Posted by Tantalus [Tantalus] on November 15, 1999 at 20:52:48 {AS5l1tybL65mhrmu9.YkAJToxO4pJo}:
In Reply to: To Tantalus posted by Cheeky on November 15, 1999 at 08:51:29:
Hi Cheeky,
Thanks for responding to my post. As you suggested that I tell you what I was referring to, I will. It has been my experience in regards to my own views and those of others I have talked to that most Witnesses don't have a clear view of what they believe in regards to who stands between them and God. Who is their mediator. I always thought it was Jesus Christ, I still do, but was real surprised to learn the Society says that isn't so. I don't intend to quote a whole lot of stuff here, but have to quote some to get the point across. First, listen to this view of the Society in regards to having your sins cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ:
w73 4/1 A Special Invitation to You p. 198-9 :.........
Jesus Christ is Mediator of this covenant. The apostle Paul writes: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all." (1 Tim. 2:5, 6) The shedding of his blood was necessary, because those taken into the new covenant are sinners, having inherited sin and imperfection from Adam. (Rom. 5:12) Christ’s ransom sacrifice bought back all human life rights and is the basis for forgiveness of sins. Jesus "suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every man," says the apostle. (Heb. 2:9) Thus God can deal with those in the new covenant as righteous persons.—Rom. 3:23, 24; 8:1.
Now that is how I always viewed it and how I thought the Organization saw it, Jesus' blood buying all of mankind into the New Covenant, paying for the inherited sin and imperfections of Adamic sin. Jesus tasted death for every man so we could be clean in Jehovah's eyes. Well, they do believe what they say above, but believe it only applies to the 144,000. Notice the quote of 1 Tim: 2: 5-6? Look at the way they turn it around by inserting brackets in this quote from a qfr in this wt.
w79 11/15 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Man" p. 26
20 What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.
They put in rather lengthy paragraphs before and after this, but none of it explains away the fact that they are reversing the meaning of the verse when trying to explain it by putting in brackets [not, all men] which reverses it. Also, they make it clear that the sins of the 144,000 are paid for by the blood of Christ, as he pays his blood to bring them into the New Covenant, but they tell you that you are not a part of the New Covenant. So how are your sins paid for??? I don't know. The answers get real wordy, and when you look up the scriptures they don't shed any light on it. Please take the time to read and think about this one, look at the scriptures from the "other five times the term is used" and see if it seems to indicate that Jesus couldn't be the mediator for all men because of the way they were used.
w79 4/1 Questions from Readers :
Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians?
The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.
Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant" between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians.
Their phrase "So in this strict Biblical sense" is unsupported as best I can tell from the examples they gave. I don't want to make this too terribly lengthy but I think I will put those verses here for your convenience:
(Hebrews 8:6) But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises
(Hebrews 9:15) So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance
(Hebrews 12:24) and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s [blood].
Gal. 3:19 Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one
Did those verses change your view of what a mediator is, or seem to limit Christ's role as Mediator of the New Covenant? What really bothers me is that if you aren't benefiting from the shed blood that purchases the New Covenant then your sins are not forgiven. They tell you they are, but don't explain how. This continues from before where I stopped to put in the verses, out of the same Wt.:
"The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge."
They say that by "associating with the little flock of those in the covenant" that all of us will "come under benefits that flow from that New Covenant." Exactly how does that "flow" happen? No blood involved? No Mediator? Hmmm, if we get the benefits then aren't we in it? If Chist will be our King, High Priest and Judge, then why aren't we in it? Those are the same things He is to them, except for mediator. It is confusing to me just how these benefits could flow unless Christ is acting as our mediator too. As the verse in 1 Tim. 2:5-6 says, he is the mediator for all men. They don't GET to add brackets, I don't believe.
I think they got it right in this description:
Rbi8 7D "Covenant" Used in the Ancient Hebrew Sense p. 1585 :
"Therefore, in Heb 9:16, 17, the Greek word di·a·the'ke has the same meaning as in the surrounding verses, namely, "covenant," corresponding to the Hebrew word berith'. These verses are imbedded in the apostle’s discussion of the Mosaic Law covenant as compared with its antitype, the new covenant. Paul speaks of the mediator (covenanter) dying in order for the covenant to become legal and binding. In the case of the Law covenant, the animal victims took the place of Moses, the mediator (covenanter) of the Law covenant, their blood substituting for his in legalizing and making the covenant operative. Correspondingly, in the case of the new covenant, Jesus Christ, the mediator (covenanter) of the new covenant, actually gave his perfect human life in sacrifice. When he shed his blood in death, the new covenant was validated."
His blood validates the covenant. Also, if there was a covenant of Law ( Mediator-Moses and animal sacrifices) and a New Covenant (Mediator-Jesus and his once and only once perfect sacrifice) and you aren't in either then how could you benefit. You have no mediator, no sacrifice really. Without Christ as your mediator, you stand alone and no man or woman can stand on his own as we are all born in sin. Not trying to run it in the ground, but when describing THEIR relationship as they see it and the participation of the self-professed annointed, they get almost eloquent:
w84 9/1 Lining Up With "Jehovah's Mind" as Now Revealed p. 13-14 :
"The Ten Commandments and all the other associated laws of the covenant mediated by the imperfect man Moses were recorded on manuscripts but did not really get inscribed on the hearts and minds of the circumcised fleshly Jews, or Israelites. Noting that failing with respect to the Mosaic Law covenant, Jehovah God foretold the making of a new covenant by means of the prophet Jeremiah, as recorded at Jeremiah 31:31-34.
2 Jesus Christ sealed that promised "new covenant" with his own lifeblood when he died with a broken heart on the torture stake outside Jerusalem. The night before, when celebrating his last Passover supper with his faithful apostles in obedience to the Mosaic Law covenant, Jesus passed the cup of wine to them and gave a new significance to it by saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf." (Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26) In this way he became the Mediator of that new covenant, which proved to be a "better covenant" than the Mosaic Law covenant. (Hebrews 8:6; 9:11-28) So ever since he presented the value of his perfect lifeblood in heaven in 33 C.E. he has served as the Mediator for those disciples whom Jehovah God brings into the new covenant.—1 Timothy 2:5, 6."
I have gone on longer and quoted more than I intended to. Sorry, the end is near. This is discussing how the "other sheep" those with an earthly hope, wash their robes in the blood of the lamb. I say it is for remission of sins from the only Mediator between God and Man, the same one who gave himself a ransom for All.
Jesus, the Fine Shepherd, foretold that this would not be the case, for he went on to say: "And they will become one flock." (John 10:16) We notice that he did not say, "One flock in one fold." But though there might be separate folds, there was to be only "one shepherd," and this one proves to be the Shepherd-King who has been reigning in the heavens since the close of the Gentile Times in 1914"
I can't help but be amazed at how glibly they insert opinions and glorify themselves. Notice they are the "Royal Sheep" in the new convenat fold? And in the end, when Christ said they will be one flock (I believe meaning the gentiles and jews) they throw in that he didn't say one flock in one fold, so therefor it is Ok for us to throw that in. While we are throwing lets just put in that there are seprate folds with one shepherd. They don't mind stretching a little, with no foundation laid.
Well, Cheeky, you wouldn't believe all the stuff I didn't put in and wanted to. Sorry it was so long. Back to my first question, who do you see as being your mediator?
Tantalus