INTERVIEW: Christian Tissier Sensei By Susan Perry de Aikido Today Magazine (ATM) ATM: Sensei, you began to study Aikido in young France when? Sensei: Yes. It was nine years old, and it was practicing Judo. It was quite difficult. After the class of Judo there was one of Aikido - probably three or four people. It had listened that in Aikido was not necessary to be strong; still the small people could demolish to whom they were very strong. Therefore I asked if she could practice. The people of the class of Aikido said "OK". They were contentments to have to a new member. My first teacher was Sensei Tavernier. After two or three months (in 1964, I create), Sensei Nakazono came to Paris and I began to study with him. ATM: Déjeme to see if I can clarify this history. Of that time, Sensei Nakazono was in favor in Paris, and Sensei Tamura in Marseilles? Sensei: First in going to Marseilles it was Sensei Abe. When Sensei Nakazono went to Marseilles, sensei Abe returned to Japan, leaving the Dojo to sensei Nakazono. When wine of Japan Sensei Tamura, Sensei Nakazono left the Dojo to Sensei Tamura and marched to Paris. In France they were simultaneously Sensei Nakazono, Sensei Noro and Sensei Tamura. ATM: I listened of other people who studied with Sensei Nakazono that was very strict. Had you it same impression? Sensei: From my point of view, Sensei Nakazono was very but a very important teacher. Nonmemory if he were strict. Memory that was very charismatic. Sensei Nakazono studied several martial arts, inclusively Judo and Karate. I do not believe that it has studied Aikido during long time, but seemed that O´Sensei had trusted its ability to handle human relations. The Sensei Nakazono was an excellent ambassador of the Aikido. The education of Sensei Nakazono was Aikido half and half spiritual aspects. But when one chooses to study Aikido, this choosing a physical activity. Of another way, one could choose painting or meditation. Initially one must knead the body as a bread, it stops to feel the art. When one is 16 or 17 years old, it is not sufficient to listen that the Aikido is love. That does not mean anything for one. For that reason I went to Japan. ATM: There was much people studying Aikido at that time? Sensei: If. There was much people studying, but they belonged to different groups. Around 800 people it agglutinated the Aikikai, that was associate to Sensei Nakazono and Tamura. That was the French Cultural Association of Aikido (ACFA). And there were a 2000 or 3000 people in the Federation of Judo associated with Sensei Mochizuki. When I was in Japan, around 1975, the groups megred. The Aikikai "I devour" to the others and one became the National Union of Aikido (ONE). ATM: Is the present French organization the ONE? Sensei: No, finally it was divided, and now it does not exist more. In 1981 Aikidokas was suggested them had to leave the Federation of Judo. He was very advisable and comfortable to belong to the Federation of Judo. We could have everything, Dojo, tatami and money. But a small group, headed by Sensei Tamura wanted greater control. Some people thought that the Aikido would be better to exist a Federation of Aikido. Sensei Tamura I ask, "If I leave the Federation of Judo, will follow to me". Initially almost all responded "Yes". It was clear that still before leaving the Federation of Judo it had been decided that was going to be its president, secretary, and others. Half of people was refused to leave the Federation of Judo since the new Federation previously had its organized structure. Therefore there were two federations: the Free French Federation of Aikido (FFLA) and the French Federation of Aikido, Aikibudo and Afines. (FFAAA). From 1981, there have been two great federations in France. These federations have the same size, and jointly they come near the 50,000 medical instructors. We are speaking to form a new federation, and this year we could be together again. In France, the things are different that in the United States: Aikido is regulated by the law. There is a certificate of give and a French diploma of education. In France, the important credential of Aikido is not the certificate of Give of the Aikikai; it is French Diploma. In order to teach, the certificate is needed nidan of the federation of the French government. By a side the adjustment is not bad since we have the control on those who is going to teach. That is the political situation of the French Aikido. ATM: I imagine that many teachers of Aikido of different parts from the world visit France. Sensei: Sensei Saotome visited France. And, every year, our Federation is host of Sensei Endo, Sensei Nishio, and Sensei Yamaguchi. Sensei Waka is coming in January. ATM: The French policy of Aikido seems so complicated and confused as to the one of the United States. Sensei: The situation is quite complex. Sensei Tamura is a personal and permanent member of International Aikido Federation (IAF), established by the Aikikai Hombu Dojo. But the Federation of Sensei Tamura is recognized neither by the Hombu Dojo, nor by the IAF, nor by the European Federation of Aikido. Our federation is recognized by the IAF, that a federation by country only recognizes. Only there are two people in France who can give degrees of the Aikikai: Sensei Tamura and no. For that reason he is very strange that its federation is not in the IAF. It would seem that the IAF does not mean anything. I have a great respect to Sensei Tamura. We are friends. I am not deacuerdo with the position of the Hombu Dojo on its organization. If the Hombu Dojo had to take party by some, I believe that it would have to be by Sensei Tamura because he is a famous one shihan of the Hombu. Despite being contented of which the Hombu Dojo recognizes my federation, encounter very difficult to understand its position. ATM: You said previously that there were conversations to form a new federation that combined the existing ones at the present time. He will take this to clarify the things? Sensei: I think that if we are together we could solve some European problems. In Europe at the moment the Aikikai group is very small. In Germany, for example, there are five or six federations, of which single one belongs to the IAF. The Aikikai group has around 2000 people, which is very little when we thought that there is near 20,000 medical instructors of Aikido in Germany. The same problem in Italy exists. There the Aikikai group has 3000 people, but I number total of medical instructors of aikido is substantially greater. In Spain and England, the Aikikai group is very small. In the past (20 or 30 years back) each national group it had a single professor. When groups of 100 people have themselves, that system is OK. But, when the groups are of 5,000 or 10,000, it is impossible. Everything cannot be had a single teacher controlling what it happens in a country. Some times it seems that the Aikikai does not understand this. If we can solve our problem in France (if we can establish a new dynamic organization) perhaps, we pruned to be from utility to other countries so that they do not continue growing under these present adjustments. ATM: Can the system that is imagining to remain under the Aikikai Hombu Dojo? Sensei: I do not know it exactly. The leader of the Hombu Dojo seems not to know like solving these problems. In the last congress in Tokyo, Sensei Yamada exposed that it was not good for having single an organization credited by country. It knows that in America, there are many and different organizations who do difficult to be able to say "a country, a voice". It is very easy to travel at the moment through Europe. For example, it is possible to be gone from Paris to London in three hours of car. And it is very easy to go from France to Germany. I have about 5,000 students in Germany. But, due to the rules of the Aikikai, I cannot take examinations there. It not to belong to the representative Aikikai of Germany. People must travel from Germany to France to receive the French rank. It is not a good situation. Probably the Hombu Dojo had to allow some people to give to degrees in others piases. ATM: In the United States no teacher unless he will be Japanese is recognized as they shihan, still having reached 6º give. In Europe it happens the same? Sensei: I am recognized as they shihan by the Hombu Dojo, I believe that there is one or they shihan two more French. I have been 6º give by more than 9 years. I gave the degrees of the Aikikai until 5º give and there were no problems. I have a good connection with the Hombu Dojo. When I was in Japan, from 1969 to 1976, it did not think that it could reach 4º give. By that time, the foreigners were practicing for nidan and some times for sandan. Yondan is different because there is no examination. When I obtained my 4º gives I said: "the things are changing". I returned to France in 1976, and in 1980 I received my 5º give directly of the Hombu Dojo. It seemed then to me that the Hombu Dojo was taking a new step. The same year that I received 6º they give, was an encounter of aikidocas in Stockholm. I was not present but many of the Japanese teachers yes. And, of course, a Japanese teacher said, "We needed to have shihan Japanese in France". The French who were there said, "Why we needed its instructors 6º and 7º danes? We have to Christian Tissier that has 6º give of the Hombu Dojo ". Somebody said, "But Tissier is shihan" And Fujita Sensei, that was the Secretary General of the Hombu Dojo said, "If Tissier is 6º gives of the Hombu Dojo, is shihan of the Hombu Dojo". In my opinion, that was another step taken by the Hombu Dojo. Sensei Chiba said to the Hombu Dojo that the Aikido would have to appear again from outside. Probably the foreigners are more faithful to the Hombu Dojo that some of own the Japanese which they live outside Japan. I think that the future of the Aikikai and the Japanese aikido one he is in America and Europe. Young people dream about Japan (with famous teachers) Is almost like magician. Our work is to maintain that dream alive. The work of the Hombu Dojo is to make specific that dream.

ATM: You think that the quality of the instructors of the Hombu Dojo is changing? Sensei: In the past, the Hombu Dojo development very good teachers with very strong characters. Sensei Tada, Sensei Tamura, Sensei Yamada, and others. Somehow, that people constitute one elite. In these days elite does not turn out far from easy the Hombu Dojo to develop one, because it is not easy to attract talented people. Nowadays the Japanese talented young person, can obtain a work, a fiancèe and a car. The quality of life that offers the Hombu Dojo to uchideshi, does not reach that to estandar. For that reason it is easy to see because quality people decide to enter in companies and to go to the Hombu single Dojo to practice. (and one must respect the anger and dedication of those talented ones that they decide to become uchideshi of any way) They would have to say to them to the young people, "If they enter to the Aikido, they will have to happen through a very hard process of selection. They must have a good one aikido, to be intelligent, to have charisma. If they have all those qualities and they become uchideshi, members of one will be elite social ". Probably when he has himself between 22 and 23 years, it is possible to be chosen between being, to say, a doctor or to become a aikido teacher of. But that was not what I felt when I was in Japan years back. The Aikikai was publishing warnings in newspapers looking for uchideshi. They did not think that they needed uchideshi to form one elite. They only needed people to sweep the Dojo. That is the problem. Probably the Aikikai needs a good administrator who takes care of his image, probably somebody other people's one to the aikido one. ATM: You think that the Aikikai will send new shihan of the Hombu Dojo when the old ones shihan that they are outside Japan being retire? Sensei: I do not know that it is what they will do. Probably some shihan of the Hombu Dojo want to go outside Japan. But I have listened that in the State United, for example, some organizations have very good students 5º give. The Hombu Dojo cannot send his outside 8º danes, and, if they send some 6º give, that could suggest the American aikido one is not very good. When 5º or 6º is had students danes, and the Hombu Dojo sends to somebody of similar graduation so that position becomes, that implies that the deficient students are of some way. Of course that the Hombu Dojo will have an important roll that to play in the future of the aikido one outside Japan. There are very good masterful young people in the Hombu Dojo. They are very intelligent, they understand the international situation and they have very good handling of human relations. Its attitude is very different from the old ones shihan. When they travel outside of Japan they do not play being O´sensei. They are very friendly with people, very near. They are not dinosaurios. They have the technical quality much more and. This new generation is going to bring a new dynamism to the aikido one. ATM: How it was Japan when you were to the 18 years? Sensei: When it arrives at Japan, it did not have idea of how it was. Arrive at Yokohama to the 15 hours. Once outside the boat I went immediately to the Hombu Dojo. I concurred to the class of the 7 (I believe that Saotome Sensei was teaching). After the class I slept outside, in a bank. For anybody of 18 years, that was not a problem. On the following day I went to the class of the 6:30 in the morning and saw for the first time to Doshu. It was doing iriminage and, I thought, "This boy is not very good". It was not doing iriminage in the form that was customary to see. That is a great problem in Aikido. When customary one is not seen what this see itself, it thinks that he is bad. During the four or five first months I thought of course that the movements of Doshu were strange, that the practical change my way to think. By those years, 1969, there were not many foreigners in dojo. It was Terry Dobson, Stan Smith and Bud Wheeler. This last one made an impression to me very hard like somebody. Probably by the fact that she was very young I, people did not know me. Of algun way I was very timid, and was to me very difficult to contact to me with the aikido people of. I attended the classes of Doshu every day. He thought that I did not please to him, but in definitive, he also was very timid. A day called to me like uke. Soon during a pair of months it chose me like uke at least once to the week. Soon twice to the week, and finally every day. I became uke of Doshu. ATM: It lived in that then O´Sensei? Sensei: If, but unfortunately I could not know it. ATM: It began to live immediately in the Dojo? It found some department? Sensei: By one week I slept in a comfortable bank of a park. A day the police said to me that it could not sleep alli. It explains to them that it did not have another place where to go. They brought a blanket to me. Soon, the police located to me in a hotel for young people. I was weeks there and soon I tried to obtain a department. Finally I was able to lodge opposite right of the Dojo, in front of the house of Doshu. There I was approximately about six months. ATM: What thought their family about their trip to Japan?

Sensei: I said that I wanted to go to Japan and they said "OK, are no problems". But they did not think that it would do it. I worked all the summer, buys my passage and I was myself. ATM: Who influenced more in Japan? Sensei: I attended the classes of all, and had good relations with many teachers. But Doshu was my main teacher. I liked much and I attended his classes all the days. My sempai was sensei Masuda, Endo and Chihanshi, but in fact they were more friends than masterful. Also I was influenced by Osawa sensei and Yamaguchi Sensei, but it was very difficult to approach this last one. ATM: Porqué? Sensei: I do not know it. But it was very difficult to do it. I think that she was a very special person. He was very human and universal. When it was spoken with him, not yet dominating the language, one forgot per moments that were in front of a Japanese and we understood what said. I knew many teachers in its 25 - 35 years, when they were very, but very strong. When I returned to see ten years later them, some were very rigid and very loose others. Their backs or waists were bad. I said myself, "It is a madness to be strong by about five years and weak soon. The Budo must preserve the life ". At the moment Sensei Yamaguchi is 70 years old. What I like of him is that it enjoys very good health. The people who observe it, still those that are twentyish, say that they would like to move as he does it. Sensei Yamaguchi even so very is controverted. ATM: How he is that? Sensei: Good, some say, "Their technique does not work". But nothing works in Aikido. Nothing. It knows to that I talk about? ATM: No, please explíquelo. Sensei: Yonkyo does not work, and nikkyo does not work unless I him of my arm. It is the message that one removes from the art, not of the technique. Nobody is sufficiently strong.

I believe that a martial art is a system to preserve the life, integrity, the freedom, and the freedom of the people who surround to us. He has to do with living in harmony with the surroundings that surrounds to us and people. Take to Mike Tyson like example. He is very strong, but he was defeated on two ocassions by two women. He is always in the mistaken place and the mistaken moment. The Budo would have to teach to be in the correct place and moment.

ATM: Could you say that Sensei Yamaguchi approaches filosofia of the Aikido? Sensei: No. Sensei Yamaguchi never spoke of philosophy. It will never listen him to talk about to O´Sensei. It will never listen to it speak of Ki or Kokyu. Never speech of philosophy but on principles, on which it is the Aikido, and on the messages of the techniques. ATM: What says Sensei Yamaguchi that is the Aikido? Sensei: It says that the Aikido is the investigation of the perfection ideal on one same one. ATM: Thinks Yamaguchi that the transformation of one same one is part of the idea of the Budo? Sensei: If. I think that Budo (spiritual) is very important for him. I mean "Budo" in a modern form, a system of education with some rules. The rules are very important, but people must discover them by themselves. A good teacher is that that causes that the student discovers the rules necessary to live in harmony with people. A badly masterful one is that that stable rules that do not have sense. In the Budo it would not have sense to continue studying if one always is successful. Therefore, I think that in Budo it is necessary to fall some times and to recognize that one has fallen. The next time, a new opportunity will have to make the things better. In the competitions that new opportunity is not had. When it is lost, it must hope to that there is another championship. But in the training of the Budo, the training of Aikido, are no competitions. A new opportunity is always had. In Aikido always we want to make the movement ideal. Somebody comes with a very formal attack and it is to execute an ideal movement. Of course, it does not leave like the ideal. Then it is again tried to execute the ideal movement, and again we failed. In aikido we tried to make the most beautiful techniques, and failed. Also the intention is to make the technique most perfect. That is what we must remember, but we forgot it with facility. There was called painter Hans Menling who never signed his works. Single it wrote, "Is the best thing of me". I went to a Jesuita school, and every day we had to write in our notebooks "is the best thing of me". I think that in Aikido it is the same: it is necessary to try to put the best thing of one, not it perfection, only the best thing of one. ATM: Is the techniques a toolbox for our transformation? Sensei: Yes, exactly. They are tools. The techniques are the mechanical structure.