*Teenagers Beware!

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Posted by WitnetObserver [WitnetObserver] on November 11, 1999 at 07:42:49 {mJnjjpluA6UpnpSRK9rsQv.iPpdwjE}:

In Reply to: Teenagers Beware! posted by metatron on November 11, 1999 at 05:25:13:

BAD ASSOCIATIONS

"Where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom." (2 Corinthians 3:17)

Whose laws were we designed to obey? Another part of the text at 1 Peter 2:16 (JB) states: "You are slaves of no one except God." This does not mean an oppressive slavery, but, rather, it means that we were designed to be happiest when in subjection to God's laws. (Matthew 22:35-40) His laws, more than any laws devised by humans, provide the best guide. "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk."-Isaiah 48:17.

Jesus' commission was to "tell good news to the meek ones," to "bind up the brokenhearted," to "comfort all the mourning ones." (Matthew 28:19; Isaiah 61:1, 2; Luke 4:18, 19)

None of these ways of telling you the good news would be meaningful to you if the one telling you did not apply the teachings to himself. To say one thing and do another is hypocrisy, and religious hypocrisy has turned millions away from the Bible.

The above text is from the Watchtower's website
http://www.watchtower.org/library/dg/part_5.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/br78/ways_they_use.htm
The following text is not....

questions
1. Can the "spirit of Jehovah" truly be present when people are
told to "not talk to certain people". Can you "comfort all the
mourning ones" as Jesus instructed, if you are not allowed to
talk to "certain people"?
2. If "You are slaves of no one except God." Could you honestly
justify avoiding people because someone told you to? Who would
you be "slaves of"? Would avoiding "certain people" be a
service to A: Jehovah
or B: The ones who told you to avoid them.
3. The Bible states "Jehovah is the One teaching you". If Jehovah
says this, and the ones who told you to avoid them knew that,
The reason would be
A: the one telling you did not apply the teachings to himself.
B: For some reason,they thought it would be better to do things
their way...probably "for your own good".
would this REALLY be for YOUR own good?
4. "You are slaves of no one except God." What if the same people
who taught you about God, taught you things that didn't agree
with the Bible? Could you AUTOMATTICALLY believe EVERYTHING that
they taught was the truth? What if they said that you just didn't
understand? Would you believe them then? Or if they said that you
were BAD for using your own "reasoning". Would you feel better
going along with "them" so they wouldn't call you BAD anymore?
5. If you "went along" could you honestly claim that you were a
"slave of no one except God"?
6. If you didn't "go along" with them they might:
A:call you BAD some more
B:stop talking to you
C:tell you that you would be slaughtered at Armegeddon
D:avoid you
E:all of the above
7. What if they said that I was controlled by SATAN ..just for
writing my comments about the Watchtower's OWN WEBSITE?
would you believe them? Would you stop "surfing the net"?
What if I was "distorting" the truth? or "twisting" or
"rearranging" or "out of context" would that be ...
A:my right to free speech
B:my freedom of religion
C:blasphemy

I am an honest GOD-FEARING human being that felt these comments
were obvious.Go to their site and see if I was reading between the
lines- Since God didn't make traffic laws..men had to
So does it follow that if people don't understand the Bible
we need other (people) to "explain it to us"?
Or can you believe this?
This does not mean an oppressive slavery, but, rather,
it means that we were designed to be
happiest when in subjection to God's laws.
This does not mean an oppressive slavery!
==================================================
When someone's teachings imply: "You must do things our way,
or you will be disfellowshipped" it is a bit scarry. But if
being "shunned" contributes to the "DF's" attitude/belief that
they are "bad".... It can lead to spitefully/needless additional
sinning that may not have happened otherwise.

more shunproof?

Topic: DF´s and family

Morty

posted 03-16-99 06:06 AM EST (US)

Obviously, when a person is DF, their friends stay away from them during until they´re reinstated. However, it seems that the practice is somewhat different when it comes to relatives, judging from what I´ve seen. I´ve seen families where the DF person is accepted, even partying together with that person. In my family, my sister-in-law is DF. My mother-in-law has regular contact with her, a lot of it because of her grandchild I guess. My wife, however, has chosen to remain silent, apart from sending her a letter stating that she loves her sister and want the best for her. This situation has lasted for almost two years now. During this summer, we´ll be driving through her town on the way to our holiday destination. She is planning to get married in the spring, thus legalizing her relationship. Thus, we feel her situation has changed somehow, although she has not expressed any interest in coming back to the truth. What we´re thinking of is to pay her a brief visit on our trip, enabling her to see our child that is 1 and half years, that she hasn´t seen and our other kids. It will be no talk of having a regular social relationship - especially because of the distance involved. What have you done in similar situations?

------------------
Norseman

Mark E Fabian

posted 03-16-99 06:47 AM EST (US)

I can understand what you have seen. My sister and my sister-in-law are both disfellowshipped. My wife hasn't spoken to her sister since their fathers funeral about 6 years ago. My sister was recently disfellowshipped and sent me a letter saying how she would like our family to get closer together, but I replied that if she is need of assistance and I'm in the position to help, to let me know. Otherwise, I have no interest in resuming a relationship. What I find with her is that she is unable to accept responsibility for her actions. Throughout the letter she mentioned how she has done nothing wrong. She also added some apostate information.

I don't think that Jehovah's position changes when DF involves family members. I remember that back in ancient Israel, those who disobeyed Jehovah were put to death. At least in the Truth, these spiritually "dead" ones have a chance to come back to the truth and be "resurrected". If nothing changes, and we continue to associate with them, what would prompt them to look at the actions and perhaps repent?

Whether or not you stop in at your sister-in-law's house or not is your decision and no one elses. I wish you all the best on your choice.

Mark

Corey Williams

posted 03-16-99 08:58 AM EST (US)

Remember these primary things:
1Co 5:9-13; 15:33; 2Co 6:14-18; 2Jo 10,11

These things are done for our protection as well as for the salvation of those from whom we seperate ourselves.

Would you want to be counted by God as a sharer with wicked ones? (2Co 6:17)

Corey

[This message has been edited by Corey Williams (edited 03-16-99).]

natanis

posted 03-16-99 09:27 AM EST (US)

As a person who has been disfellowshipped and reinstated 5 years ago, I feel I can speak to this subject. I was disfellowshipped for 7 years and during this time had little contact with my family. The only contact was phone calls to keep them aprised of my whereabouts and when my children were born. For a time,I resented this but knew this would be the case when I put myself into the position that resulted in disfellowshipping. I feel that this was the proper way for my family to be with regards to Bible principles. Recent articles such as the Watchtower discussion on the prodigal son discuss this somewhat.
I would like to say that I would not have the respect I have for my father if he had not made the stand he made with regards to Bible principles. We are told not to even take a meal with such a man, this would not change because he is a family memeber.
Ona personal note, my stepmother divorced my father several years ago and disassociated herself. At first I felt I could allow her to see my children, after all she was their Grandmother, as she had raised me since the age of 4. However, as I have grown spiritually, I don't know what I would do if she wished to see them. Up till now she has not made any effort to see them even when given the opportunity. I have, therefore, come to conclusion that she has no interest in doing so and that how she feels about us, (my sisters and I) is directly connected to her feelings about the truth. I also found this to be true in my case when I was disfellowshipped, I had no real interest in the wellbeing of my family as I knew that basically at that time had nothing in common with them other than family obligation to let them know how I was or where I was. I am not saying this is how disfellowshipped ones feel, and I know that some may require assistance from their families, and Jehovah makes room for this, as we are to care for our family members if they NEED it. I am saying that those who have been disfellowshipped know their position and the results of their discipline and therefore, should not expect anything but absolutely minimal contact.
Just my thoughts, not sure if they will help, but you never know.
Agape` natanis

[This message has been edited by natanis (edited 03-16-99).]

newsystem

posted 03-16-99 01:42 PM EST (US)

We should always follow the society's counsel on df's FAMILY MEMBERS, but remember theres a diference between one who is making no effort to return and one who is making a sincere effort ie: regularly attending meetings, personal study and preparation for meetings. The latter deserves our encouragement if we are their family member.

Inotnea Serrot

posted 03-18-99 02:25 PM EST (US)

Mark,your use of the Mosaic law to justify the way we treat DF persons makes me most uncomfortable. How does this attitude fit in with Jesus' commandment to "Love our ENEMY"? And Correy, those were all very nice Bible texts you posted but you seem to overlook an important fact; How many DF persons you know actually fit the title of "Wicked"? Most Disfellowshipping is due to weaknesses than pure evil. Examples: Teenager pressured into smoking his first cigarette, an elderly brother who refuses to accept a certain teaching, and many other trivial matters that have caused many brothers to loose their family and friends. Correy, please read those Bible texts again and this time keep in mind that whatever we do must be tempered with the love that is unique to Chistians. My personal opinion? DF should be the absolute last resort and only if the person truly proves to be "wicked' in his heart and a danger to the congregation.

jeffbouldin

posted 03-18-99 03:02 PM EST (US)

Inotnea,

An elder once told me that no one is disfellowshipped for what they do but their attitude toward what they did. Beleive me, the last things elders want to do is DF someone. They will try anything before resorting to that.

Being disfellowshipped is really up to the sinner, all he or she has to do is repent and demonstrate that repentance and there would be no need for disfellowshipment.

Jeff

CJE

posted 03-18-99 03:39 PM EST (US)

Jeff:

I completely agree with your post. Speaking from experience (I was DF for 7 years til '83), and having been married for 17 years to a DF fellow, I agree that it is NOT the sin that brings about the disfellowshipped state, but only a lack of repentance.

DF takes a long time to come about...lots of meetings with the brothers, long hours of their trying to help adjust an attitude in a loving way. No one is disfellowshipped for smoking one cigarette. There are quite a number of articles dealing with this subject in the Watchtower and Awake magazines.

A point I came across when doing research to help my sons adjust to their dad's 2nd disfellowshipping is the need to avoid 'unnecessary' association. That was the key word to define appropriate association for us.

I wouldn't tell someone what they should do regarding association with df family members. However, I would remind everyone that when one is df, they are actually making a conscious decision to cut off family relationships. They abandon Jehovah as well as his people.

This certainly is a subject needing attention in prayer. Complying with the scriptural guidance to avoid associating with df ones is hard, yet one of the most effective methods of illustrating what they've abandoned and showing our support of Jehovah's principles. How else could we show we don't condone their behaviour?

It is a loving, though difficult arrangement. As usual, Jehovah know's best.

Christian love,
Cindy

Inotnea Serrot

posted 03-18-99 04:51 PM EST (US)

Jeff and CJE both bring up good points about how one brings about their own disfellowshipping. But I think it would be good for us to be realistic, Disfellowshipping is a perfect system in the hands of imperfect men. Sure we've all read the articles outlining why a person is DF, sure all Elders are familiar with the guidelines, but who among us has not heard of the brother or sister who was DF for a trivial matter in spite of an obvious display of repentence? We must be careful not to speak in definitives like "no is is expelled for this or that". The fact is behind the judicial commitee's closed door, the elders have the final say on the matter. Please remember that when a person is "expelled" they are no longer part of God's organization, thus if the end came tomorrow according to what we teach, they could be destroyed.We are also saying that they fall under the term "wicked", and in my years as a witness, I've met few "wicked" witnesses.Again let me stress that I believe that there is a need for keeping the congregation clean, but doing away with the Mosaic law and replacing it with another complex system of rules and guidelines for determining disfellowshipping offenses defeats the purpose of Christs sacrifice.The bible is clear on this matter "get the wicked one out from among you". Wicked is the key word here.

Your brother

Serrot

natanis

posted 03-18-99 06:16 PM EST (US)

Inotnea,
I can understand your reasoning. It should be a last resort,and for the most part it is. I was disfellowshipped and it took 2 reproofs and over a year to get me there. The brothers tried. I may not have been wicked perse, but I was not repentant and did not do works befitting repentance. For the congregation to be kept clean, wicked or not, those who continue a course in wrongdoing must be removed. Children do bad things and for these are punished be cause we love them, this does not make them bad children. The same goes for us Proverbs 3:11,12 "...the one Jehovah loves he reproves" , see also Hebrews 12:7 and 11. Disfellowshipping is a discipline from Jehovah, granted sometimes (and not very often) mistakes are made, but as with all things, this tests our faith and endurance and is always straightened out by Jehovah. On him, we must learn to wait.
Also, see Watchtower 1996, 3/15 Jehovah-A Lover of Righteousness and Justice, and also paragraph 14 in the article in the same mag. Loyalty-Meeting the Challenge. It is good to research the Society's spiritual food with regard to such matters, this is where we can find a more balanced view. The brothers are required to balance mercy without being too lenient, a difficult balance to maintain.
We must as, the article regarding loyalty says, support and not second guess the ones who are shepherds over us.
Agape` natanis

Silverfx2

posted 03-19-99 02:35 AM EST (US)

Just in case you were hurting for a reply, submitting these references b/4 running off to a bible-study:

Be obedient to those taking the lead - w89 9/15 p24 para.18, in how dealing with DF.
Further:
w88- 4/15 p26
w88- 11/15 p18-20
w81- 9/15 p26-31; also w81-9/1

To be edited later
Well, I am back, for a short time but a good time, keeping my JOY.

The above articles emphasize the need of congregational support, 1st. to the family, then how we deal with the matter as Christans, staying loyal to Jah, then the Cong. & our family.

If I have time, I will post some of the excerpts.
________________________________________
Re. the re-integration into the cong. - depends on many things, the primary being: Is the person cut to the heart over the disrepute that he/she has done to Jah & the cong.? Satan is now in a position where he can challenge Jah. That is what has been done. How sad. Repair must now be done. Again, Is the person cut to the heart?
Not just tears, but seeing the damage that has been done. Where & how can restitution be made. The ball is in the court of the offender.
Meanwhile, the cong. will do what it can to show that our org. is a clean & wholesome org. to attend: Yes, somewhere for visitors, & hopefully future ministers, can attend.

In this manner we can all continue to tap the fruit of the spirit: JOY.

------------------
To my friends, Warmest Philia, G_P_J

[This message has been edited by Silverfx2 (edited 03-19-99).]

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