# **? FOR FAITHFULJW

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Posted by Bibleman [Bibleman] on November 08, 1999 at 16:56:32 {Nq8EnQ8RVAMRXA6xmpscslyACFuF8c}:

In Reply to: *? FOR FAITHFULJW posted by Leastofthese on November 08, 1999 at 09:41:48:

Dear Leastofthese,

My! You ask some incredibly FOCUSSED questions! You are asking precisely what you should be. So I'll try to answer them specifically.

Where may I ask did you get such an understanding?

From the Bible.

While this Idea of Jesus coming as an imperfect one in his second coming is not entirely foreign to me - where did you get this from? Upon what do you base this theory?

This "theory" if I may be precise and concise is based upon several scriptures, some of which in particular could not be fulfilled by Jesus at his first coming in the perfect flesh.

1) Top of the list for me: The significance of "unfermented cakes" wave offering on Nisan 16th, but the wave offering at Pentecost WITH LEAVEN. Question is, what is the significance of the leaven in the second wave offering? How can Jesus fulfill the second wave offering if LEAVEN represents sin? It doesn't work with the perfect Jesus at the first coming. But if the second wave offering represents his RETURN, and he returns as the prodigal son in the imperfect flesh, then this is PROPHETIC. So this is nearly the point of no return before we even get started. That as to be fulfilled. Perfectly fulfilled under the imperfect return theory.

2) Zechariah 3. Amazing. You have high-priest Joshua presenting with "befouled garments" who specifically represents Jesus Christ. Those befouled garments, of course, representing sinfulness. But how can the befouled garments aspect of this prophetic picture be applied to Jesus, who must be sinless? The only thing you can do is dismiss that Jesus actually fulfills the befouled garments aspect of the prophecy. Problem is, we are not in a liberal position to do this since we must ask the alternative which is what if Jesus is supposed to fulfill this aspect of the prophecy as well? How can it be said of Jesus that he ever presented with befouled garments? It doesn't work with the Perfect First Coming. But if Jesus were to have his second coming in the imperfect flesh, its perfectly representative and prophetic of this.

So at this point, Biblically, whether one agrees with the interpretation or not, you have the foundation for this "imperfect" theory. Both the above scriptures have to have exceptions made to apply to the Perfect Jesus Christ. Fulfilled completely and directly, it does not fit the perfect Jesus Christ. But is directly supports and implies that Jesus would come in the imperfect flesh at the second coming.

Now let's pretend we see how this is at least implied and we want to check other scriptures to see if there is support for this half-baked theory. That is, is there anything, absolutely anything in scripture that would suggest that at Jesus' second coming, he would come in imperfection. Well... three strikes and you're out.

3) The "Prodigal Son" Parable: Here we find the prodigal son returning, being put ahead of his older, "righteous" brother, a banquet being given, a seal ring on the hand, and brand new clothes. This is the Zechariah 3 prophecy repeated back to us. Essentially, the prodigal son is high-priest Joshua showing up with befouled garments. Each are given clean clean clothes. Joshua receives a turban and is made king and priest. The prodigal son is given a seal ring. Only the Prodigal Son parable is prophetic of the Second Coming.

Why Messianic: The private banquet is a recurring theme associated with the Messiah's second coming. It appears as the "wedding feast" in the parable of the ten virgins, for instance.
Also the "robe" and the "ring" certainly are Messianic clues. These are kingship items. But then the banquet scene is triplicated as below. That is, in the next two parables, the moral of forgiveness of the repentent is clear and how there is greater joy over that one than the faithful, but in each, there is a specific celebration with friends. This relates to the nature of Christ's Second coming and banqueting with his own followers.

4) Luke 15:4-7, "The Lost Sheep" parable. Ditto. But note after he finds the sheep, "he calls his friends and neighbors together."

5) Luke 15:8-10 "The Lost Drachma Coin" parable. The second in this series. Again the same story. The anguish over the loss and the joy over recovery, and specifically "..when she has found it she calls the women who are her friends and neighbors together, saying: "Rejoice with me because I have found the Drachma coin that was lost."

But this is exactly what the Father of the prodigal son tells the older brother: "..but we just had to enjoy ourselves and rejoice, because this your brother was DEAD and came to life, he was lost and was found."

So this is not simply some theory, this is a MAJOR THEME of the Second Coming. That when the Messiah arrives at the second coming, he, in a sense will be first lost but then recovered. And thus the JOY over the choice of who is chosen to become the Messiah is explained here. But all these parables are talking about the Messiah. The Messiah is the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son. And Jehovah is the shepherd, the woman and and the father, who clearly puts this lost one above all others!

All this fuss to emphasize a point that is non-Messianic? I don't think so.

Then we have a fundamental scripture to consider of note in Hebrews:

(But please note it is long over for me at this point. Only directly contradictory scriptures will work now to supplant this "understanding". But it continues to pile on... In other words, we've got the three-tier cake, we've put the icing on it, we've put the cherry on top, and now, just since we have it, we're pulling in the cement mixer full of icing and we're going to dump 80 gallons of icing on the cake now... That's where I am "Biblically" at this point...).

6) This is an important technical scripture. Hebrews 9:28 talks about the differences in the first and second advents: "So also the christ was offered once for all time to bear the SINS of many; and the second time he APPEARS it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for their salvation."

Such a beautiful scripture. I know there will be various interpretations, but one would be that he only came the first time as a SIN-sacrifice for mankind, once for all time. It was not necessary for him to do it again even though he would come in the flesh. So the second time he comes it will not be for the sake of SIN, that is, for the sake of offering himself in sacrifice. And also, here we find he appears to those earnestly seeking him, suggesting he APPEARS to his own. This relates to the "private banquet gathering" theme throughout the other parables.

This also directly relates to the differences in the wave offerings; the FIRST without leaven and the SECOND with leaven. The first sinless, the second in imperfection.

Now, there's more but I'm going to stop here. I'd just like to make again the overall conceptual view:

A. Jesus did not have to return to die all over again for his Second Coming. But he must return in the flesh. Why? Because he has to rule on the earth for 1000 years in the flesh with the other members of the Bride Class. (We can discuss that in detail later).

B. One critical consideration is that after Jesus ascended to Heaven, he forfeited in some sense his own body which had to be given in sacrifice for mankind. So how could he take it up again? LOGISTICS! The logistics to allow Jesus to return in the flesh for his short stent of the millennium and then Judgment Day after that as a judge of mankind, would be to simply use somebody else's body. Someone who would have to die and give up their body. One of his followers. Any one of them would do, but who was chosen was prophesied so he could be recognized by "those earnestly seeking him."

So Jesus has to come in the flesh to rule for the millennium. This makes sense, correct? Why would Jesus and 144,000 Bride Class members leave the earth to rule from heaven? How would they do it? Wouldn't it make sense, even if they were angels at this time, to materialize and come down to the earth to have hands-on? What are they to do? Communicate with a body of elders through dreams?

Forget it! It doesn't work. Jesus is coming BACK to the EARTH to sit on David's throne...literally!
The first resurrection is first in the FLESH and it is the ONLY resurrection that takes place before or during the millennium. And that first resurrection includes faithful men of old like Daniel, Abraham, etc. all of whom we already know are expected to be "princes in the EARTH." (So that's another discussion.)

Then there is the issue of Jesus coming the first time to learn about faithfulness as a perfect man, and the second time to understand faithfulness as an imperfect man, that is, becoming faithful after having fallen but then become repentent. Thus Jesus would understand God's MERCY and FORGIVENESS, something Jesus could not have experienced from Jehovah otherwise. So the choice of the "prodigal son" had many considerations.

Having said the above, I can now answer your next, very intuitive question:

Does this mean one of the anointed today, being less than perfect, is actually Jesus, or instead is it all of them as a composite body?

Yes and no. Yes Jesus would embody just one of his anointed ones. And that one who is "chosen" to accept the identity of the Messiah happens to have been one of the anointed to lived the life of the "prodigal son." Thus the prodigal son parable was information for those who would know Jesus to help identify him and who to look for. So whomever is claiming to be Jesus these days, they have to present some parallel of a life of that of a prodigal son, as well as chime in on time with Biblical chronology which specifically dates the YEAR (not the "day nor hour) of the Messiah's Second coming based upon Biblical prophetic chronology.

Also if it is only one, then whom is it?

Yes it is only one. However, FPP rules does not allow who the Messiah actually is to be posted here. Sorry. I try and respect the FPP rules as much as possible. But if you want the gory details, I am willing to reveal all in a CHAT away from this board. Then you can ask whatever you want and I will reveal the identity and some other critical details of Biblical fulfillment.

Just set something up, say at Yahoo, 24 hours in advance, and then H20 won't be involved. We'll announce it here and anybody can come and ask questions.

Was he or she Jesus from the beginning of birth or did he later occupy or posess the individual?

Very intuitive. The answer is no. Of course not.
Jesus is perfect and thus he couldn't come down and plan to lead a life of sin. And the person chosen and the spirit of Jesus himself were separate up until they were combined on December 25, 1992. In fact, that individual actually saw the glorified Jesus at one time. So before he actually became Jesus, he hadn't a clue as to who he was. But that was part of the test. That's what made it real.

In other words, this individual had to come back to God's house, hat in hand as it were, willing to take the least position in God's house. Willing to be a servant or slave in God's house rather than live in the world. He had to get to that point and come to that valuable lesson and thus give up his "life" for God's service. But simply to please God. For no other reason. If he had of known of the riches awaiting him, you could imagine how there is no way he could have found that truth in himself.

So to this individual, who would have served God happily, no matter what, in the last of positions, once he became Jesus, it was like: "Okay, some extra duties....sure! Load 'em on. I'm here for the duration, my great Lord and abundantly wonderful Father and Creator."

So that capacity of depth could be added to Jesus' personality by "adoption".

So that's it. (Actually it's not, there's more, but...) Anyone who thinks Jesus is not supposed to arrive in the flesh at this point, I can't hear them. There are just too many scriptures compatible with that "theory" outlining precisely this point.

But one more critical one you might consider is Matthew 24:28's reference: "Wherever the CARCASS is, there the eagles will be gathered togehter." First link the "eagles" with the eagle's wings which take the woman who gives birth to the kingdom into the wilderness. (Rev. 12:14)

This is an incredible scripture. It calls Jesus a CARCASS and shows the eagles surrounding him. How can anyone not understand how this scripture is so consistent with a visible, physical second coming?
If the eagles are the insightful anointed ones on the earth, then how can they surround this CARCASS, a body? If Jesus is in sprit? And this is specific. This is a CARCASS. Or a dead body. Why is Jesus being depicted as a DEAD BODY of all things? How is an invisible spirit a dead body?

But... if Jesus is the prodigal son, who IS dead at one point AND in the flesh, then this simply is a reference to that. That the eagle-class would know who the Messiah was and would be monitoring him without direct involvement even during the time he was away from God's house, in a spiritually dead state.

Jesus doesn't come in the flesh? No. I'm afraid not. Even if you're not convinced, can you understand why I might not be? Certainly you can see how far down the road and around the corner I am on this and I haven't reached the end of the block yet.

And there IS more. I haven't even touched Isaiah 53... So.

Anyway, you asked. That's where I got the idea. It is well-founded Biblically.

And furthermore, it is PAST-EVENT! That is, the scheduled time for the Messiah to arrive in the flesh as the Prodigal Son was 1992. The eagle-class was there, waiting, in attendance and it happened and they witnessed the "sign of the Son of Man" in the clouds just as prophesied, and they TOOK PICTURES! So it's a little different after the fact. That's the last cherry on top of the pile of icing buring the cake...

Am I done here?

Yeah, I'm done. Thanks for asking.

Cheers,
Bibleman

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