# ******Carl Sagan

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Posted by OneGlove [OneGlove] on November 18, 1999 at 18:00:40 {KEdmzBXaT6ddh6ih/xtgVOGhhkwG5g}:

In Reply to: *****Carl Sagan posted by DaJahVeu on November 18, 1999 at 16:36:31:

I am very sorry that you were never provided an education that would inform you about evolution. It is the most beautiful and grand view of life possible, all the more so since it is true.

:Where do I get off?? Where do you get off calling it evolving? Tell me, what did YOUR ancestors, the apes evolve from? Give me ONE instance of an ape, or any
other creature evolving into any other species today, just one. Give me one instance of any life form EVOLVING from nothing.

If you knew anything about science, you would know we did not evolve from apes. They are a seperate branch, which spilt off from ours millions of years ago. (Although that is only a short period in evolutionary time.)
Now, what did my ancestors evolve from? That is a seperate question, but very easy to answer.
Over 5 million years ago our line split from the ape line.
The oldest that we can claim for our linage is named Australopithecus afarensis. The famous skeleton Lucy is an example. Lucy was about the size of a modern chimpanzee, her brain was about 450 cc. in volume, just a little bigger than modern chimps. Afarensis is clearly not a chimp however. For one thing it was bipedal. If you have even a shadow of a doubt, we have found its footprints imprinted millions of years ago in volcanic ash at Laetoli. Lucy and company lived between 3 and 4 million years ago.
(If you have read the Creation book, the picture picture of Australopithecus is a forgery. The real skeleton is clearly different. You can find information on that on the web.)
Next in line, between 3 and 2.5 million years old are Australopithecus africanus. They were more lightly built and a bit less apish than afarensis.
About 2.5 million years ago two species of proto-humanity exist side by side. The first is Australopithecus boisei, and the other Homo habilis. The boisei, a robust line of australopithecus, lasted for about 1 million years before dying out. The Homo line led to us.
Homo habilis had a brain size about half our own, but is called "handy man" because it was the first to fashion stone tools.
Next came Homo erectus. It was nearly as tall as we are. Homo erectus was apparently confined to Africa until just under 1 million years ago, when it spread to Europe and Asia. The youngest specimens we have discovered are 300,000 years old. Brain size for erectus was 1000 cc. (we are about 1400) In China, one find of Homo erectus proves that they had fire (Peking Man).
Homo sapiens (that's us) arose between 150,000 and 100,000 years ago. Homo sapiens reached Europe just after 35,000 years ago coinciding with the demise of the Neanderthals.

If that isn't enough proof of something evolving, go to your local library and look up a book about horse evolution. You should find a picture with their skulls all in a row for you to be able to judge for yourself.

As for something evolving from nothing, that just proves that you don't understand evolution. Things always evolve from other living things.
The problem of how the first living organisms got here is completely seperate.

The theory concerning that is abiogenesis. It is by no means as complete a theory as evolution, but it is getting there. Right now it is a matter of choosing which of several possible processes was the correct one. In very condensed form: The basic building blocks of life are amino acids. And guess what! They can be created in the lab in simulations of the primitive atmosphere. These group together into more complex molecules, until finally you get a molecule that replicates itself. This is not nearly as complicated as even our simple bacteria. From these simple replicators natural selection takes over and they get better and better. (Mutations occur all the time. Most mutations are harmful, and kill the replicator. These replicators don't survive. Some mutations are good. These cause the replicator to replicate better. It survives. Eventually you get better replicators) Then it's just a short step to prokaryotes, multi-cellular organisms, and elephants.

:Evolution in itself teaches us that things don't improve over time. Put a brick in your front yard and wait for a building. Tell when you get one, or even an evolution
into two bricks.

This shows complete ignorance of even the basics of the theory of evolution by natural selection. Evolution never makes the prediction that bricks will evolve into buildings. Now maybe if bricks could reproduce...

:What my parents taught an believed has NOTHING to do with what I think and believe.

Nothing? That's a strong statement. I'm sure it had SOMETHING to do with it. My parents have something to do with what I believe, and they believed in God and Creation.

:The fossil records are Darwin's worse enemy. There has NEVER be one instance of any fossil evolving into anything. As a matter of fact, Darwin called this the
missing link. There is no fossil record of any progression of evolution.

You have been lied to. Go to your library. Check out a book.

:OH there is absolutely irrefutable proof for evolution. The fact that it never happens today is one.

You have been lied to again. Check out the link below.

:Sure, mans little finger might have become smaller over time because of lack of use or need, but this in no way changes his species.

What if, instead, you start with an animal that can run. A mutation occurs in one animal, causing the genes that make its legs grow to make them a little longer. This animal survives and gives birth to children. The children are better at surviving because they can run faster. Pretty soon they comprimise the entire gene pool. Now the species as a whole can run faster. Over millions of years you get a new species.

:The tress and plants all produce after their kind, they never evolve into skyscrapers. The animals are all of their original species. A great Dane is huge, but it's still a
DOG; and it will never be anything but.

Trees and plants will never evolve into skyscrappers, that is just stupid. However, they will evolve, and they have evolved in the past. Flowering plants, like trees, are fairly a fairly new addition.

:Now, if you choose to call your ancestors animals, or some slimy single cell amoeba, then that's your prerogative; But, tell me this, where did your single cell slimy
whatever come from?

It's not what I choose. It's what the evidence points to. As for where to first creature came from, that belongs to abiogenesis which I have discussed.

:Man can never create anything without The use of what has already been created.FACT...

Oh, I don't know. We are the only ones to have built a rocket that travels to the moon. There are no examples of rockets or jet engines in nature.

:One more thing if you please, when you tell me how one of your parents evolved from a lower form of life, would you please tell me how the other did? It took two
you know. Would you please tell me how they evolved so inticately before they died to produce you?

I have already explained human evolution. What is that "before they died to produce you" about? My parents are both alive.

If you are interested in curing your ignorance, look up this web site:
www.talkorigins.org

--OneGlove

- Observed Instances of Speciation

Follow Ups:

- *******Carl Sagan DaJahVeu 18:49:29 11/18/99 (2)
  - ********Carl Sagan OneGlove 19:23:55 11/18/99 (0)
  - ********Carl Sagan barJonah 18:56:17 11/18/99 (0)

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