Posted by Bibleman [Bibleman] on November 10, 1999 at 07:19:42 {AAJB0ph6mYMRXA6xmpscslyACFuF8c}:
In Reply to: **BIBLEMAN - IMPERFECT JESUS? posted by Antique on November 10, 1999 at 04:44:01:
Good question, and this is an area that may be observed only from a distance as far as the details I think, just like the first resurrection, how it actually works, etc.
But even if someone is "dead" their memory and experiences can be accessed if revived. I was giving a "shade" to this concept. That is, if you were say a spirit and you needed a fleshly body and you chose a body to inhabit then your life in that body would resurrect that person and you could expect to look like them, have access to their memory, etc. But their "life" would not be present. Though they still LIVE as an individual since you reanimate their memory.
So, just as becoming "anointed" is something you must participate in and "accept" apparently this is similar in this case. Jesus comes to the door and knocks, but you have to get up and let him in to become of the "anointed". You don't just suddenly have an uncontrollable urge to eat unfermented cakes and drink wine at the memorial.
But in this case, a real or symbolic voluntary surrending of that individual's life took place. Isa. 53 deals with this and prophecies they would be like a sheep before the slaughterer's who does not make a cry out. So that person underwent a mock death before select JIOR persons. Thus, besides publicly providing a testimony that they would be faithful until death, that person, like Isaac, symbolically died.
So in that sense, even if the memory and identity were still intact, in some sense, some component of their life was taken away or put into the background. This person senses that the life of that person died in some spiritual sense. Or that person formally gave up his "life" (probably a bad term) to his body and that the angelic Jesus could thus have access to this body and use it by his own animation.
I know this is not specific and I know this is vague. But if I could give you another concept, it's like saying, Okay, you can use my body, I'll step out of the way, so they had to show that by being willing to die. They had to volunteerily give up their life. But then they came back to life in a sense when the angelic Jesus "possessed" (sorry...that's just not the word I like to use, :>) their body.
Subjectively, in other words, they sense that some aspect connected with that person they were before, is gone. Where? What? How? is not clear.
But for some who might wonder if there are two LIVES present in the same body sharing the same body, that is not the subjective feeling. The "sense" is that person died, that is, was taken away by Jehovah in some sense.
In the actual outworking of things, though, the "exchange" could have happened within the twinkling of an eye so there was no period of actual DEATH per se. That he knows of. That's because he was awake at the time of the "symbiosis". But I suppose it is possible he literally died at some point in this process and was resurrected. I'm not sure.
That's as close as I understand it. But there is a sense that that person had to give up his life in order for this process to take place, so it's just one life now.
Here's a subjective concept that seems to ring true if you want an abstract concept. It's as if that person died and gave up their "life" but because their actual body was reanimated by that of the angelic Messiah, they are being "remembered". Like playing a deceased movie stars old films or playing a late recording artists' records. So they live again vicariously. Which is just as good, but still there must be some heavenly technicality involved. It's miraculous and mysterious.
So that's why I brought up the "dead" person's body, simply because there is a sense of sadness that that "actual person" died or had to die for this to take place. So the mock death was a sign of volunteerily dying and giving up their life, some aspect of which was not resurrected or recovered.
Oh, here's another example. It's like you have a place in your body for a "battery" and everybody has their own "battery" of life. And perhaps for most resurrections at Judgment day, that person's identity and their "battery" will be resurrected.
But in this case, this person had to agree that they would forever give up their own personal battery, and instead the angelic Messiah's battery would be put in. So they are alive and running on the Messiah's battery now instead of their own.
The technical spiritual reality is, though, that something of theirs was given up forever in this process.
But that sort of also happend with Jesus, because he had to give up his human body in exchange for Adams'. So he lost something permanently in a sense. He had to give some aspect of his human rights up forever! Something was actually lost and exchanged by some Heavenly Laws and Rules of Exchange of life.
So Jesus gave up his "body" and this person gave up his "life" and now, they are one. That persons' identity and memory are part of Jesus' personality and identity now.
And maybe one final layer. I think that person is unique in that he is not "resurrected". He's just remembered via being part of the Messiah's identity now.
And that's the best I can explain it. Anyway, this had to be VOLUNTARY and there was the need for a mock semi-public "death" ritual that had to be set up, just like Abraham killing his son, but not actually.
It's possible, I suppose, that while sleep over two days in the mock above-ground tomb (i.e. a large trash container was used) that he actually died physically. Then the Messiah's life inhabited his body, but not his full spirit and when the "symbiosis" took place it was just a psychological representation that the holy spirit of the Messiah now combined with that person. But that person may have already been the Messiah at this point.
That's because this took place last. And the battle in heaven to establish the legal case against Satan was witnessed by this person who debated why Satan should die. So who knows what is "partial" and what is what? So there was a court scene in Heaven that he attended.
In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, that person sensed the "death" of his person right after he was almost crushed in a giant press. So maybe that is when the actual "exchange" of "life" took place technically, and then after everything was over, the conscious concept of symbiosis took place.
What actually happened was like a question. At point, that person figured out he must have been the Messiah, though not understanding the details.
So having figured out the obvious he finally formally spiritually asked Jehovah about this. And at the moment of this 'recognition' the sense of Messianic symbiosis took place. That is, the sense that the separate spirit of the Messiah which was perceived now was combined within him.
So now the various parts are one.
And then after that, this new "memory" had an interview with Jehovah only parts of which are recallable. But it was all in visionary form while this person was asleep. Or so this person claims.
But you know...can we belief this? This is hard for even me to believe sometimes. But I guess it actually happened. Could be real. Could be a delusional process.
Who knows?
Hope that was a help.
Cheers,
Bibleman