Posted by Shelby [Shelby] on November 13, 1999 at 18:44:30 {OA5YBxH8IAqhSrsXV9ncG6V9RprRZs}:
Friend,
Well, we've sang our little song, we've danced our little dance - let's just barge right into this thing and figure it out.
Topic at hand: the 'signs' as described by Jesus.
Assumption: There is a God, Jesus existed and certain ancient manuscripts are a relevant reference to the story of both.
We have been discussing what the signs are refering to in Matt. 24. Prior to that I had asked a question concerning the flight or where and why the christians would 'flee' in some future tribulation. Let me try to summurize your beliefs as I have understood them in our posts and from examining some of your other posts over the past year or so. When I give a message number it is from here on H2O, the computer whizzes on this board can pop these up with no sweat.
Concerning the 'fleeing' or flight you said (186205) "I do not believe those texts have any significance today beyond historical value."
Also in the same message you mention"that amounts to continuity of expression indicating that there will also BE A FUTURE GREAT TRIBULATION aside from that of 70 AD.
Then in message 108401 you say "I don't know about increased earthquakes and pestilence but I agree Jesus' sign had a first century fulfillment before, and at, the destruction of Jerusalem.
So to summarize the summar-ization I get this.
The signs Jesus talked about were about the destruction, but they also apply to the to the end of the 'system of things' because there's ANOTHER great tribulation coming BUT it's different because this time there is no need to flee anywhere, that is just history, and Jesus was just mistaken when he said only one tribulation. Like what does He know?
I realize that's a simplified and rather cruel summary, but I'm sure you see how I arrive at it and I hope you understand why I really like my idea better.
The Signs.......
Matthew 24:3 You have it memorized, so do I. (except your bible may say 'system of things' and this time it can't mean Catholic church and Bill Clinton)
Mark 13:4 Tell us when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?
Luke 21:7 Teacher, they asked, when will these things happen? and what will be the sign that they are about to take place?
Two out of three never said diddley about the end of anything or any coming, yet the answer Jesus gave was recorded the same.
Throughout your posts to me you insisted WE had to know the motivation of the person asking the question. Not true. YOU might, but I don,t. When I read that I pictured little Johnnie in his first math test saying "Miss Prickley, what motivates you to ask me what 2 plus 2 is? No, I don't think so, Tim!.
I know you would like to get some connection going between the 'coming' of Jesus and the wishes of his followers to know about some "earthly kingdom.' That way you can adjust the meaning of the question asked. Sorry , it ain't there as I see it. I read 3 really cloudy references you gave in one post saying the deciples were just chomping at the bit to see this earthly kingdom, but you ignore the 32 times in Matthew alone where Jesus talks to them about the HEAVENLY KINGDOM. I see a handful of scripture in the entire bible that if you really use your imagination you could argue the earthly kingdom thing.
Two of the questions asked concerning the signs are crystal clear as they refer to destruction, period. Remember Matthew wrote this many years later and he did have the advantage of hearing the answer before he wrote his report. Is that why his question is different- who knows?
Oh, and just one thing as to why the deciples might understand that Jesus would come on or near the destruction of Jerusalem and why they would understand the "this generation" statement at Matt.24:34 is because He had told them once before. Matthew 16:28
So in answer to your question " what does the destruction have to do with Christ's coming?" According to what Jesus himself said it's part of the same event. Any Baptist minister, Lutheran pastor or Catholic priest,etc could describe this in a less verbally clumsy way.
Clear as mud?
Shelby