Notes: Finnaly worked out the bugs, made 655RWHP on 15PSI of boost. Intake air temps were 145* The whole time!
And it ALL fits under the stock hood!
The project began, 5/1/04.
Here is what's been done since I decided to go Turbocharged. The Turbo Project begins...
the motor was built for boost from the beginning. I picked up the turbos and had
them modified (Td06-17C Syclone turbos MODIFIED INTO TD06-19C Turbos) which is when I decided to go TURBO instead of blown.
The factory Syclone turbo is good for 320 Horsepower Each, But MY turbos are
good up to 380HP Each because of the upgraded compressor wheel. They were fully
re-balanced and the turbine was also replaced, but not upgraded (the factory
turbine 8CM was perfect for my motor combo) The project began, 5/1/04.
Thrust bearings, Big compressors. they have T3 flanges, so this turbo is
commonly referred to as a T3/T4 Hybrid
Here are the intercoolers I got with the turbos. They are cut up from a larger core, likely a Diesel core. they have fins inside and out and are very thick, so I used them. my Manifold air temps DROP during boost, so they must be doing some good!!!!
First thing we need to mount any turbo to a V8, is some manifolds.
I RESEARCHED manifolds for 2 months before deciding to make my own. WHY WHY oh WHY? Well, when doing research I found that mild steel (typical small block header material) will almost ALWAYS warp from the heat of a turbocharger. So mild steel headers / manifolds were out of the question.... which ruled out all DIY header kits, and even tig welded steel headers. The next thing up was stainless, but that would require me buying a different welder, and a ton of bends from a reputable stainless company like BURNS STAINLESS which charges an arm, leg, kidney, and first born son for some of that Stainless material... so SS was out of the question. I did some shopping, on eBay and Banks, for manifolds and what not, and found more interesting news. BANKS makes a manifold kit, but its nearly $1200 just for the manifolds. If you just want one of them, its $600!!! the next thing I found was a few companies making QUALITY TURBO headers from THICK proper material, all TIG welded. one such company is BBS Designs, but guess what? Twin turbo headers, $4500~ NO JOKE!
So i almost gave up. then I found another V8 owner who had used FACTORY manifolds as twin turbo headers! HERE
He used stock L98 CAST STEEL manifolds, and made extensions to mount the turbos around the valve covers. it was SO SIMPLE!
Ok So, I made myself a set of manifolds from Cast L98 manifolds. the material I used was ALL 1/4" thick steel, no chance of warping that thick stuff. The manifolds themselves are 1/4" thick cast, no chance of warping that either. so are the flanges. everything is THICK and STRONG. I used a Nickel/Cast rod, 220,000PSI tensile strength rods (NASA "BLUE" RODS) very expensive but well worth it. the welds came out PERFECT.
SO then I Test fit the turbos to the motor.
Not bad eh? from there it was only a question of me using a welder and some U-bends to run the downpipes and intake pipes. Here are some more pictures.
At some point my welder broke, so I had to finish up with a very crappy 80AMP arc welder, when I should have been using the MIG for all of this. now instead of smooth welds, I had sloppy welds that stick up. Since these pics, I have ground down most of the crap welds, re-welded, and painted it all silver, but it could still be nicer yet if I had a real MIG to finish with.
The oil lines are not pictured here either, the teflon you saw was to ensure that oil actually flowed through the turbo. I switched to braided steel #4 after I made sure oil would flow properly, and before startup, because you can see through Teflon, but not the braided stuff.
Parts I used:
2 turbos, TD06-19C 14cm2 (speed-shop)2 T3 flanges-made myself from 3/8" steel (machine shop)
8 bolts for T3 flanges (ace hardware)
2 Exhaust manifolds, modified for T3 flanges and twin turbos (L98 Corvette, cast STEEL)
12 Exhaust manifold bolts, Grade8 (ace hardware)
(downpipe)
6X studs, with nuts and washers for collector (ace hardware)2X 2.5" collector gasket, copper/aluminum (pep boys)
2X 2.5" collector, steel (local muffler shop)
2X downpipes and exhaust run... (improvise here...) (local muffler shop, 5 Ubends)
I used 2.5" pipe, and U-bends that I cut myself to bend around the various obstacles in the engine bay. closest thing was the master cylinder, I will probably cut a few louvers into the hood to duct air to that location I do not feel that heat shields and header wrap will be enough to keep the brakeing system cool.
(intake pipe)
2X 2.5" steel exhaust tube was used in my application; .085" thick and strong. Could have used aluminum (bling factor) but the price is insane for aluminum ducting, plus there is alot less a chance of blowing up a steel tube, and it wont expand or distort under boost like some plastics. 2X aircleaner still working on this one, most people run cone filters here but I am thinking of something original using the hood as a filter similar to the Ls1 air-lid deal. Wound up using 2X K&N filters, routed away from the turbos with more 2.5" pipe.
(intake stuff)
2X intercoolers (some popular cheap intercoolers are Supra (black) intercoolers, or 1st gen eclipse (DSM) intercoolers (pretty thick and cheap) there are plenty of smaller intercoolers out there for cheap (probe, mazda, jdm) but most are not satisfactory for low-boost high air-flow application (as opposed to high boost low airflow like a small 4 cylinder would use) with a V8 generally you max the airflow capability of those intercoolers really fast (pressure lose occurs) a supra intercooler was the best thing I could find until I stumbled onto some (diesel) which are VERY VERY nice have fins inside and out, very thick cores. the best part was they were already cut up into smaller intercoolers, and the bestest best part was both fit together right in front of my radiator at the perfect angle) In case you didnt know, if you find a large intercooler (ford powerstroke, isuzu diesel, etc...) they are usually very high quality (and expensive..) but the best thing is the cores are huge, you just cut them up (carefully, get someones help here) and when you get them to the size you want (you can easilly make 2 intercoolers from a large one) you have someone TIG weld end tanks onto them (you can use end tanks from any other intercooler, if they are tall enough) and bingo custom intercoolers. 3-6X silicone tube I used a large piece and cut the sized myself (source Ebay) 6-12X clamps for tubes called T-bolt clamps, or you can use hose clamps... (source home depot or ebay)
2X 1G DSM BOV (eclipse style) the first gen are the best, what I used. Dont use anything past the 1st gen eclipse BOV from DSM vehicles, I am told they suck. Here you can also use an expensive BOV like tial or greddy, but IMO its pointless. unless you just wana run 1 big tial of course. a stock eclipse BOV (1Gen of course) will hold 8PSI of boost stock, and if crushed (in a vice, VERY common modification with these) they will hold 18PSI of boost no problem (more than most people would want to run on any V8) and they are pretty large quiet.
2X 1G DSM mounting flanges made myself from 1/4" steel welded directly to intake for the BOV's. again simple, just use some chalk to outline the BOV flange, then cut yourself a piece of steel that size. drill holes where the 2 holes need to be, tap them, and mount your BOV onto the flange. i welded my flanges directly onto the intake pipeing, the other option would be to run a pipe from the intake pipeing to the BOV via a 2nd pipe, this way you can swap around BOV's (but i find that pointless)
2X inlet 2 --> 1 oval tube steel Used a 4" wide exhaust pipe, use vice to Ovalize it. use a vice to ovalize the 2X 2.5" intake tubes, and weld them together. this goes from the intercoolers to the throttle body...
(oiling)
1X #4AN Line from Back of block oil feed, used home depot "Street elbow" to make the T-fitting clear the intake manifold. had to grind back of intake a little bit.1X restrictor in #4 line (like a nitrous jet) to prevent oil pressure from entering turbos, this I didnt do because the turbos already have the restrictors cast into the center sections.
2X #4AN line from T fitting to turbos, Here i felt it important to keep the lines the same length.
2X #10AN oil outlet line from turbo was recommended, I used #8 because it was big enough. a sign #8 is too small will be the turbos start smoking (burning oil because the oil cannot return to the oil pan fast enough) The oil return fittings are brazed directly into the oil pan.
(MISC)
2X checkvalve for brake booster / PCV tube (to prevent boost from entering engine/Bbooster) factory brake booster one-way breather will suffice.2Bar Map sensor
new injectors, im running 38Lb (36PSI) injectors at 50PSI (44Lb injectors)
Things you may have to do to your Thirdgen Camaro to get this to work:
Relocated alternator (converted to V-belts to move it to the pass side)remove A/C compressor / lines (factory serp. setup)
relocate belt tensioner (if you are trying to keep the serp belt, and you remove the A/C compressor, the tensioner must be moved)
relocate coolant overflow box (I didn't do this, it isn't in the way like i thought it would be.)
remove charcoal canister (did this a long time ago)
relocate battery to trunk (again I didn't do this, it wound up not being in the way)
cut up core support for air intake ducting (depending on how you go) I ran both my intercoolers in front of the radiator (twin front mounts) they get air from the sides (pipes from behind headlights, in front of radiator) and feed the intercoolers, from there both intercoolers airflow EXIT upwards towards core support (where the radiator bracket holds the radiator against the core support) I had to cut a hole here big enough for both 2.5" pipes to fit through. from there they bend towards the motor and ovalize to fit inside the 4" tube running to the throttle body.
More Misc. Information I've compiled about turbos in general:
Turbos have exhaust in and out, intake in and out.
Turbos need to be mounted so that oil can enter the top, and exit the bottom. if this means you need to "clock" the turbo, then so be it. most people just dont realize how important it is to have the oil feed in and out setup like that. the oil gets pushed in via oil pressure, but once inside the turbo it no longer has that pressure because the outlet is so large, so if gravity can not pull the oil out of the turbo, it will burn and smoke and possibly blow your turbo. oil not only lubricates the turbo, it cools the turbo. if you run the turbo hard, then stop the oil flow (shut off the vehicle right after) the oil will cook inside the turbo and cake onto the insides and ruin the turbo. yes the turbos get THAT HOT.
For exhaust, its important to realize turbos get SUPER HOT. its not Un-common to see a RED hot glowing manifold / downpipe. most people assume it will get about as hot as typical headers and exhaust... INCORRECT! The hottest parts will be the Manifold, the turbo, the first 6" of downpipe, and any bends in the first 12" of the downpipe. in an IDEAL situation, these area will have a minimum of 3" of air separating them from all other components. however most applications are far from IDEAL, so here are some things to help keep things cool;
Header wrap; wrap up the downpipe in header wrap, it will insulate the turbo (a plus) and keep other things around it cool. make sure the downpipe is thick enough steel to prevent warping, however. hot mild steel warps easy if its thin. heat shields; any kind of aluminum sheet metal, the shiny stuff works best (reflects heat) sometimes you can bundle the sheet aluminum with a fire-retardant material put the heat shields between important things like brake lines, master cylinder, power steering, etc... For example I used a heat shield from the gas tank (goes above exhaust on thirdgens) cut it into smaller pieces and stuck it between the brake lines and the down pipe.
Aluminum heat wrap (like starter heat shields) once again shiny is better. get a starter heat shield and wrap up the master cylinder for example. this stuff can also be wrapped around the compressor side of the turbo. I put the spark plug wire heat shield on all my plug wires, just in case.
heres the deal with ceramic coatings. there are different types of coatings, made from different things. instead of getting detailed with it though, im going to stay simple and point out some important aspects of coatings and turbos. places like JET HOT coat the insides of exhaust when they apply their coatings. well, turbos get SO HOT that the coatings on the insides of your exhaust will typically flake off and get sucked into the turbo at some point, ruining it. If you get your manifold coated, only get the OUTSIDE coated. typically, an outside coating will help insulate the turbo and help it spool quicker, a plus. most people dont realize the benefit of thermal efficiency in a turbocharged motor, you WaNT the heat from the exhaust to STAY in the exhaust, and you want it HOT. the turbos like it. like i said before, header wrap goes a long way with this. ceramic coating of the downpipe is nice too, inside and outside is ok (its after the turbo) so thats a plus.
if you start making modifications to keep the turbo HOTTER, remember the oil will get hotter too. at some point you may want to stick a small oil cooler on there somewhere, or in some cases if the turbo is a "wet" turbo (factory water cooled) hook up the water cooling capability to keep the bearings cool inside the turbo. Its hard to keep the exhaust super hot and the bearings super cool, but if it can be done, you will realize more power and more efficiency. the PROPER way to use an oil cooler, is with a thermostat. sometimes, on a street car that rarelly sees boost, the oil will cool a little too much. this is said to be a BAD THING, although im still unsure why. I suppose colder oil is thicker, raises oil pressure, drains back slower, etc... Im just pointing this stuff out.
most turbos can be "clocked". that is there is usually a bolt or snap ring on the compressor side that can be removed to allow the turbo's compressor housing to rotate. it may be obvious to 99% of the worlds population, but it WAS NOT obvious to me; A thing to watch out for, when you clock the turbo, it may be or get stuck. the compressor WHEEL is VERY delicate, and in some cases the compressor housing comes in contact with it while you re-position the housing. if you have to "force" the housing to get it to move, use a rubber hammer and gently tap the housing. this seemed to generate the best results when I did it. MAKE SURE the housing goes back on straight, turn the compressor wheel with your finger and listen for it rubbing on the housing. if you hear anything scraping / rubbing, re-position the housing. MAKE SURE the snap ring goes back in, all the way around. a little bit of it sticking out is a sign the housing is crooked, and compressor wheel damage will result.
According to what I've heard about ball bearing turbos, the center section of the turbo that houses the ball bearing, is spring loaded on the inside. if you remove the housing, it may become impossible to re-assemble it. just a warning, not sure if its true as I did not have the guts to tear into my turbo's center sections.
make sure the oil can flow freely through the turbo. dont just hook up the oil feed and return, make absolute SURE there are no obstructions inside the turbo.A clogged center section will lead to a blown turo. A note on this, some (almost all factory) turbos have restrictors cast into the center section of the turbo. if you take out any/all fitting on the top of the turbo, and shine a light down there, you may see only a tiny hole for oil to flow through. thats how it SHOULD be! turbos dont like LOTS of oil, only little bits at a time, but a constant steady flow is important. if your turbo doesnt have one of those "restrictors", then hooking it up to the engine's oil feed will surelly result in a blown turbo. if the center section of the turbo ever gets pressurized with oil pressure from the motor, it blows the oil seals out.
"when turbos attack" If you havnt seen the movie clip, or dont know, turbos attack. again, this may be obvious to 99% of the world, but to me, It was NEWS. the compressor wheel spins FAST. at idle it can spin faster than 10,000 RPMS. it also pulls air in, really hard. I felt air coming from the intake of the turbo, my initial reaction was it was blowing air out, that something was wrong with it. when i moved my hand closer, it SUCKED my hand in. lucky it was just idling and my palm was open. there is a video online somewhere of a guy whos finger got chopped off from a turbo attack. he was playing with the throttle and his hand was far away, then suddenly it just sucked so much air it pulled his hand in. the worst part is, it will probably ruin the turbo too. BEWARE these things are 9999X worse than electric fans made of plastic that cool the radiator, and they are ALWAYS spinning while the motor is running.
Everyone knows headers make more power than stock manifolds on any motor that wants to breath and cant. Especially supercharged motors, massive amounts of air to move, headers make it easier. In turbocharged applications, alot of people are finding that this is NOT the case. alot of the "import guys" around here (JDM and DSM) are converting to "log manifolds" and sticking big turbos on the end. even though they just look dumb, and dont look like they would flow crap, they wind up making more power on the motor. I have heard a few reasons, that the exhaust all coming together faster keeps it hotter than increases the thermal efficiency, that the turbo can be mounted closer, that the pressure in the manifold negates the whole theory about air hating cornering, that log manifolds are magical, etc.. But from factual realistic experience I have seen with my own eyes dyno numbers improve with a "log" manifold and a large turbo on a small motor. on a big motor? No dyno numbers yet. My theory is that like boost on the intake side, you wind up with boost on the exhaust side. except its not boost for the intake, its boost for the turbo. pressure in the exhaust probably helps move the turbo faster, sort of like putting your finger over the end of a hose, it probably speeds up exhaust velocity dramatically and spins the turbo quicker, like using a smaller A/R on the turbine I guess. that makes the most sense to me, why waste money on a free flowing turbo header when your going to stick a huge turbo restriction on the end anyways? better to speed the exhaust up before the turbo, and let the turbo make the power, not some free flowing exhaust. ah, but its all idle conjecture. Im hunting for facts now, and ill get back to yeh.
Turbos for dummies:
so you want to turbo charge your small block V8. your not the first one. Im going to tell you right from the beginning, you either better have a LOT of money saved up (probably more than you paid for your thirdgen)... or you better have good fabrication skills, materials, and welders at your disposal. if you cant fabricate, have no welder, and no money, remove the idea of turbocharging your motor from your head all together. most people with decent fabrication skills and a welder still spend close to $3000 on their setups, and wind up wanting bigger turbos and better intercoolers. Im going to try and help you a little so you can get an idea of whats involved with this sort of thing, from MY experience, not something I read somewhere. I did my entire TT setup for under $1000; thats nothing to sneeze at. but like i said before, I own a welder and know how to fabricate to a small extent, and its not pretty or perfect. theres always room for improvment.
you need to find a set of turbos that will meet your needs. How did I do it? Well I started with the typical Ill get turbos from junkyards attitude. I soon realized, im 1 of 9999999 people also looking for junkyard turbos, and most junkyards want massive amounts of $$ for crappy turbos. i changed my mind REAL fast. the best way to find a set of turbos for your application, is patience and communication. I'd be willing to bet, someone in your neighbor hood has a matched set of turbos that would be perfect for you, just collecting dust. the point is, people buy these things ALL the time, then decide they cant afford to finish the project, or lose interest, etc.. and store their crap away for a rainy day. Put ads in the bargain trader, talk to friends, call up speed shops. I found my set of turbos in a hidden speed shop on an un-named street. guy had them sitting in the back, didnt even know what they were, collecting dust. even had a matched set of intercoolers for them. the original owners planned on sticking them on a mopar motor, and by looking at them I could tell they were BIG. I got them, had them re-built the way I wanted, (using actual MATH to determine compressor necessities to feed the motor I was bolting them to) and working around them from there.
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