Simple Song Sets Off Epic Tale (Rowland Salley)

All Things Considered (NPR)
August 20, 1993

NOAH ADAMS, Host: Getting to the bottom of a story of a song.

LINDA WERTHEIMER, Host: In this part of All Things Considered.

ADAMS: Early one summer morning in 1976, Roland Salley wrote a song. He was trying to get over a broken up love affair.

WERTHEIMER: The song was `Killing the Blues,' three verses and a chorus that took 10 minutes to write, but there's nothing simple about a good song.

ADAMS: We'll hear from Shawn Colvin, Chris Smither and from Rolly Salley. His memories of writing `Killing the Blues.'

ROLLY SALLEY: When you get something you really want, and you finally get it, and you go to sleep at night, and you wake up in the morning, and you think, `What was it? There was something special about yesterday.' And then it comes to you, `Ah, yeah, I wrote a song, you know. Let me see how that things sounds,' and you pick up the guitar and it comes back to you, and you've got a good a feeling about it.

[newscast]

ADAMS: I'm Noah Adams.

WERTHEIMER: And I'm Linda Wertheimer, with All Things Considered.

ADAMS: Some stories start right in the middle. Actually, for us, this one started about four years ago here in Studio 5. We were talking with Shawn Colvin, the singer and songwriter.

SHAWN COLVIN: And there's a guy named Rolly Salley, [strums guitar] who is, I think, a great songwriter and one of those people who seems to prefer to remain in the shadows. He's the bass player for Chris Isaak, who is this kind of rock n' roll type guy, and I just saw Rolly recently at this festival in Vermont over the summer. And he writes a couple of songs a year maybe - he's about as prolific as I am - and every time I hear a new song that he wrote, I just think he has something special going. So, this is a song of his called `Killing the Blues,' and John Prine actually recorded it a long time ago, but it still hasn't gotten its due.

[playing guitar and singing]

Leaves were falling just like embers.
Colors red and gold, they set us on fire.
Burning just like moonbeams in our eyes.

Somebody said they saw me swinging the world by the tail.
Bouncing over a white cloud.
Killing the blues.

ADAMS: And then this past month, Chris Smither came by. He has a new CD. Cut number seven is `Killing the Blues.'

CHRIS SMITHER: The first time I ever heard that was Shawn Colvin sang it. I was totally enamored of the song, had no idea where it came from. Turned out that it was written by Rolly Salley. And I was entranced by it.

[singing]

Well, I'm guilty of something that I hope you never do.
'Cause nothing is sadder than losing yourself in love.

Somebody said they saw me and I was swinging the world by the tail.
Bouncing over a white cloud.
I was killing the blues.
Just killing the blues.

ADAMS: A week or so after we interviewed Chris Smither, a package came in the mail. Inside, a tape made from a scratchy record, somebody' s favorite record obviously. The singer is the songwriter, Rolly Salley.

Mr. SALLEY: [singing]

Somebody said they saw me swinging the world by the tail.
Bouncing over a white cloud.
Killing the blues.

ADAMS: Rolly Salley from the album More Music From Mud Acres. Along with the tape, Paul Johnson of Brooklyn sent us a copy of his first novel. It's a mystery story set in upstate New York. The title is Killing the Blues. He was inspired by the song, played it over and over again. It was a sad time writing this novel, and he did it to get over a lost love. Paul Johnson in our New York studio says the song easily brings it all back.

PAUL JOHNSON, Author: When I caught you interviewing Chris Smither, of course, I didn't expect it, but my hair stood on end. It really gives me goosebumps still. It does not wear out, and I'm sure I have heard it a couple of thousand times now.

ADAMS: The phrase now, `I am guilty of something I hope you never do.' I don't know if it's worth trying to figure out what a songwriter means. You know, poets kind of laugh sometimes when you try to finger that.

Mr. JOHNSON: Well, that's the passage I think I do understand, because what he's guilty of is losing himself in a love, and I know just what he's talking about, or I though I did when I was writing from it.

ADAMS: Of course, that's nothing so bad to be guilty about if you actually have lost yourself in a love, given all of that, given it all.

Mr. JOHNSON: Well, I took it to mean losing a sense of who you really are and trying to be somebody you're not, and also, well, in the family therapist sense of fusing with your love object, so you lose your boundaries.

ADAMS: Hmm mm. Hmm mm. Yeah, trying to be somebody you're not in order to please somebody else, make them love you.

Mr. JOHNSON: Right, right, exactly.

ADAMS: So, it's a matter of honesty there, I suppose. What do you think of Rolly Salley's singing on the tape? He sounds a bit untraditional. It's not the normal sort of voice you hear.

Mr. JOHNSON: That's true. I love it, though. I think it's perfect for the song. The only other person I've ever heard that comes close is John Prine, but maybe it's just that I like that kind of voice, I don't know.

ADAMS: What is it that you like about it?

Mr. JOHNSON: I really couldn't tell you that. I really don't know.

ADAMS: You mean it's something that- it's something that you're feeling as much as-

Mr. JOHNSON: Yeah, definitely.

ADAMS: I think it's a kind of courageous performance. I don't mean that I don't think he can sing. I mean that he seems to be taking some chances vocally.

Mr. JOHNSON: Oh yes, yes, definitely, and exposing himself, his feelings, who he really is.

ADAMS: What do you think about music as compared to writing fiction? Do you think- It seems to me you can accomplish a lot in the three minutes and 20 seconds of a song that would be tough to do in, oh, a page of prose or a poem.

Mr. JOHNSON: Absolutely. I mean, if you've got that talent. It takes me at least 20,000 words to say anything I think. That's why I'm a novelist.

ADAMS: Paul Johnson, talking with us from New York City. After that, it seemed appropriate to start looking for Rolly Salley - Roland Salley of San Francisco, bass player with Chris Isaak's band, Silvertone, currently on tour, and in between Atlanta and Austin, a stop in Dallas. Rolly Salley joins us from member station KUT.

Mr. SALLEY: That song, that song came out in about 10 minutes one morning over a cup of coffee. It just seemed like it was working its way to the surface, and there was nothing I could do to stop it.

ADAMS: Wow! Words and music at the same time?

Mr. SALLEY: Yeah, they just- it just fell right out, fell out on the kitchen table.

ADAMS: Do you recall where you were?

Mr. SALLEY: Yeah, I was in a little apartment in Woodstock, New York, a little place, a little section of house that I had rented. It was kind of little two-room apartment up on the side of the road up there, and it was in the summertime. It was July, I think, in 1976. So, that song has been around for a while. And I'd, you know, awakened and made myself one of my famous cups of coffee. And bang! - there the song came. I mean, I was obviously feeling that way when I wrote it, but it was just nothing, you know, nothing that I really tried to do. It just kind of happened.

ADAMS: What do you mean by famous cups of coffee?

Mr. SALLEY: Oh, I had- I don't know where I was - I was somewhere, and I got a cup of coffee that looked more like a small trash can. It was huge. And, you know, I'd heat up the coffee, heat up the milk, pour a bunch of sugar in there, and just set myself on fire, you know.

ADAMS: Uh huh. Some people put in- will order coffee and then put a shot of espresso in the coffee.

Mr. SALLEY: [laughs] Mine didn't even need that. It was all packed in there by design.

ADAMS: Were you in- What sort of mood were you in when you wrote the song?

Mr. SALLEY: Well, I think I was feeling pretty sad, I think, pretty sort of blue. I had a sense of loss over the woman that I had, you know, been with, and I was feeling terrifically sort of blown out by some, you know, these chain of events, and feeling that way, but at the same time, having the other half- Half of me felt that way, and then there was another fraction of me that had a real sense of humor about it. And within that song, I think there was a sense of humor, I think.

ADAMS: Hmm.

Mr. SALLEY: About, you know- Okay, well, just generally speaking, if you break up with somebody and you feel horrible about it, I think it's- I think you're lucky, and I think you ought to try to hold out a sense of, you know, just a sense of adventure and a sense of humor about it, you know. Because every time- well, every time a door closes, many more open.

ADAMS: One would hope.

Mr. SALLEY: Yeah, I think so. I think it's true. I think you just have to keep your eyes open.

ADAMS: The tape that we have that somebody sent - actually, it was Paul Johnson sent this tape - do you recall who is singing harmony? Somebody said- I've played this for a lot of people, and two people said that that's Salley, himself, singing along with his melody.

Mr. SALLEY: No, it's, believe it or not, it's Jack Elliott's ex-wife. Her name is Patty Elliott [sp], and I hadn't even- hadn't thought about that. See, I haven't heard that record myself in a long time. The last time I heard it, you know, it was one of those things where you do something some years back, and some time goes by, and then you hear it again and you go, oh my God, that's awful, you know, and you can barely stand to listen to it. I mean, it's just a- I don' t know it's a- Everybody's their own worst critic. So I hadn't heard it in a while, and you just reminded me of that. It's Patty Elliott. That's Ramblin' Jack Elliott's ex-wife. She was in the studio when we did the sessions, and she jumped in and sang on it.

ADAMS: Have you considered yourself a singer over the years?

Mr. SALLEY: Not really. I sing, but I don't really consider myself a singer, because I- when I open my mouth to sing, I'm never completely sure what's going to happen, never sure if anybody's going to get hurt or not.

ADAMS: Are you talking about intonation?

Mr. SALLEY: Oh, intonation, tone. I tend to have a pretty scratch voice when I sing. I was talking to John Prine one time, and we were going somewhere, and he was talking about his scratchy voice, and I told him, yeah, we both have a scratchy voice because we both have breakfast at the same place, the gravel pit.

ADAMS: [laughs] What do you think of the John Prine version that is included now on his new- on the John Prine anthology?

Mr. SALLEY: I think it's a good version. He did it- he rocked it up. You know, he's got- I think there's a screaming saxophone right out on the end of the song and everything. He changed the arrangement around a little bit. Oh, he's great. I mean, Prine is quite a craftsman. You know, everything he does has that touch. He's great, great songwriter, and I was really, really just felt blessed, you know, that he had done one of my songs. I could barely believe it. [music fades up]

ADAMS: Yeah, Howard Levi [sp] is playing saxophone on that cut.

Mr. SALLEY: Howard Levi, yeah, right.

JOHN PRINE: [singing] Somebody said they saw me swinging the world by the tail. Bouncing over a white cloud. Killing the blues.

ADAMS: How did you feel that morning after you wrote the song? Was the act of putting this down on paper very quickly and having it be a song, this feeling- What does it do for you?

Mr. SALLEY: Well, yeah, you write a song- Okay, for instance, specifically, that song - I remember I wrote it, and I walked away from the table. I went out and did whatever I had to do. I went to the grocery store. I, you know, got some tires put on my car. I, you know, went down to the post office, whatever I was doing. But I had- Then you have a special feeling because it's like a, you know, it's like you've got a little- you've got something under your coat there that's crying, you know, that's like sort of jumping out, `Hey! Hey! Don't forget you've done- you know, there's something special here now.' It's kind of special feeling because something is- something has come in, you know, and you have something laid in there, and you leave it, you leave it for a day or so. And then you pick up the guitar the next day just to see if it feels as good the second day as it did when you first wrote it, or if something's changed somehow about the way you perceive it. And, you know, then three or four days, I think, went by. And I think I even had that song for a few weeks, and I couldn't tell if it was good or not. It seemed special to me, but then you never really know. And so, I played it for someone, and they- they really liked it, and then I started to think that maybe it wasn't a bad song, you know.

ADAMS: Do you have your guitar there with you?

Mr. SALLEY: I have one here. I do. Do you want to hear the song?

ADAMS: Yeah.

Mr. SALLEY: Okay. I will demonstrate what I'm talking about when I'm never really sure what's going to happen when I sing, but we'll do it. What I'm probably going to do here is take these headphones off and just sing it into the room.

ADAMS: That's fine.

Mr. SALLEY: Okay. Here we go.

[playing and singing]

Leaves are falling just like embers.
Then colors red and gold, they set us on fire.
Burning just like a moonbeam in your eyes.
Somebody said they saw me swinging the world by the tail.
Bouncing over a white cloud.
Killing the blues.
Now I am guilty of something I hope you never do.
Because there is nothing sadder than losing yourself in love.
Somebody said they saw me swinging the world by the tail.
Bouncing over a white cloud.
Killing the blues.
For then you ask me just to leave you.
To run out on my own and get what I need to.
You want me to find what I already have.
Somebody said they saw me swinging the world by the tail.
Bouncing over a white cloud.
Killing the blues.
Somebody said they saw me swinging the world by the tail.
Bouncing over a white cloud.
Killing the blues.

ADAMS: That sounded pretty.

Mr. SALLEY: Oh, thanks. I'll tell you one thing that's funny about this song, or that's curious, is that a lot of times I notice, if you are getting sort of strung out over a love affair or something, if you make sort of a big deal out of that, you may be shying away from something in your life that you ought to be doing instead, and particularly, I think it comes down to trying to find out what it is that you really love to do. And although music is one thing for sure that I love to do, it's not enough, and there was something that was lacking. Something that I discovered recently, well, within the last five or six years, was that I really love to paint. And if I had been looking closely at the song, I would have seen a lot of references to color in that song. Red and gold, if you mix those two colors together, it makes orange, and literally, orange kills blue when you put it down on a piece of paper. If you've got something that's too blues, if you put a little bit of orange onto it, it will tone the blues all the way down.

ADAMS: What about the woman in question? Do you ever see her, or can you even recall?

Mr. SALLEY: Oh, certainly, I can recall. I don't see her anymore. It was- we were young. We were very young. It's been a while since we've spoken. I called her a while ago because her son was having a 21st birthday or something. I just wanted to see where he was. Oh no, we're on good terms and all that, you know. Once you know somebody, you always know them, I think.

ADAMS: Roland Salley talked with us from KUT in Austin, Texas. He wrote the song `Killing the Blues.' It appears on the album More Music From Mud Acres.

Ms. COLVIN: [singing]

Somebody said they saw me, and I was swinging the world by the tail.
Bouncing over a white cloud.
Killing the blues.

WERTHEIMER: It's All Things Considered.

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