# Apology

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Posted by GregStafford [GregStafford] on November 08, 1999 at 22:12:06 {Nq8EnQ8RVA/CPYT8orz2XxZ4XktaQ.}:

Before I say what I have not said to the satisfaction of many, and probably rightfully so, I would like to highlight some posts in response to my “Enter Reality” message. Please, bear with me.

AF
Posted by AF [AF] on November 07, 1999 at 06:13:21 {zExURjw8QA1EwaxRomAMdaOt1gg/Zk}:
In Reply to: Enter Reality posted by GregStafford on November 06, 1999 at 19:07:43:

Now that the H2O rebuild script has undone the stupidity of the rogue administrator (thank the unknown original programmers!) and put the posts back, I can see why I might not have saved the 2nd TravisJ45 post: it wasn't worth saving because it said nothing of consequence. What it said could be deduced from the first.

RESPONSE
There is a clear difference between what I wrote in the first post and what I wrote in the second one. So, please, give me it a rest. You offer no critical analysis of what was said, and how you were able to read the first one but not the second one (since the second one was sent right after the other) prior to your having checked the board after the first one, is quite a mystery. But, your troubles go far beyond that, as my next post (in the morning) to H20 will explain.

AF
As for the rest of your silly diatribe, you have the nerve to chastise me for not saving your 2nd embarassing post?

RESPONSE
Saving it is not the same as reading it, and recognizing its relationship to the first one. Even if you did not see the second one, which you say you did not, I told you about it in an email, and you still acted as if there was only one deleted post in your restoration of the first one. You have no excuse for the way you acted then, or for the way you are acting now.

AF
Where is your own responsibility? I'm not your Mommy and you can't expect me to clean up your messes.

RESPONSE
Did I say anything about that? I am, again, referring to your irresponsible behavior in light of what I told you and several others in an email. You are the one who created a bigger mess by reposting only one post, when you KNEW there was another, as I told you all about it. So I am asking you to please clean up your own mess, or try to be more careful in the future, so that others are not created. How you took this in relation to what **I** did is another mystery.

AF
What a sad commentary on the mentality and integrity of JW defenders. Do you know what "hoist by your own petard" means?
AF

RESPONSE
Yes, it means you have run out of arguments and have only personal attacks left in the bag. You know, I have not been giving myself enough credit lately, AF. I have finally decided that I am more impressed with my patience with you than with my ability to argue. After all, anyone can argue against misquotes and false analogies. All you have to do is point them out. But I am sure you have an explanation forthcoming, in your eventual reply. Still, it takes a real fraud like myself to spend time going back and forth with you over issues that are quite easy to document and to understand. Yes, clearly, only a true fraud with my patience would examine the issues to this extent, with you.

See my next post for more on your act. I suggest you follow my lead (see below), and offer a complete apology for those falsehoods you have spread on this board, about me.

GEDANKEN
Posted by Gedanken [Gedanken] on November 07, 1999 at 10:06:16 {zExURjw8QAHdgEG/iekYGxDfYXLgH2}:
In Reply to: Enter Reality posted by GregStafford on November 06, 1999 at 19:07:43:

Greg,
I see that unwisdom is yet again prevailing with you. Short words are best and old words when short are best of all. Words like "sorry."

G.

RESPONSE
While I expected Gedanken to respond to those things I highlighted from his posts and replies, I find his attitude here very refreshing, and if each of us can keep this kind of tone and in our replies, then I think we are in for much better days here on H2O.

JH
Posted by J.H. [JH] on November 07, 1999 at 04:33:29 {zExURjw8QAwxcT1WLj/AHR5JhS9/hc}:
In Reply to: Enter Reality posted by GregStafford on November 06, 1999 at 19:07:43:
Obviously, Greg, you not only broke your arm when you were patting yourself on the back so hard, you broke whatever reputation you had among certain participants. Fact is you misrepresented yourself, added praise to your own person and your own arguments by pretending to be an outsider when you were not.
That means you are not only a liar, you are an especially pathetic, immature and desperate liar. Anyone pulling such a stunt, and being incompetent not of being caught, deserves to be laughed out of the room and subjected to all scorn and ridicule the FPP allows.

RESPONSE
Like AF, JH has few things of value to offer. You will notice, of course, that he completely avoided any interaction with the issues I mentioned in my “Enter Reality” message. So, I will try to ignore his usual tirade of insults. He also added:

JH
If you want to reclaim some of your lost reputation, an "I'm very sorry" will be a good start. [I have deleted his closing insults.]

RESPONSE
Well, JH, we’ll see just how forgiving you are. You almost sound like a normal, rational person after reading the above sentence. Surprise me...

Then we have the post by someone who clearly does not share all of my views, but who probably knows my attack pattern and habits better than anyone on this board:

CYGNUS
Posted by Cygnus [Cygnus] on November 07, 1999 at 02:14:34 {zExURjw8QAqVy0fc8XLcL4bdfUTIaI}:
In Reply to: Enter Reality posted by GregStafford on November 06, 1999 at 19:07:43:
Hi Greg,
You sure you didn't exceed the memory limit on that post? I'd have to take it down if it violated the FPP. :-)
Two things:
I still think the board deserves an "I'm sorry" from you. You admit that what you did was a mistake, but you haven't technically apologized. I know, it's only two words, but they are important words, I think.

RESPONSE
I apologize to everyone on the board. I made a terrible mistake in trying to fool people about my identity, and continue posting as someone else. I have elsewhere tried to explain the reasons for my actions, and I will say no more about them, except as called for below. Circumstances adversely impacted and distorted my better judgment, and I clearly chose the wrong way to handle the situation. Again, I am sorry.

CYGNUS:
Second, I was and certainly am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding this whole fiasco. I think Gedanken and J.H. have come down too hard on you. Something I don't care for (I initially wrote "hate") is dogmatism. In your book and in your posts, I don't find a lot of dogmatism. I find, basically, "Here's what I/we believe, and why. Take it for what it's worth." I admire and respect that, provided you admit that what you are defending is recognized as your opinion and not "the truth." I think you did slip up and say "the truth" in this last post, but, forgiving guy that I am, I'll overlook that common mistake.

RESPONSE
You know me well, as I said.

CYGNUS
So far you haven't answered Friend as to why exactly you posted the second TravisJ45 post. Was it indeed because you saw that [GregStafford] appeared in the name-recognition box, and you realized you had to do some damage control? I do wonder about that.

RESPONSE
I thought I addressed that in one of my posts. Anyway, I did not see the first post, or the name beside it, until I posted the second one. That is why both were made by “Travis.” I think the main mistake I made was the manner in which I sent up the first post, as one defending my replies, which was, however, my intent. But the content was not as it should have been, nor was the tone.

I believe what I said, but I should simply have introduced the character in a different way. What I said was in haste and a result of my attempt to stay involved in the discussions I started. I sounds odd, because it is odd, very odd! And I have done what I can to make sure that I can do what my Bible-trained conscience will allow, and still serve the people I love, my brothers and sisters in faith. I still do not know a perfect way that I could have done what I tried to do, but I can think of a better way, now. I am now trying to simply move into the Apok mode and blend in as best as I can, but in the end I believe what I am doing is for the good, and so I am not overly concerned about my continuing participation here, nor its detection. What happens will happen, and I will deal with the consequences, should there be any. That really should not have been an issue, and I regret bringing that up, also, but, basically I was forced to explain what really happened, to prevent further misunderstanding.

CYGNUS
Also, I don't believe you've answered my queries regarding your own personal ambition verses your conscientious activity on boards like this. Apparently you don't feel it's wrong to spend lots of time on H2O (this post alone must have taken at least half an afternoon to construct). You don't believe that sacrificing your own ambitious quest for positions of responsibility are worth rigorous presentations of rebuttal against JW critics here on H2O and abroad?

RESPONSE
Sorry, but I did not see that one either!

Actually, Cygnus, this is probably one area where you do not know me very well. I appreciate my position in the congregation because it allows me to expand on ideas and concepts and share them with others, that hopefully will build their faith in God, His Son, and in His Word, and also help them be more objective, which I think is an attractive quality for people to display, especially when you are trying to convince them of where to place their faith!

I spend a lot of time dealing with biblical subjects, and I have a desire to share what I find with others. But “positions” as such have no meaning for me. In fact, I have often thought of giving it up simply because a lot of what is done lacks a certain objectivity, and does not always allow for a person to expand on topics of particular importance, since there are outlines and other materials to be followed, sometimes to the “t.” There is no shortage of brothers who can accomplish these assignments, but there is a shortage out here, and in print. There are simply too many issues to address, and too few persons willing to address them. But I think more and more of the friends are seeing the need to be aware of our shortcomings, and the need for legitimate answers to legitimate questions.

Still, I can bend. I am not one who has to have his way or always speak what is on his mind. There is a time and a place, and there are also responsibilities that come with being a servant in the congregation, not all of which are the most pleasant to deal with! I am very concerned with misinformation that is spread in books, journals and on web pages like this one, about my faith, and my organization. Since there are too few who seem to care much about protecting our beliefs and organization from excessive defamation, I do put my obligation as a Christian to defend the faith above other positions of responsibility, for the aforementioned is itself a position of responsibility, though not an official one, of course.

I have made many mistakes in the past, I continue to makes mistakes now, and I know I will make mistakes in the future. But those mistakes are controllable to a certain degree, and so I apologize, once again, for those mistakes that I have recently made, that were in fact within my control, though prompted a bit by external factors. These mistakes do not change my view of AF’s arguments, of his attitude in certain situations, and my belief that he should apologize for spreading lies about me on this board, and possibly elsewhere. But whether I get that from him or not is irrelevant to my objective of doing what I can, as an imperfect human in need of a savior, to help bring some balance to the discussion of keys issues as they relate to Jehovah’s Witnesses and Bible doctrines as a whole.

Best Regards,

Greg

- Jehovah's Witnesses Defended

Follow Ups:

- *Apology Alan 09:20:26 11/10/99 (5)
  - **Apology disko 10:23:50 11/10/99 (4)
    - ***Apology Alan 13:44:24 11/10/99 (3)
      - ****Apology To A Moron 18:48:21 11/10/99 (2)
        - *****Apology Moderator102 20:14:03 11/10/99 (1)
          - ******Apology Rick 00:57:07 11/11/99 (0)
- *Apology YaYa 01:23:46 11/10/99 (0)
- *Apology Lobo 19:06:29 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology Julie 17:28:24 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology Gedanken 14:10:44 11/09/99 (3)
  - **Apology Rick 16:22:41 11/09/99 (2)
    - ***Apology Gedanken 09:06:48 11/10/99 (0)
    - ***Apology COMF 18:15:02 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology Cygnus 11:31:31 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology AF 10:30:37 11/09/99 (18)
  - **Apology Lobo 19:37:46 11/09/99 (0)
  - **Apology Julie 17:23:59 11/09/99 (2)
    - ***Apology AF 18:49:49 11/09/99 (1)
      - ****Apology Farkel 20:07:22 11/09/99 (0)
  - **Apology Rick 16:19:44 11/09/99 (13)
    - ***Apology Farkel 20:11:55 11/09/99 (0)
    - ***Apology COMF 19:22:25 11/09/99 (0)
    - ***Apology 5GJW 18:54:13 11/09/99 (0)
    - ***Apology AF 18:53:20 11/09/99 (7)
      - ****Apology IBelieve 19:33:38 11/09/99 (6)
        - *****Apology AF 20:47:11 11/09/99 (0)
        - *****Apology Lobo 19:49:43 11/09/99 (1)
          - ******Apology AF 20:49:06 11/09/99 (0)
        - *****Apology COMF 19:49:28 11/09/99 (2)
          - ******Apology Rick 20:46:18 11/09/99 (1)
            - *******Apology COMF 21:36:06 11/09/99 (0)
    - ***Apology Al; 17:54:12 11/09/99 (1)
      - ****Apology Link- try Again 17:58:04 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology Farkel 09:48:44 11/09/99 (5)
  - **Apology GP 14:08:41 11/09/99 (4)
    - ***Apology Farkel 15:34:46 11/09/99 (3)
      - ****Apology COMF 19:11:58 11/09/99 (0)
      - ****Apology AF 18:20:02 11/09/99 (0)
      - ****Apology here ya go! 16:05:36 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology Polly 08:25:16 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology Welcome Back 07:38:10 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology J.H. 06:40:21 11/09/99 (3)
  - **Apology disko 07:21:41 11/09/99 (2)
    - ***Apology COMF 19:44:33 11/09/99 (1)
      - ****Apology disko 04:47:26 11/10/99 (0)
- *Apology Friend 06:14:32 11/09/99 (30)
  - **Apology COMF 19:06:20 11/09/99 (1)
    - ***Apology Friend 19:40:31 11/09/99 (0)
  - **Apology AF 10:32:51 11/09/99 (25)
    - ***Apology Friend 12:45:58 11/09/99 (23)
      - ****Apology AF 13:50:26 11/09/99 (21)
        - *****Apology Friend 15:21:14 11/09/99 (19)
          - ******Apology AF 18:17:29 11/09/99 (18)
            - *******Apology IBelieve 19:44:22 11/09/99 (2)
              - ********Apology AF 20:30:04 11/09/99 (1)
                - *********Apology IBelieve 16:42:49 11/10/99 (0)
            - *******Apology Friend 19:23:56 11/09/99 (14)
              - ********Apology AF 20:26:29 11/09/99 (13)
                - *********Apology Friend 21:09:18 11/09/99 (12)
                  - **********Apology AF 23:40:57 11/09/99 (4)
                    - ***********Apology Friend 06:30:04 11/10/99 (3)
                      - ************Apology AF 13:07:45 11/10/99 (0)
                      - ************Apology Cygnus 11:08:13 11/10/99 (1)
                        - *************Apology Friend 11:25:21 11/10/99 (0)
                  - **********Apology COMF 21:43:39 11/09/99 (6)
                    - ***********Apology Friend 21:55:42 11/09/99 (5)
                      - ************Apology COMF 21:58:28 11/09/99 (4)
                        - *************Apology Friend 22:04:35 11/09/99 (3)
                          - **************Apology COMF 22:13:37 11/09/99 (2)
                            - ***************Apology YaYa 23:11:35 11/09/99 (0)
                            - ***************Apology Friend 22:17:33 11/09/99 (0)
        - *****Apology Friend 15:18:54 11/09/99 (0)
      - ****Apology AF 13:50:17 11/09/99 (0)
    - ***Apology Friend 12:40:02 11/09/99 (0)
  - **Apology J.H. 06:25:55 11/09/99 (1)
    - ***Apology Friend 06:38:08 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology COMF 05:48:26 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology Al; 05:08:33 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology truthseeker 04:38:01 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology Duncan 02:17:23 11/09/99 (0)
- *Apology practicus 02:09:32 11/09/99 (3)
  - **Apology Polly 06:47:37 11/09/99 (2)
    - ***Apology truthseeker 07:29:47 11/09/99 (1)
      - ****Apology Polly 07:48:35 11/09/99 (0)

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