoccupation. I mean the one exemplified by Kamasutra.

  That might keep more of us from fleeing the shores of old Matribhoomi. Then more of us will be available to contribute to jyotish and Kamasutra studies. And more of us would be able to contribute to Jansanghi-Tehalka fund-raisers.

  Surely no student would bunk a Kamasutra cockshaw. And it would be a real scream, I suppose, to actually run into a B.Ks., a Bachelor of Kamasutra. "B.Kiss" for short.

  My old friend Suajata Puranik tells me that Murali Manohar Joshi was actually awarded a PhD in Physics. He wrote his dissertation on some aspect of spectroscopy at Allahabad University. By now clearly, to use a spectroscopic term, the man is clearly in the deep ultraviolet.

  I thought about sending him email ([email protected]). But there is little point in that, for surely he knows
already what I will write.

  I suppose someone will tell us next that Col. Sehgal sings bhajans. That Atal Behari is really a poet.

Regards, Arun

A powerful argument based on ridicule as coapplied - so good I steal it Sir. Except I would hand out BSex, MSex and DSex or may be SexD. The idea of Col. Sehgal singing bhajans broke me up like perhaps

Om jai bhenchod hare, sant jano ke dukh kshan may hare, ...

Whats wrong with astrology? It works after a fashion. A good astrologer can tell you amazing, true, stuff about you past, current and potential future. Predictions for future are general. If an astrologer tells you that tomorrw you buy a lottery ticket and you will become a millionaire he is faking. But if he says that this period is not good for your health, or this period is good for a change etc. it could be quite accurate. The problem is that there are so many fakers around, finding one who actually can do the job is difficult if not impossible. True astrological calculations are immensely complex and interpretations can also be cloudy. Some people have the knack but most fake it. I have seen accurate right predictions and absolutely false ones. 

Arghya

The issue of Astrology working is political, calling it a science legal.

I am not one swayed by the powers of astrology, but I've consulted astrologers on a few occassions out of curiosity. I was wondering if there are are others on this list with similar experiences.

I would summarise my observations as follows...
1. Astrologers appear to have an uncanny skill at narrating past events that have shaped one's life. I rule our possibilities of fraudulence, of them having done some quick research, or of friends having provided them such information.
2. Astrologers appear to have an uncanny sense of narrating current events in one's life, or activities being worked on or outcomes  hoped for.
3. By events I allude to the nature of relationships, health, character and trait, occupational proclivities, life expectency, travel, family members detail, successes and failures and so on. I have often wondered if information on such matter could be said in a general way (with the astrologers using street smarts to sense, client reactions) and expand in such area appropriately, begiling the client. I am certain this is not the case
4. Astrologers are generally (and almost quite uniformly) unable to predict future events with any precision, but there are exceptions and I've witnessed some rare events unfold almost to a T.

Dismissing astrology as an imprecise art, swadeshi pride etc may be premature. There may well be things about it, that the present world is unaware of, just like any other subject that developes according to the interest and research put into it. Without reasonable investigation, all comments are after all so much hot air.

Whether astrology deserves government funding may be questionable. Then again the world is quite blase about the pestilence and conflagration that has been unleashed through the powers of science. Yet its funding continues unabated. The uncomfortable truth is that, its not the truth that most are bothered about, but the continued preservation of one's privileges.

The issue of Astrology working is political, calling it a science legal. Let it be funded as a separate part of budget.

> Inqualam Zindabad!

Qualam in Urdu means a creative piece usually poetry.

In-qualam therefore must be a more radical form of written piece. (as in In-surgency, in-surrection, etc.)

Going by all the qualams presented on Atsrology in this forum one senses a lot of heat; in-sensed outpourings.

Before  this debate goes any further I suggest all of you look around and find out how many of you still have "Janam Patris" or "Kundalis" (or horoscopes) for yourself or your children. If you still have them around do let your rage and anger turn them into cinders.

As they say In-Qualam should start at home. Inqualab Zindabaad.Ravi Challu

I burnt mine long time ago with pleasure.

As an engineer it is probably very unfashionable to believe in astrology. However, I am convinced that if you are lucky enough to meet a good astrologer, the predictions can be very accurate. This is a case similar to that of Vaidyas of Ayurveda. I used to work in an Ayurvedic company and have come to have tremendous faith in the powers of this science. The only drawback is that it is more or less impossible to meet a good Vaidya these days. But that does not mean that Ayurveda itself is bunkum.

Similarly, there are some very fine astrologers. I have known some who can see Janampatris so well that they can make out whether the time mentioned in the original patri is accurate. This person I used to know, corrected my father's patri some 30 years back, and the predictions made by him on the basis of
revised patri have been found to be very accurate.

I guess it is all a matter of faith. But the main issue is that if there are some believers, why should they be denied a chance to study what they want. Non believers have a right not to believe, but they do not have a right to force the believers into not believing.

Alok

Not faith but legality.

The original issue, as I understood it, was not whether anyone has the right to believe - they surely do - but the use of public funds.  Public funds should be restricted for the indisputable common good.  Incidentally,
plunder for vested interests masquerading as the common good is not strictly a swadeshi phenonenon - in the U.S., note the private largesses i.e. pork adhering to every appropriations bill.

Of course, after astrology, palmistry, sorcery can't be far behind.  But then there's also the "power" of positive thinking, the immensely determinable and useful matter(?) of what happened to the universe between
10^-23 and 10^-8 seconds, and so forth.

So believers and non-believers have got to leave each other alone (learning from the smokers, the vegs, etc.) but that includes not raiding others' pocketbooks through the national treasury.

Amit Srivastava

Well put, Sir, except other is claiming they are not raiding any ones pocketbook.

Hi Dr. Arun Kumar Arya:
Hi Guru Sir Borkar:

I can understand your viewpoint, though I am sure those with that viewpoint would be a small minority in India.
However, I am not as upset as you are mainly because if you check the curriculae of any university, here, in these Advanced U.S., there could be as many as at least 5% of the areas of advanced study,  I feel you would
consider bogus. For example, did you know there were advanced publicly funded studies, here and in Europe,  on the "Parting of the Red Sea", excavation of sites purported to hold evidence of "Destruction of Sodom and
Gommorha" and get this "Jesus Christ may have survived crucifixion and escaped" ?  The list goes on and gets so ridiculous as to be positively entertaining, and it is your tax money.

There is a very important point this controversy raises that is central to most others too - ultimately these are to be resolved through peaceful debate between passionate advocates, but it is rarely the case that happens, instead very low life invade the issues, muddle it through propaganstic use of language and convert genuine contoversies into playthings for the rich and unaffected. I consider the money so spent to be a waste, say my reasons, accept the verdict and take the attitude of "do and die rather than wonder why". On the other hand, my blood boils and I shall never forive sub animals that seek to muddy the issues through propagandistic techniques since their objectives are victory, damn the process - wholly opposed to karma I was brought up with and so conveniently forgotten. I have a LOT of anger towards calling Astrology a science, just shame and political opposition to science-like. There is a whole lot of difference. Lama might be cult-leader-like for some, but it burns me for some one to call him a cult-leader.

This propagandistic abuse of language must stop, if nessarily with extreme penalties limited only by ANSWER. That still leaves the persistence, intelligence, and familial retribution options.

So my recommendation is that we do not get unduly enraged at the "jansanghi's shenanigans" .  If a majority of taxpayers, there, want it, who are we, on whom tens of thousands of Indian taxpayer money was spent, to
complain. Should the IITs be closed down because large numbers of its graduates vanish without repaying a rupee of taxpayer money? There is also a tendency to criticize "Swadeshi Philosophies" just because they are swadeshi
as westerners have brainwashed some of us into looking down on these concepts based on a double standard.

Jansaghi, swadeshi, etc are not my terms. As shamelessly one for many years for nationalistic and freemarket reasons, I have fought with limited success against the Ayodhya issues etc. Current issue will be another sad footnote. The reason for not shutting down IIT's is not benevelance towards the vanishers - too many graduates stay back AND benefit the society. Many NRI are also torn and would help a lot more if there were mechanisms for ensuring the rigid believable constraints on intermediary abuse and credit for the NRI.

I think astrology is pretty reliable: A man and his son went to a carnival. The boy went into the gypsy
astrologer's stall and came back trembling and said "Dad, the gypsy said-your father will die tomorrow".
Hi Dr. Arun Kumar Arya:

Even though the man was no believer, he was scared.He could not sleep that night, went to work very carefully, stayed in his office and took all the safety precautions such as looking on both sides while crossing the street
etc. Finally he returned home to see an ambulance and police cars at his door step. His wife, who was terribly upset came running out crying "Honey, the milkman just collapsed and died on the porch".

BRIGHT SIGNS!
How many members of your sign does it take to change a light bulb?
ARIES: Just one. You want to make something of it?

TAURUS: One, but just try to convince them that the burned-out bulb is useless and should be thrown away.

GEMINI: Two, but the job never gets done -- they just keep discussing who is supposed to do it and how it's supposed to be done!

CANCER: Just one. But it takes a therapist three years to help them through the grieving process.

LEO: Leos don't change light bulbs, although sometimes their agent will get a Virgo in to do the
job for them while they're out.

VIRGO: Approximately 1.000000 with an error of +/- one millionth.

LIBRA: Er, two. Or maybe one. No, on second thought, make that two. Is that okay with you?

SCORPIO: That information is strictly secret and shared only with the Enlightened Ones in the
Star Chamber of the Ancient Hierarchical Order.

SAGITTARIUS: The sun is shining, the day is young, we've got our whole lives ahead of us, and you're inside worrying about a stupid burned-out light bulb?

CAPRICORN: I don't waste my time with these childish jokes.

AQUARIUS: Well, you have to remember that everything is energy, so....

PISCES: Light bulb? What light bulb?

What google says on why this trash is catching on. Will it help my hunt for desirable women - easy to recite Hindi here as if one was an expert in and quoting from Sanskrit !! Act out the role of a learned vedic astrologer. Rajneesh & Mahesh yogi could!! The possibilities are mind boggling.

It is known as Hindu Astrology, or Vedic Astrology, for it springs forth from the ancient Vedas, the spiritual Bible of ancient India, reputed to be over 5000 years old!

The astrology of ancient India comes to us originally from the Rig Veda, the oldest of the four Vedas. The Vedas were originally an oral tradition that was passed down from family to family, generation to generation, reputedly over thousands of years. Along with the Vedas are ancillary texts known as Vedanga, or limbs of the Vedas. One of these limbs specifically explains astrology. It is called Jyotish Vedanga in Sanskrit, meaning "the limb of astrology." The oral traditions of this sacred knowledge were called Shruti in Sanskrit, meaning "that which is heard." Latter the oral traditions were written down, and referred to as Smriti in Sanskrit, meaning "that which is remembered." The astrology of ancient India draws a distinction between the knowledge that is directly transmitted orally from teacher to student, and the knowledge that later was written down in books. The consciousness of ancient India acknowledges the often sharp distinctions between that which has been heard, and later, that which is remembered!

About the 5th century AD many of the previous oral teachings were put into written form. Many of India’s greatest astrologer-sages appeared in this period of time. Such personages as Parasara, Vaharamihira, Kalyana Varma, and Mantreswar are known by their written masterpieces on Vedic Astrology; Hora Shastra, Brihat Jataka, Saravali and the Phaladeepika are all still readily available today.

In our time such prolific Indian authors as Dr.B.V. Raman, and most recently Bepin Behari, Dr. K.S. Charak, and K.N. Rao, have popularized Vedic astrology in western culture. In the last decade there has been a resurgence of the Vedic sciences (sic) in western thought largely facilitated by the writings of Deepak Chopra. Dr. Chopra’s popularization of Aryurvedic medicine has gone a long way in opening the western mind to eastern systems of healing and psychology. Aryurveda in Sanskrit means, "the science of life." Astrology in Sanskrit is known as Jyotish. Jyotish means, "the science of light." Both these Vedic sciences are limbs of the Vedas. But astrology holds a special consideration. It is known as "the eye" of the Vedas, for Jyotish gives light, and where there is light one can see the way ahead clearly. This is why the ancient Vedas say, "a King without an astrologer is like a man who is blind in his own home!"

Many western students of astrology commonly ask two pressing questions about Vedic astrology. They want to know how Vedic Astrology is different than Western Astrology, and why there is such a resurgent interest in this astrology at this time?

Firstly, Vedic Astrology is different than Western Astrology in that Vedic Astrologers use a different Zodiac. There are two Zodiacs, called the Tropical Zodiac and the Sidereal Zodiac. While Western Astrology uses the Spring Equinox as the fixed point of Aries, in the month of March, to start the Tropical Zodiac, Vedic Astrology uses the actual precessed constellation point of Aries, currently in the month of April, to start the Sidereal Zodiac. The difference between the two Zodiacs is currently 23 to 24 degrees. Planets in your Tropical astrological chart below 23 to 24 degrees of a particular sign, say the sign of Aries, will now become recognized by the previous sign, in this case Pisces. In this manner all the planets in your Tropical astrological chart will move backward into the previous degrees of the same or earlier sign.

This major difference between the two systems shocks many new and old comers to astrology alike. They often ask: How can there be two Zodiacs? Which one is correct?

The answer, of course, depends on your perspective. Relative to your point in the universe, the world reveals itself to you. For instance, viewed from the earth, the planets have a particular order, and appear to be moving through the zodiacal signs very differently than if viewed from the Sun. This is the difference between geocentric astrology, from the Greek meaning, "earth-centered", and heliocentric astrology, from the Greek meaning, "sun-centered". Your vantage point can be said to determine your perceptual reality. This is also true of the two Zodiacs, depending on the vantage point of the seasonal equinoxes, or the vantage point of the fixed stars. Reality is indeed a relative construct that can best be described in the old adage: What you see is what you get! It all depends on your vantage point!

Another vantage point that Vedic Astrology has, is the cosmological, psycho-spiritual viewpoint of the ancient Hindu, or Vedic culture. The sacred writings of ancient India are embodied in the Vedas, Brahmanas, Puranas and Upannishads. Their spiritual psychology and philosophical precepts are deeply ingrained in the concepts of Jyotish. The value system of ancient India is part and parcel of Vedic astrology. It is very different in its conceptual view of life than our modern western cultural viewpoint. For example, the four pursuits of life, as outlined in the Vedas are: Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha. The Sanskrit word Dharma reflects the purposeful unfolding of self in life. The word Artha, reflects our attitude toward the accumulation of money and the resources necessary to fulfill the self. The word Kama, refers to the rightful fulfillment of the desires of the self. Lastly, the word Moksha, reflects the desire of every soul to enlighten the self from the confinement of this world. These pursuits are qualified and reflected upon in consulting the Vedic astrological chart. The sacred infrastructure of the Vedas can lend a different perspective to a Vedic astrology reading that is not to be found in current western practice.

Perhaps, our second question is more challenging to answer. Why has there been such a renewed, intensified interest in Vedic astrology? Currently, it appears the western mind is going through a crisis, questioning the very values of today’s modern western society. The growing discontent has been echoed from Bosnia to Palestine, from Beijing to Tehran, and from Moscow to the Heartland of the USA.

 

Regards Guru
Regards to a gem, Arun

Dear Sir Joey,

The effectiveness of NRI as a lobby may well be due to distance, for when I was there, my views were not judged for their merits. This bothers me for the importance attached to views seem to depend on the viewer rather than views themselves. But if I can be more effective another way, that is how I shall be.

I would be very surprised if the scientific decision makers view astrology as a science. Unfortunately, politicians may well.

A year back I started my study of propaganda as a black art that needs to be understood to define the enemy and to destroy it. (Posted it too.) The single most obnoxiously powerful propaganda technique is linguistic abuse of words to play with the emotions of the mark. In this case it is science. Many conclusions follow naturally when this monstrous abuse is accepted. Who is a scientist? or Jew? Or white? Or pornographer? It relates professionally to me in that how does one assign site names rationally and not temporally empirically, which leads to cyber squatting. The rule I have invented is simple - if you want to be accepted as member of group G, then a subgroup of seers within the group must accept you, and a majority must not vote against you. Seer subgroup permits delegation. Negative vote kills simple abuse.

Consider elections. You are a candidate if nominated by an authorized group. You are not if a majority of existing voters think you are not. Latter part is inoperative for it is tantamount to elections!

Consider Jews. You are one if converted by an authorized group. You are not if a majority of existing Jews think you are not.

Consider draftees. You are selected if daft board picks you. You are not if a majority of existing politicians pass a law giving you exemption.

Consider science. You are a scientist if a group of scientists think you are, but are not if a majority of existing scientists think you are not. As long as a majority of existing scientists think astrology is not science, it is not, even if a minority think it is.

Consider the Minnesota moron who called the Lama a cult leader. You are a cult leader if a group of seers think you are, but are not if a majority of existing religious figures think you are not. A majority of existing religious figures disagree with his teachings but will not call him a cult-leader. It follows he is not, the so-caller is a moron whose stupidity should not be allowed to be genetically transmitted.

Consider site names. Each is a pair domain. person. domain names have a two letter geoprefix and common semantic suffix, inperon.arun-arya and usperson.arun-arya. ustm.coke and intm.coke. Eliminates lawyers, stupid courts, cybersquatting, useless buying of all names etc,

Consider object names. Each is a pair register. file. system. caller system. parent system. root system. home are self-evident and are system set. The pair form allows full flexibility (the register is settable) and still provides 80-90% constant names.

Consider menu layouts. Each element is a pair with the top level menu names fixed, internal fixed divisions (line separated) and dynamic commands inside the lines.

Dear Arun (Kumar Arya), Non- resident Indians (NRIs) are a strong and effective lobby and their views sent directly  to the Prime Minister's office will matter. But, my fear is that most Indians, here and abroad, do actually believe that this is a sensible decision.  I hope I am wrong!  A democratic process must require that scientific issues (such as science curricula) are decided by scientists and those competent to take a decsion.  In this case, the UGC is such a body, but has sold out to the knicker bockers despite protests from the scientific community.  If democracy is taken to mean that the majority view is always to be implemented, right or wrong, then in this case at least we are in a tight spot because the majority of the Indian public may well be with this. But one must not give up on these matters. best Joey

Rarely but surely have I dropped my head in shame - not only are these morons wasting public money, which is a right I will defend as I call the abusers stupid, but they are calling this monstrous revival science despite blunt widespread opposition from people generally called scientists. This kind of linguistic abuse and stupidity happens here too - witness a moronic MN lawmaker calling the Lama a cult leader. Clearly there is a GOIndia-science distinct from indian-science, and it is my right to issue a wakeup call to all citizens who care - let linguistic mischief not be allowed to sway them - and call on the familial devastation of subanimals like that. Let the other side of dispute call their thing GOIScience and not be allowed to cause severe propagandistic errors. For example it is choice/life debate, but not slavery/murder starkness. Those responsible for reducing debate to latter level must be dealt with very harshly for these are the kind of people who breed violence and hatred.

Dear Ducks,   Murli Manohar Joshi, a physicist!? Regards, Arun ---

Nature 411, 227 (2001) © Macmillan Publishers Ltd. Angry researchers pour scorn on astrology classes K. S. JAYARAMAN [NEW DELHI]

A proposal by the Indian government to encourage universities to teach astrology has sparked a storm of protest among scientists.    The University Grants Commission (UGC) has offered to fund fully fledged departments of astrology with five teaching posts, a library, computer laboratory and horoscope bank. To be called Jyotir Vigyan ('astrological science' in Sanskrit), the departments are to be set up for the 2001-2002 academic year. They will offer bachelors, masters and doctoral degrees.

    The proposal is the brainchild of science minister Murli Manohar Joshi, who is also minister for education and a powerful figure in the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party. Joshi, a physicist, believes that all answers sought by scientists are buried in the ancient Sanskrit writings called Vedas and Upanishads.    Leading researchers have condemned the move as an attempt to legitimize pseudo-science and superstition, and some have said that it undermines India's scientific credibility. The National Science Academy has expressed strong opposition. But there is no sign of the government relenting.    Meanwhile, 35 of India's roughly 200 universities have sought permission to set up courses, with more expected to follow.

    "At a time when research in fields of pure science is being affected for want of funds, there is no justification in spending huge amounts on pseudoscience called Vedic astrology," said Pushpa Bhargava, founding director of the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad.    Defending the move, UGC chairman Hari Gautam said that astrology qualifies as a science, which he defined as "a subject that needs probing, investigation and research".

   Two prominent UGC members - S. K. Joshi, a physicist and former director general of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, and Sipra Guha-Mukherjee, a plant molecular biologist from Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi - seem to have consented to the move. And some researchers, including Vijay Bhatkar, who developed India's first supercomputer, have publicly backed it.

   "There is no doubt that the move is tantamount to giving [a] certain amount of formal recognition to astrology as a science," said Valangiman Ramamurthi, secretary to the Department of Science and Technology. "I do not want to comment whether it is right or wrong, but if anyone comes to me with a research proposal on astrology we will evaluate it to see if it makes sense scientifically before funding it."