Posted by Bibleman [Bibleman] on November 13, 1999 at 19:39:56 {OA5YBxH8IAMRXA6xmpscslyACFuF8c}:
In Reply to: *******Jesus' Resurrection posted by Lobo on November 13, 1999 at 12:51:55:
I stand corrected on the minutiae not relevant to my original post.
Okay. Progress is being made! These details are critical since if you don't have the right timing then it will add up to error down the road. So this is good you're on board with the rest of us now as far as the hours are concerned. That's great.
Still, I want you to quote reputable scholarly sources that do not agree with the NIV and NRSB when the Bible claims that:
Jesus was crucified the same day at :
Mark 15:25: 3rd hour (9AM)
John 19:14: After the 6th hour (Afternoon)
Your opinions do not count as “reputable scholarly sources” by the way.
Sorry, but I'm a Biblical "critic" so it's my job to analyze and assimilate information and then present that data, and if errors are found in the scholarly works, which is usually the case, then I "criticize" that work. It is up to the reader of the criticism to check out the details and then render his own opinion.
Anyway, your argument as far as Jesus dying on Friday, Nisan 14th, the same day he was arrested and ate the Last Supper is a moot point. That's because that dating is only a popular OPINION.
As you will note from the quote below from the Encyclopaedia Britannica which basically summarizes the chronology problem of exactly what happened during Jesus' last week, it clearly states that the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) say one thing but John says another. The Synoptic Gospels all establish that Jesus ate the Last Supper at the usual time of the customary Seder meal which is on Nisan 15th. But because of conflict with John 19:14 and other scriptures which show Jesus died on a day of preparation, they have decided the Synoptic Gospels are in error and have opted to create a pre-Passover meal on the day before the usual Passover-Seder so that Jesus dies on Nisan 14th. Of course, Nisan 15th, as we know, is a sabbath day so Jesus could not have been killed on Nisan 15th.
Therefore, I don't have to come up with any scholarly dismissal of the Friday, Nisan 14th reference since the "scholars" already admit there are two versions coming from the gospels themselves. So the NIV and the RSV just reflect their choice to go with John 19:14 which has Jesus dying on Nisan 14th rather than the Synoptic Gospels which they plainly admit establish Jesus ate the Last Supper on Nisan 15th and thus would have been arrested on Nisan 15th.
I choose the latter and agree with the Synoptic Gospels, since three books outweighs one book, and thus believe that Jesus, indeed, ate the Last Supper on Nisan 15th and thus was arrested on Nisan 15th, a sabbath day.
Here's your scholarly quote that gives you your choice of dates for the Last Supper:
Quote regarding THE SUFFERING AND DEATH OF JESUS IN JERUSALEM from
people of Israel gathered there to a final decision in view of the dawning Kingdom of God. He must have been aware of the heavy conflicts with the Jewish rulers that lay ahead of him. the story of the cleansing of the Temple, in particular, shows that Jesus did not avoid these conflicts. The later tradition, stylizing the story, gives as Jesus' sole motive for going to Jerusalem his desire to die there and to rise again in accordance with the will of God (Mark 8:31; 9:31; 1032ff.). The best clue for a reconstruction of the outward course of Jesus' Passion is given by his Crucifixion. It proves that he was condemned and executed under Roman law as a political rebel. All reports agree that he died on Friday (Mark 15:42;Matt. 27:62; Luke 23:54, John 19:31) They differ, however, in that, according to the Synoptics, this was the 15th of Nisan (March/Ap;ril);i.e. the first day of the Passover. But according to John, it was the previous day; i.e. the one on which the passover lambs were slaughtered and on which the festival was begun in the evening (in accordance with the Jewish division of days) with a common meal. Thus, according to John, Jesus' last meal with the disciples was not itself a Passover meal but took place earlier. Each of these datings may be theologically motivated, whether it be that the Eucharist is to be presented as the Passover meal (Synoptics) or whether Jesus himself is to be shown as the true Passover lamb, who died at the hour when the lambs were slaughtered (John). Historically, the Johannine dating is to be preferred, and the 14th Nisan (April 7) is to be regarded as the day of Jesus' death. The question of the occasion of Jesus' execution and the role that the Jews played is thereby more difficult and more important." |
So each Christian has a choice. To go with the Synoptic gospels for Jesus' arrest on Nisan 15th, a sabbath day, which I do.
Or to go with Nisan 14th, as John 19:14 suggests Jesus ate a pre-passover meal as do these scholars, although, the reference to "preparation for passover" can refer to either Nisan 14 or Nisan 20th. So you do have that third choice as well. But the scholars have chosen Nisan 14th which is their choice.
I'm happy with my choice.
Cheers,
Bibleman