# New Systen Logistics(witnet)

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Posted by Sargon [SARGON] on November 14, 1999 at 11:27:43 {fiuUEQ5dxU5hUp.TzJ2orVh5vx8UcU}:

Here's an interesting thread from witnet. It's hard to
imagine living so disassociated from reality.

Big Ray
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posted 10-12-99 04:23 AM EST (US)
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Here we go...
What do you think will be the first thing that will need to be done after Armaggedon, besides a very long prayer and a lot of sleep...?

Logic says a head count. We gather at our respective halls and write down all info... if we still have communications at the time, we phone or fax it in to headquarters... well we still have to have some sort of organization! Heads of Household need to be determined...skills need to be assessed.... etc.

(personal speculation)I don't think that there will be a lot of property destruction like we may be used to seeing in wartime... really, it's not technology or material things that are wicked... it's the people that used them for a wicked purpose that need to be destroyed... Besides, if we have a scorched earth, or flooded earth, or windswept earth, how will us meek feel about inheriting it? The more I think about the destruction of this system, the less I see toppled buildings, gaping fissures, and "Meteors from the sky" type destruction.... more of the "Avenging Angel" type destruction... more discriminate, but horrifying nonetheless... They WILL know, that it is Jehovah who is God...

Of course, Jehovah can destroy this system however he sees fit... I just hope that I'm not on the receiving end! 0.o

Another point of logic...
Tony touched on this in another thread, if it exists now and we benefit from it by using it to accomplish a task, then it would stands to reason that it will make it into the new system...
Think about all of the treasures of stuff in these houses that we don't know about now.... art, hand made furniture, jewelry... well, those destroyed won't need it! 0.0
So why not catalog this stuff, store it in a warehouse, or use it in our own homes, and whatever needs to be distributed to the resurrected, goes to them... It will take years, decades perhaps, to catalog and remove all that remains in these houses that don't get destroyed... but it will be enjoyable work...

I have a few more thoughts, believe me, but I want to be able to let y'all get a word in edgewise...

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BigOl'Ray
"...the man of thinking abilities is hated."--Prov.14:17b

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tonywilliams
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posted 10-12-99 12:24 PM EST (US)
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I think that clearage will be an immediate necessity. There may be little or no damage at all for all we know, but skyscapers and the like would probably serve no useful purpose and would likely need demolishing. Existing structures would be either removed, remodeled or refurbished, and in time, the whole landscape would be remade into something reflecting the new theocratic culture.

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Willaby
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posted 10-12-99 01:06 PM EST (US)
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I remember reading a piece of fiction written about the first day of the new system ("Day One" - I am sure most have read it,) and thinking, 'Hello! Reality check!' While the unbridled joy and gratefulness expressed will no doubt be there, the circumstances and setting fill be far different. We will have one of the greatest projects ahead of us after Armageddon and I truly hope this is impressed upon us more and more as we near that time. I think that will also be a test to us - who is really there to serve no matter what. So, here are some of my takes on the logistics.
1) Damage. While I like the Big Ray's idea, I don't think we will have 'selective destruction' with regards to buildings. While it is obvious that angels will kill wicked ones, they will also be needed to handle Satan and his 'boys' and protect us; thus, they won't be all available for the slaughter. The Bible also says that natural forces will be at work. While the idea of 'wicked-seeking hail' is interesting, it is unlikely. Also, many will try to hide, so it will be necessary to destroy the buildings in which they will cower. Think about it, too; Noah and his family started again with only 8 people and virtually nothing. We should be okay with 3 million+ and only 10% of all structures remaining.

2) Power. Well, this one is an interesting one. It's obvious we won't have electricity for a long time. Not only are there very few brothers and sisters in power plant management to take over, the amount of work required to run it would be counterproductive with so few people at the beginning. Plus, the fuel source, in most cases, is a severe pollutant. I imagine in addition to the cleanup, there will be a lot of R&D in the first few decades to find the right way to provide power (having Einstein resurrected would help.. hehe.) So, as one CO once said, know how to make a fire

3) Headcount and communication. Thank goodness a lot of friends took up ham radio at some point. That will make communication somewhat easier. I imagine the organizing of us will be easy, especially if the angels are directly involved.

4) The spoils of war. Cultural artifacts might be preserved. I could imagine disassembling a lot of jewelry for the rubies and diamonds, since they can be used in tools and manufacturing. However, I have a feeling in many cases it will be as it was in Jericho.. take nothing from among them, but destroy it all.

The nice thing about this.. even with such hardships, it won't be hard. We will have Jah's full support and his heavenly host. And we have a thousand years to work until the final test. That is plenty of time to iron out the rough spots.

(As far as R&D goes, I only wish I had the mechanical mind to do it. For someone who marvels at electromagnetic transmittance/reception/recording and barely understands its physics, the idea of building a compact hydrogen/solar fuel cell is out of reach Guess I will just have to garden and design buildings)

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Matt Child
North Lakeland Espaņol
-------------------------------------------------------Arnell

posted 10-13-99 12:25 AM EST (US)
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I think we're going to have a lot of dirty work ahead of us. There will be a lot of bodies to dispose of, after all. That will probably be our number one priority.
It's a wonderful thing that Jehovah made organic matter in the way that he did. It's unpleasant, but think of the fertilizer/compost all this will provide. Jehovah can make even beautiful flowers out of the corpses of Satan's disciples.

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Big Ray
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posted 10-13-99 01:18 AM EST (US)
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A little grim, but agreed, Arnell...
I just thought that maybe we can avoid all that and let the birds take care of that... not the most pleasant thing about the new world... but I wil term that a wait and see... as with everything else I have said on this thread, y'all... this is not doctrine at all... just a little brain pull-up...

Jane...
I like you, too... but it is unwise to argue with the Big Ray... I don't even argue with my wife... I keep quiet until she realizes that I was right all along! (Big Ray ducks and covers) No, I understand that we all have our own ideas, and as long as we make sure that we respect others ideas, then this thread--this FORUM, will have served it's purpose...

I will offer this compromise, however, Jane... remember in my earlier post in this thread about buildings by design, some low-tech, some high-tech? Well, your Solomon's temple can be arranged... why not? There is enough room for variety in Paradise, and it would be a profound history lesson to see buildings like this and then also have the type of people that lived during that time period there as guides! It's possible, yes! So yeah... built from scratch, yes... any new buildings would have to be made from scratch... using the materials that could be recycled from the old buildings...

Ok, here's another thought...
After Armageddon, there will be a shortage of people on the earth definitely...
Do we resurrect the help, or have lots of babies and grow a workforce? I lean towards grow a workforce... but what do y'all think?

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BigOl'Ray
"...the man of thinking abilities is hated."--Prov.14:17b

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Big Ray
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posted 10-13-99 04:20 AM EST (US)
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I like that reasoning...
A recent study article mentioned that we would need to bring paradise into place to a degree before the resurrection of the UNRIGHTEOUS... the righteous, the article mentioned, could possibly be resurrected not long after Armageddon and have the joy of seeing Jehovah's sovereignty vindicated...as well as help with the work...

Big Ray has been thinking again...
So, if the righteous are resurrected not long after Armaggedon, that would be perhaps an additional 5 to 7 million people...to the possible 7 to 10 million survivors... For simplicity's sake, lets say, 20 million...

Head count, assess skills, training in other skills, record of current address of all survivors and resurrected ones, organize the cataloging work, this right here would use up a number of years...but twenty years will seem like nothing to us... besides, we'll have a millenium! Yeah, we'll learn quickly, but logic says that training to do the job comes first in order to be the most efficient... I'm going to leave it at that simple explanation, for the deep stuff really needs to be written elsewhere, not on the DB...

Take 3 million couples and average out 8 to 10 kids per couple...Reasoning- WE CAN AFFORD KIDS THEN! Say 10...(my wife yells at me "What!??") 30 million kids... avg 5 girls/5 boys and you get an additional 15 million couples in 20-25 years. Do the math all over again with the 15 Million... In less than a century, it is possible to have more than the population of the US, just from 3 million couples... No need to rush things... for it will all get done... besides, do yiou really think that Jehovah would create us with reproductive organs to NOT have them productive in the new world? It doesn't make sense to fill the world with people who didn't put faith in Jehovah without blessing those who did...So it looks like a baby boom for sure!

The Insight Book makes mention that if the resurrection occured after say 100 years after training and subduing a portion of the earth and just 3% of the estimated 20 Billion that have ever lived are resurrected each year, and each year increase the nuber resurrected by 3%, then the job would get done within 300 years and still have time to train them well and not disrupt the peace...
I have to agree with this logic... Obviously we would need time to prepare for their return, and many things will need to be done beforehand... A 100 years is still a short time compared to forever...

I look forward to it...

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BigOl'Ray
"...the man of thinking abilities is hated."--Prov.14:17b
Check out what I have been doing outside of www.airbrushonline.com --
www.infonetwichita.com

a gentle soul
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posted 10-13-99 11:04 AM EST (US)
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This is a fantastic thread and some truly inspiring personal concepts and ideas! Gives ya something to really think about.
I hope I'm blest enough to be allowed to survive Jehovah's day of vengence, cause I love to see what it turns out to be like. I also tend to agree with Willaby. There may be some amount of damage to buildings where those who are slated for destructions will probably be hiding. Thus I suspect we'll be in a cleanup mode immediately following Armaggedon. I wonder though, if we're restoring the earth, where's all these chuncks of destroy concrete and stuff that we don't need being put...? Another landfill somewhere - or maybe even the abyss. A nice "going away present" for satin and his buddies don't you think?!? (tee! hee! hee!) Can't you see it: "Here satin, you just HAD to have this stuff in the old system, so now you can keep it for all eternity!" (ha! ha! ha!) Is it true that he'll be able to see us from the abyss for that 1,000 years, while we restore the earth to paradise conditions? Any thoughts?

As for the artifacts and "treasures" of this system, I tend to agree with the "...Jericho Theory..." - I bet we'll be instructed to take nothing from among them, but destroy most if not all of those spoils of war. In reality, most of that stuff represents this old system of things, and if we are going to be given the privelege of forgetting the former things - I don't think I'd want to remember the way it used to be anyway. In my feeble human condition I might start to reminsce about "the way it used to be" or even "remember when..." and that could be all the ammunition satin might need after he's released (following Jesus' 1,000 year reign), to tempt some of us. I wouldn't want that jeopardize my spirituality or residency in paradise.

On a personal level, I'm an artist and I'd like to think that since we may need to destroy the old artifacts - maybe I could be one of the fortunate who would be taught the deeper things of Jehovah in the realm of "creating new art". Doesn't the bible say something about man's knowledge is foolishness to God (MY WORDS). I'd loved to be used as an artist by Jehovah in the new system and learn from Him!

As for the power situation, I too have wondered about that. I remember reading in an old WTwr or A! magazine that Jehovah's throne would be the light or source of energy (MY WORDS). Which if I remember it correctly would mean we probably wouldn't need our current fuel sources (coal/gas/etc) to run our power/electric/electronic things. That certainly could be the solution to all the residue left behind (pollution/ozone problems/etc) when using natural fuel sources. What a clean and efficient source that would be for all our power needs.

And since the animals will no longer be afraid of us, I believe they'll help clean up the earth too. If you've ever watched the way animals do their housekeeping in this system, it seems logical that they'd be able handle such an assignment in the future. What better way to take care of the remains of those who don't survive Jehovah's Day! Sounds yucky but rather practical - I guess every little bit of effort helps! :>

Boy, as I look around this system today and dream of the possibilites that await His loyal servants - I can't wait until we get to paradise!

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...man and beast, living in peace, cause no harm to each other...

CoolWater
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posted 10-13-99 05:05 PM EST (US)
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20 billion? Hmmmmmm......hadn't thought about that amount of resurrected souls. What with the baby boom being postulated, seems the Earth will get filled pretty quickly. Anyone thought about the idea of colonizing other inhabitable planets?
Much of the Earth needs to remain uninhabited in order to self-maintain. Can't pack too many in

Big Ray
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posted 10-14-99 02:07 AM EST (US)
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The Insight Book mentioned that if half of the earth's land mass was set aside for animal habitats and natural ecosystem, we would still be able to pack in 20 Billion comfortably...
I have thought about how to handle the eventual population of the earth, and the thing about all of the planning yet to be done, is that you must take into account, not the few million Armaggedon survivors, but the billions on the earth at the end of the millenium... Therefore, while it is possible to have relatively short term projects-- buildings and procedures that serve an immedite purpose for a couple hundred years, there must always be the common goal, that of preparing the parts of the earth that will be inhabited by 20 some-odd billion humans or more... for the rest of the millenium and beyond.

As far as space colonization... I will quote a certain Dr. Arroway...
"If not, then it would seem like an awful waste of space."

Priority now? Nope. But we look forward to it, and anything that you can look forward to is something worth thinking about....
That's the Big Ray Thought of the Day!

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BigOl'Ray
"...the man of thinking abilities is hated."--Prov.14:17b
Check out what I have been doing outside of www.airbrushonline.com --
www.infonetwichita.com

Bro Racer
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posted 10-14-99 09:05 AM EST (US)
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And for the Star Wars fans, and those who want to see what humans might be capable of, there's another way to fit even more people on the Earth: Remember Bespin, the cloud city? Now tell me that wouldn't be cool...
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Anyone want to race on the road to life? BroRacer@email.com

Big Ray
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posted 10-14-99 11:11 AM EST (US)
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It's possible, if we ever get that gravity question answered.... and then be able to control it to where it doesn't shoot into space or crash to the ground....
That's a toughie....

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BigOl'Ray
"...the man of thinking abilities is hated."--Prov.14:17b
Check out what I have been doing outside of www.airbrushonline.com --
www.infonetwichita.com

Tim Sampson
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posted 10-14-99 11:29 AM EST (US)
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I love these kinds of discussions! This is great! All good ideas above.
About the closest thing I've come to Armaggedon is Hurricane Andrew here in South Miami-Dade county...a storm that was quite devestating to a very densly populated area. It seemed that just about everything had been leveled. I often think that post-Armaggedon, things will be handled similarly...you know the Society is getting good practice for it with all the natural disasters that happen each week around the world.

The focus by the local brothers was directed at us by the Society and the RBC while we were still under a hurricane watch, so that immediately afterwards we would know what to do.

The immediate effort was to account for all the friends and their families. A task that took each BS conductor 2 to 3 days to do. Within 36 hours we had been personally visited by our BS conductor and told to go to the KH ASAP. Upon arrival we "signed in," reported our damages, received medical attention, and were given work assignments...if able and willing (everyone was).

The entire experience, though dreadfully difficult, was faith strengthening! To see Jehovah's earthly organization move forward fluidly and orderly was clear evidence of divine inspiration.

Just some things to think about in terms of this thread...we can be sure we will never be alone in the aftermath.
tonywilliams
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posted 10-14-99 11:58 AM EST (US)
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Lets not forget that 3/4 of the earth is water, and science knows less about our seas than it knows about space. Underwater cities alone would hold 20 billion people quite easily.
I think if space travel is likely, then ocean exploration and colonization would almost be a certainty.
CoolWater
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posted 10-14-99 12:01 PM EST (US)
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I don't know......I've postulated about the 1 acre per person statement (and, this is just my opinion, and not a judgement). At one point in time it seemed like a LOT of land. However, I now live in an area where everyone has a minimum of three acres, and I can't conceive of living with less.
Just consider the simple requirements of horse-keeping, for instance, which many have listed as a New System dream. Each horse needs a MINIMUM of two acres just for grazing, and that is hardly optimal.....five acres per horse would be more the ideal to avoid additional feeding supplementation.

One acre seems terribly claustrophobic. It just seems that (in my opinion) extra-terrestrial colonization would be almost essential to avoid severely overburdening resources.

Jane
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posted 10-14-99 01:43 PM EST (US)
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Good Point, but remember a family of 5 would have 5 acres. Certainly each individual wouldn't live alone on his own acre.
Arnell

posted 10-14-99 01:47 PM EST (US)
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Hmm. The space colonization does sound like a good idea, and possibly even a necessary eventuality.
Isn't there some sort of work being done now by NASA and the like on terraforming? After Armageddon, this research may still be valid.

Are there any space shuttle pilots in the house? Hee hee! I wish now I had paid more attention to the astronomy section of my high school science classes.

I wonder what Jehovah's plan is for the rest of the universe? It's so huge!

Maybe there are other civilizations somewhere out there. Imagine the preaching opportunity! Now THAT is missionary work!

I can't wait to find out!
a gentle soul
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posted 10-14-99 02:20 PM EST (US)
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Don't laugh, but this may sound like its out of the delta quadrant (a/k/a the left field for you non-space cadets).
Ever wonder if the vastness of space may have already benefitted from Jehovah glorious wisdom? (my opinion) And maybe the earth is simply lagging behind because the majority of it's population acts so unscripturally and primatively? (my space cadet thinking)

I have to remember, when I limit myself to my primitive thinking, I limit the results. When I think bigger than myself, bigger than the earth - along the lines of Jehovah's vastness and unlimited wisdom, suddenly I'm able to make quantum leaps forward.

Could some of those peace loving extra-terrestrials already be doing that? Again, don't laugh, this was just my space cadet brain thinking outloud! :> lol

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...man and beast, living in peace, cause no harm to each other...

CoolWater
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posted 10-14-99 02:56 PM EST (US)
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Jane,
I also considered that point. However, what you need to keep in mind is that the theory expounded was that one acre per person would be enough to supply each person with FOOD only.

So, with each person's food being supplied by his/her own allotment, five acres would be needed to feed the family of five. Then you need some area for a dwelling....then add on five acres per horse, and you're looking at the family of five needing potentially thirty or more acres.

Unless, of course, we eliminate all dreams of keeping any domestic animals and limit the scenario to enough land to pitch a tent and grow enough food to provide for each person in the family unit.

Then, when the children grow up, in order to maintain the status quo, they would need to continue to live with their parents so that they would not require individual housing.

Logistics are becoming complicated.
Bek
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posted 10-14-99 10:52 PM EST (US)
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Another great thread Big Ray!
Sorry to pick up on one of the gruesome comments, but I remember coming in on the tail end of a discussion once about whether we would be personally involved in cleaning up the remains of those destroyed.

Of course, this was all personal speculation, but after a bit of to-ing and fro-ing we all thought that Jehovah's loving kindness and general orderliness would mean we wouldn't be involved, that he would use some other means eg. animals. After all, think of all the diseases that can spread. And then think of the laws Jehovah provided to the Israelites regarding the touching of dead creatures.

But then, I seem to remember an illustration of tidying up in the Paradise and someone pointed out to me that right down the bottom of the picture, in a pile of dirt, was an arm. We'll just have to wait 'n see for the instructions I guess.

Arnell

posted 10-15-99 12:32 AM EST (US)
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The animals can only clean up so much. I mean, roadkill stays on highways for ages. There are bits even crows don't seem to want.
Fortunately, we won't have to worry about disease. "Neither sickness, nor disease, nor pain will be anymore. The former things have passed away."

But still, the corpses of the opposers of God must be gotten rid of. A place with bodies strewn about doesn't mesh with anyone's idea of paradise. Ick. Once they're cleaned up, the beautification project can begin in earnest.

"Bold and determined in this time of the end."
Big Ray
no photo
posted 10-15-99 04:07 AM EST (US)
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Remember that for dust we are and to dust we will return?
That's the reason why, I think, that the body removal process will not be one of our responsibilities... besides, haven't we put up with enough mess from the outsiders than to have to spend time cleaning up decomposition...? I kinda think the docomposition process will be sped up greatly... just like the scene where Donovan drinks from the Holy Grail in "The Last Crusade"... Dude turned to dust pretty quickly... besides, the Great Trib and Armaggedon will be rife with supernatural events and miraculous happenings... why stop there? Why should WE have to dispose of the Billions of dead? The birds could be given appetites that don't get filled, and they could really take care of a carcass if Jehovah wants it to be that way... so it'll be gruesome, yeah, but not something that we should have to be involved in...

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BigOl'Ray
"...the man of thinking abilities is hated."--Prov.14:17b
Check out what I have been doing outside of www.airbrushonline.com --
www.infonetwichita.com

pixie_poet
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posted 10-15-99 06:10 PM EST (US)
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The first thing we will be doing is singing to Jehovah's Magnificence and thanking him that we are alive. Singing is very important, you know. Then we will have a big Vindication and Sanctification celebration, sort of like a district convention, only minus the hoagies, and add some manna(just for curiosity sake) and well oiled dishes... Yeah, lots of food.
PantingOnToo
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posted 10-15-99 10:49 PM EST (US)
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Please allow a big hello from a first-time poster.
HELLO.

There are some great ideas here! When we get to the other side, if it's Jehovah's will that I'm there, I have to say a big prayer would be in order, along with some screaming and hopping around. I wonder if there won't also be a lot of angelic direction as far as where to go, what to do...

I can't believe there won't be a lot of destruction - I remember a statement in an older Watchtower about the possibility of major changes in the surface of the earth. How much of Satan's physical world will necessarily be left over? How much was left over the last time?

On the idea of people who maybe got it right now inhabiting other planets, look at the April 8, 1990 Awake, beginning on page 9. In the article, "Extraterrestrials - Finding the Answer" The Society's viewpoint, which I wholeheartedly support (not just because the implications are much more cool), is that, scripturally, it is highly unlikely that Jehovah created intelligent, flesh-and-blood creatures on other planets. The reasoning goes like this:

First, let's say for the sake of argument that Jehovah did. They either remained faithful or they sinned just like Adam and Eve.

A. If they sinned too, and needed a redeemer ... check out this quote:
"One has the dreadful thought that on Friday, every Friday, somewhere in the universe Jesus is being hanged high for someone's sins."
How would that jibe with Romans 6:10?

B. If they remained faithful, why weren't they called as witnesses when Satan raised his issues in the Garden of Eden about God's right to rule over a world of intelligent creatures? Can't we testify that his intelligent creatures here, despite being imperfect, have been used as his witnesses throughout history?

I prefer to imagine earth as square one in any largescale habitation of the universe Jehovah may be planning - the starting point.

Just my $.02.

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"Bring new days for us as in the long ago."
waystation
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posted 10-16-99 12:02 AM EST (US)
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PantingOnToo, my thoughts exactly.
Big Ray
no photo
posted 10-16-99 04:13 AM EST (US)
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I'm going to add a few more cents to the pot on that one, and then I have to close the thread due to size...
That's some very good logic there...

In the "theory" thread, I had talked about Jehovah allowing evil to exist for a time to set a precedent. That's the only logical reason for him to allow any of this, for if it can happen here, it can happen elsewhere...

Why Banish Satan to the vicinity of the earth? Why not Chandra 3 in the Chandra system some 3 million light years away?(fictional system, y'all) He was certainly capable of going there and causing a ruckus as well... But could you imagine an entire universe of imperfect people? The levels of evil would be tremendous!

So it seems that for all time, space colonization or not, creation of other sentient life on other planets or not, we are living during a time of precedents, folks... When evil and imperfection are done away with here on the earth, it'll be done away with thruout the universe. Anyone rebelling against peace and goodness will be dealt with most swiftly... for there will be no need to prove anything... no lawyers to defend the transgressor... no excuses...

That's sobering, n'est pas?

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BigOl'Ray
"...the man of thinking abilities is hated."--Prov.14:17b

Follow Ups:

- *New Systen Logistics(witnet) Rick 18:23:30 11/15/99 (1)
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    - ***New Systen Logistics(witnet) AF 15:41:09 11/14/99 (1)
      - ****New Systen Logistics(witnet) WW 16:27:51 11/14/99 (0)
  - **New Systen Logistics(witnet) WW 12:32:02 11/14/99 (0)

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