# ***QUESTION FOR MR. B

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Posted by Bibleman [Bibleman] on November 05, 1999 at 23:07:52 {6xiCHW3gJ2MSSTtTA17sslyACFuF8c}:

In Reply to: **QUESTION FOR MR. B posted by DaJahVeu on November 05, 1999 at 19:01:38:

Hi DaJahVeu,

You know enough now to graduate.

What your problem is, is that you are "presuming" that when the Jewish secular day began at nightfall that the CALENDAR DATE changed at that time as well.

Now the Jews were not backwards. We change the CALENDAR at Midnight for a specific reason and that is because it makes each calendar day exactly the same length. The Jews had the same concept. Though in practice, they would sometimes refer to a certain day as the "15th" or "14th" just as a general reference, even though TECHNICALLY the calendar date didn't change.

So you are getting confused over the specific DATING of these days.

Now there are two ways out of this:

1) You can just ignore the dating and just focus on the Jewish days in which these events occurred.
That seems easiest. That is, just look at Jewish tradition, which I can tell you now is perfectly in harmony with the scriptures and the events during the last Passover. That tradition says that on Preparation, which is Nisan 14, all the leaven was removed from the house by Noon. Then the lambs were sacrificed in the afternoon around 3:00 p.m. which was the normal time for the evening sacrifices. And that means that by evening time, it became the "first day of unfermented cakes" which was the Jewish sabbath day that began at sunset. That means that the Passover meal was actually eaten on the sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes. And that's perfectly okay, since Passover is eaten in the same night that the Jews left Egypt.

And that's the critical point. Passover is eaten to celebrate the "NIGHT" the Jews left Egypt and they left on the first day of unfermented cakes.

We know this because they were to celebrate this day and make it a national holiday and it is the 15th that is made the national holiday. Once you understand this, then it's hard to get confused.

That is, if you understand that Passover is eaten with UNFERMENTED CAKES on the first day of UNFERMENTED CAKES.

2) Now the second way is to graduate to the reality of the complexity of when the Calendar Date actually changed per the Bible and per Jewish custom. I'll just say that different persons change the date at three different times. One is right at sunset, one is at nightfall and one is at Midnight. So depending upon that, you have to make an adjustment with the scriptures.

That is, if you are changing the date to the 15th right at sunset, then you must understand that passover would be considered to be eaten on the 15th and not the 14th.

But you might say, that conflicts with the Bible!

Well, it does. But that is not because Passover is not eaten on the sabbath of the 1st day of unfermented cakes, but because in the Bible the official CALENDAR DATE, especially in ancient times after the Exodus did not change until Midnight.

That's why, for instance, the day of Atonement, which is on the 10th, is said to begin on the 9th IN THE EVENING and end on the 10th IN THE EVENING. And likewise, the first day of unfermented cakes begins in the evening of the 14th, not the 15th.

Now that is not too hard to understand. Let's just presume that that is true. If that is the case, even though the sabbath day began at sunset on the first day of unfermented cakes, if Passover was only eaten up until Midnight, which it does end at Midnight, then you could say that Passover was eaten on Nisan 14th.

And that is what you're dealing with now.

In general there were two major celebrations on this holiday of the first day of unfermented cakes. Right after sundown was Passover Seder meal which was eaten up until Midnight, when the angel of death came. Then the next day was another celebration, a solemn assembly where they had a special Noontime meal as well as a "solemn assembly." This is called the "festival of unfermented cakes."

Both these special celebrations happen on this very same sabbath day. BUT....

Because the actual date doesn't change until Midnight, when speaking in terms of the calendar date, which is the 14th versus the 15th, etc. It works out that Passover is said to be eaten on Nisan 14th and the festival of unfermented cakes on Nisan 15th. Which is true. But we know that it is the same ceremonial day of the first day of unfermented cakes.

So that's what I meant about graduating. If you need to get technical about the dating, you must understand per Jewish tradition and/or the Bible as to when the actual calendar date changed versus when the sabbath days, began, etc.

And you must also realize that sometimes they generalized this. It was not wrong to say the Day of Atonement was on the 10th, but that was general, because the first 6 hours from sunset to Midnight actually fell on the 9th. But the Bible goes back and gives us that detail so we are not confused.

So this is what you have to do. You have to graduate. You have to completely dismiss the false concept that just because the sabbath day began at sunset that the DATE changed at that time also. It did not.

In the early days and likely in a technical sense even during Jesus' time, the actual DATE did not change until Midnight. But even in ancient times, the secular day began at NIGHTFALL and ended at NIGHTFALL. It was only the sabbath days that began earlier after sunset. So the sabbath days were longer than the normal day.

Jewish tradition NOW follows this. It begins the sabbath after sundown but doesn't end that day until nightfall when a candle is lit representing the start of a new day. This is current Jewish tradition.

The Bible at Matthew 27:62 CONFIRMS this. That is, it confirms the standard secular day began at nightfall, but that the sabbath day began at sunset. And this has not changed for the Jews in all this time.

BACKGROUND:
Now here is some background to think about to help you along. Two things:

1) Sunset is a very specific time of the day and there is no problem knowing when it occurs. But haven't you noticed how the Jews go through an elaborate process of determining exactly when "twilight" is? They have special cloths that have two colors on them, I think green and blue, so that near nightfall when you can't tell between the two colors they know it's the next day. That's because the days for the Jews followed the "natural day", which is when the last bit of direct sunlight left the sky it ended that "day" and a new day began. So that is why there is all this fuss over the colors. Or you may have heard they consider the day ended when everything goes to silhouette, which means there is no color. That's when they ended their day on a weekly basis. Except their sabbath days began about 1-1/2 hours earlier at sunset. So that was something special. When the day ended, they lit a candle to celebrate the new day.

Again, even though they began the sabbath day early at sunset, they did not end it at sunset, but at nightfall.

Thus when the Bible said to celebrate the SABBATH DAYS (not every day) from "evening to evening" it was inclusive. "Evening" referring to the time from the evening of one day through the evening of the next day. Thus the sabbath days had two evenings.

Now here's the second background clue:

2) The hours of the day. Generally, the hours of the day don't always work out. But if you will notice, the sixth hour is considered to be Noon. Thus the 12th hour of the day, six hours later was at 6:00 p.m. or at sunset when the days were close to being even. But please note that this is still part of that day. The 12th hour is part of the previous day even though sunset is supposed to begin a new day.

The first hour of the day, therefore, is the time during which nightfall occurs. So DUSK when it was still some light from the sun, was considered still to be part of that day. Only when the light of the sun waned to the point where there was no color did they consider that day ended. So their official secular day, on a regular basis, really happened from nightfall to nightfall. Their sabbath days began at sunset but still ended at nightfall and included two evenings. And the naming of the hours of the day reflected that, because sunset did not start the hours of the day over, but it began the 12th hour.

So this is RESEARCH and factual information to help understand why Passover is always spoken of as being held on Nisan 14th and never Nisan 15th, even though it is the same 24-hour period.

What you must focus on, if you are confused, is that the Jews ate the Passover the very same night they left Egypt. Period. So if you can figure out what night they left Egypt then you know the Passover was eaten that same night from sunset until Midnight.

The confusion comes in because, like us, people wanted the days to be even and so the CALENDAR DATE changed conveniently at Midnight. So for the Jews who 6 days out of the week began their secular day at nightfall, and on the seventh day at sunset, each secular day was composed of parts of two calendar dates.

And that is why the Bible has to clarify this sometimes, such as stipulating that the first day of unfermented cakes (though the actual main celebration of the festival was on the 15th) actually began on Nisan 14th IN THE EVENING.

So the Bible is not confused about the dating, we are generally. And certainly the WTS who thinks that the date changed from 14th to 15th at sunset as well. And because of that, they are confused.

And if it is still confusing, just realize that the current Jewish tradition is exactly the same as in ancient times. The passover meal is eaten on the first day of unfermented cakes, a sabbath day, from sunset until Midnight when they end that meal. Then the next day they have the festival of unfermented cakes. But it is the same 24 hours.

Only today, they don't make that distinction and they just claim they celebrate passover on the "15th". But it is not the 15th on the calendar! Passover is actually eaten the evening before on Nisan 14th.

That is, on a Jewish calendar you'll always see "Passover" dated on Nisan 15th. But it is understood the Jewish day begins the evening before at sunset. So even now, technically, Passover seder, which ends at Midnight, is eaten and over on the 14th.

And that is how it goes. People like the WTS take advantage of this complexity to manipulate the dates around. But when you study Jewish tradition and practice it becomes clear why Passover is considered to be eaten on Nisan 14th in the evening.

Hope that was a help...or I'm sure you're totally confused, right?

Cheers,
Bibleman

Follow Ups:

- ****QUESTION FOR MR. B DaJahVeu 05:19:32 11/06/99 (4)
  - *****QUESTION FOR MR. B Bibleman 09:32:50 11/06/99 (3)
    - ******QUESTION FOR MR. B DaJahVeu 10:58:18 11/06/99 (2)
      - *******QUESTION FOR MR. B Bibleman 15:57:44 11/06/99 (1)
        - ********QUESTION FOR MR. B DaJahVeu 18:31:12 11/06/99 (0)

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