# *144,000

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Posted by Amazing [Anointed] on November 10, 1999 at 12:12:44 {AAJB0ph6mY/CPYT8orz2ASIIcexUto}:

In Reply to: 144,000 posted by disko on November 10, 1999 at 10:45:14:

Disko: You raise a good question. When I first studied to become a Witness, I thought that the 144,000 must be literal Jews, since the 12 tribes were mentioned. The brother who studied with me pointed out two things of importance, that the tribes mentioned were not the same as literal Israel, and hence are sybolic of Spiritual Israel (Anointed Christians), and that the opening of the book of Rev. states that it is given in signs or symbols. This then requires that we see much of what is written as metphorical, symbolic, illustrative.

When I questioned if the number 144,000 was symblic, the response came back that the Society views the contrast between the 'Great Crowd' which "no man can number" and the limited number of 144,000 to be comparitive. That is, the Society contends that the comparison indicates two different groups. So, that is how they jump from symbolic 12 tribes, with each having a symbolic 12,000 to the 144,000 being literal.

Some of the great critics on H20 and elsewhere have made an excellent point that the Great Crowd are seen in the Divine habitation, Most Holy (Gr. Naos), and thus must be viewed as in heaven. Many of these critics contend that the unlimited Great Crowd and the limited 144,000 are the same group, but described in two different ways. One described in a literal way as the Great Crowd and one described in a symbolic way as 144,000 meaning a full and absolute compliment to complete spiritual Israel. There is merit in their view.

In the 1960s, shortly before I began to profess being of the anointed, I had a wonderful discussion with an old sister who knew Charles Russell. She was 85 years old in 1969 and had been a witness (Bible Student) all her life. She met Russell sometime around 1907 when she was a young Colporter (what is now called a Pioneer).

In her private discussion with Russell she asked him about this very question. Russell taught that there were two heavenly classes. He believed that the Great Crowd and the 144,000 were two different groups, but he recognized that the Great Crowd must be located in heaven. He did not discuss the Greek word Naos with her, but I speculate that had something to do with his views. It was Rutherford who fundamentally cast the Great Crowd as being rewarded with an earthly hope, but the 144,000 remained in heaven.

The Society also teaches that the 144,000 are selected to rule with Christ, and thus as literal rulers would naturally be fewer in number than those ruled over. So, for the Society to take the number 144,000 literally, also has some logical merit.

The very premise of rulership, anointing, God's Kingdom, etc. is very different in many other Christian religions. Many do not take rulership in the same literal governmental sense that the Society does:

Most Christians do not make an exotic mystical thing about anointing. They see anointing as one among many ways to describe their relationship to God and Christ. They do not feel that Christian anointing should elevate them above any other person.

To many Christians God's kingdom is more global in scope and has little to do with a literal government. To average Christians, the Kingdom of God represents all those who submit themselves to Christ, to the will of God, and the leading of the holy spirit, and thus become part of God's domain. For most Christians, ruling with Christ as kings and priests is more the cooperative interealtionship between the individual and having God work in his/her life to gain victory over sin and the devil. Their rulership is conquoring this world as did the Apostles.

In other words, the very foundational concepts one holds about God, his Kingdom, and ruling with Christ often determine how such things as 144,000 are interpreted.

I hope that this is a helpful contribution to you.

Simply Amazing

Follow Ups:

- **144,000 Alan 13:54:26 11/10/99 (1)
  - ***144,000 Amazing 14:28:09 11/10/99 (0)

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