Posted by Bibleman [Bibleman] on November 02, 1999 at 17:08:40 {.c1iAaocfMMSSTtTA17sslyACFuF8c}:
In Reply to: PASSOVER FOR BIBLEMAN posted by DaJahVeu on November 02, 1999 at 10:44:49:
Any comments?
You mean besides "ROFL"?
You've completely rewritten this history for yourself to make it fit your idea that Jesus must die on Nisan 14th at all costs.
But the fact is that the Bible does not say that Jesus ate that meal on Nisan 14th as you say.
The fact is that the tradition of how Passover was celebrated at the time of the Exodus was before the temple arrangement was set up wherein the sacrifices were brought to the temple. That was the orthodox Jewish practice.
At least you are realizing now that Jesus and his disciples would have had to have broken tradition with the "apostate Jews" in order for him to eat Passover on Nisan 14.
So my comments are that you are ignoring a lot of facts in order to force Jesus to eat Passover on Nisan 14th.
Still you are contradicting Luke 22:7. Luke 22:7 says that Jesus sent his disciples out on the very DAY that the lambs were customarily sacrificed. The lambs are sacrificed customarily on Nisan 14th by the Jews, whether right or wrong. That means it was Nisan 14th, plain and simple.
But you are still using a "loophole" to confuse this issue and that is the presumption that even though the Jewish day went from sunset to sunset, that the Jewish DATE did the same. So here is where that is incorrect.
First of all, the actual secular DAY went from nightfall to nightfall. It was only the SABBATH DAYS that went from "evening to evening" which is not the same as "sunset to sunset". That is, the Jewish sabbath days started earlier than the normal Jewish secular day which began at nightfall and ended at nightfall.
Just for the record, sabbath days still begin at sunset for the Jews, but continued until nightfall of the following day when a candle is lit to signify the beginning of a new day.
Still, that did not mean that they considered the CALENDAR DATE to change at sunset or at nightfall.
How do we know this? Because the sabbath days involved two different calendar dates!
So here are some quotes for you:
Note these references for the Day of Atonement:
Lev. 23:27 "However, on the tenth of this seventh month is the day of atonement. A holy convention must take place for you, and you must afflict your souls and present a an offering made by first to Jehovah."
Now that is a direct and simple reference which dates the day of atonement on the 10th of the seventh month. But, at this time, the actual DATE did not change at sundown or in the "evening" but it changed at Midnight. Thus note the more precise reference as to the precise dating for this day:
Lev. 23:32: "It is a sabbath of complete rest for you, and you must afflict your souls on the NINTH of the month in the evening. From evening to evening you should observe your sabbath.
So we have here the day of atonement now being said to begin in the evening of the NINTH of the month, even though before it stated that the day of atonement was on the TENTH of the month.
This is understandable if the actual CALENDAR DATE changed at Midnight, which is a practical time to change the date, and the first six hours belonged to one date and the last 18th hours of the sabbath day to another. That is what the reference to the "evening of the ninth" is all about, because it was still the ninth up until Midnight.
Now consider specifically the timing and dating of the seven days of unfermented cakes:
Lev. 23:5, 6: "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the two evenings is the passover to Jehovah. 6 And on the FIFTEENTH day of this month is the festival of unfermented cakes to Jehovah. Seven days you are to eat unfermented cakes. On the first day you will have a holy convention occur. No sort of laborious work may you do... On the seenth day there will be a holy convention. No sort of laborious work may you do."
What this tells us is that the first day and the seventh day of unferemented cakes were sabbath days, where no work was to be done. These sabbath days would be from "evening to evening." But note exactly what evening these seven days begin as we read in Exodus. Note, specifically, that in this case the specific festivals are mentioned. That is the "passover" specifically is held between the two evenings on Nisan 14th and thus represents the actual sacrifice of the lamb. The actual "festival" of the first day of unfermented cakes is held at Noon on Nisan 15th. But if the CALENDAR DATE didn't change until Midnight, then that would mean that the sabbath day of the unfermented cakes would have 6 hours on Nisan 14th. Thus note specific dating given in Exodus which begins the seven days of unfermented cakes on Nisan 14th:
Exodus 12:15 "SEVEN days you are to eat unfermented cakes. Yes, on the first day you are to take sourdough from your hosues, because ayone eating what is leavened, from the first day down to the seventh, that sould must be cut off from Israel. And on the first day there is to take place for you a holy convention, and on the seventh day a holy convention. No work is to be done on them. Only what every solu needs to eat, that alone may be done for you."
Now note exactly when the seven days of unfermented cakes begin:
Verse 18: "In the first month, on the FOURTEENTH DAY OF THE MONTH, IN THE EVENING, you are to eat unfermented cakes down til the twenty-first day of the month IN THE EVENING. Seven days no sour dough is to be found in your houses..."
So note, there are 8 CALENDAR DAYS, but only seven secular days which make up the seven days of unfermented cakes, the first and last of which are sabbath days, beginning on NISAN 14TH IN THE EVENING! So the first part of the evening of the seven days of unfermented cakes is held in the evening of Nisan 14th. Here are the seven days from Nisan 14th in the evening to Nisan 21st in the evening:
One -- Nisan 14/15 (SABBATH)
Two -- Nisan 15/16
Three -- Nisan 16/17
Four -- Nisan 17/18
Five -- Nisan 18/19
Six -- Nisan 19/20 (PREPARATION)
Seven -- Nisan 20/21 (SABBATH)
So you see, each secular day for the Jews were a combination of two CALENDAR DATES.
Now how do we know that the date ended at Midnight?
Because the Passover meal ends at Midnight. That is when the angel of death killed the firstborn of Egypt. Thus partaking of the meal up until Midnight was symbolic of saving one from the angel of death. But after that, there was no significance in eating the passover, so it was specifically ended at Midnight. But this was called "morning" in the scriptures, just as we call "morning" the time after 12:01 a.m.
Here are the specific instructions regarding how the passover meal was to be eaten:
Exodus 12:6 "And it msut continue under safeguard by you until the fourteen day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenigns... 8 And they must eat the flesh on this night. They should eat it roasted with fire and with UNFERMENTED CAKES along with bitter greens...And you must not leave any of it over until MORNING, but what is left over of it till morning you should burn with fire."
Now if Midnight was the time that the CALENDAR DATE changed from Nisan 14th to Nisan 15th, then of course, "morning" would be an appropriate term for a new day. The angel of death struck at Midnight. And the Jews down to this day end the Sedar meal at MIDNIGHT. Please also note that the meal is eaten with UNFERMENTED CAKES. So what is the explanation?
Simple. The first day of unfermented cakes began at sunset of Nisan 14th. It remained Nisan 14th until Midnight when the date changed. The passover mean was eaten during this period on Nisan 14th until morning at 12:01 a.m. when they burned anything left of the meal. At that point it became Nisan 15th. Then later that day at Noon, they had a solmen assembly and another special "passover" meal.
And that's why:
1) Passover is said to be eaten on Nisan 14th.
2) Passover is eaten with UNFERMENTED CAKES.
3) The meal is said to end at "morning" since the date changed at Midnight.
4) The "festival" of unfermented cakes is held on Nisan 15th, but it is the same day the Jews left Egypt.
5) That's why the date Nisan 14/15 is a sabbath day since that is the day of Memorial the Jews left Egypt. That's the day they are celebrating, Nisan 15th.
Thus, that is how Jesus could eat the Passover on Nisan 14th up until Midnight and still be arrested on Nisan 15th.
So when you presume that just because the Jewish day went from evening to evening, it does not automatically mean the date changed at evening. In fact, it did not. The days went from the evening of one date to the evening of another. Atonement went from the NINTH in the evening to the 10th in the evening. And the first day of unfermented cakes went from the evening of Nisan 14th to the evening of Nisan 15th. Two calendar days involved.
So from this we know that the calendar date did not change when the secular day changed. And we know from the "morning" reference about ending the meal and per Jewish custom, that this meant immediately after Midnight, which was when the angel of death struck. Thus we know that the actual calendar date, which began a new "morning" occured at Midnight per the custom of the Jews when they first left Egypt.
So it is an ERRONEOUS presumption that the DATE changed at sundown when it did not. It's understandable that that would be the case, but it is not based upon historical fact nor on Biblical reference.
Re "between the two evenings".
I'll just say this for now, since I want you to comment on my comments above. That this was an important time for the sacrifice of the lamb. Josephus records the lambs customarily sacrificed during the temple period in his day occurred at 3:00 p.m. The Mishna requires the lambs to be sacrificed during the "hour of prayer" which is from 2:30 to 3:30. And Jesus specifically would have fulfilled dying "between the two evenings" when he died at around 3:00 p.m. in harmony with this. So for Jesus to fulfill dying "between the two evenings" that time period must be around 3:00 p.m.
So my concept of events is that when Nisan 14th came around, at 3:00 p.m. they killed the lambs and then prepared them to be eaten that evening. After sundown it became the sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes, but it was still Nisan 14th until Midnight. They ate the Sedar meal up until Midnight of Nisan 14th after which they destroyed leftovers when it became "morning" at 12:01 a.m., Nisan 15th. Then at Noon there was a solemn assembly and another special passover meal. All the time from the "evening of Nisan 14th until the evening of Nisan 15th" was the SABBATH day usually referred to as just Nisan 15th.
This was a SABBATH DAY because this was the day the Jews left Egypt, Nisan 15th. They didn't leave Egypt on Nisan 14th and Nisan 14th was not made a sabbath day (except the last 6 hours).
To this day, the Jews celebrate the Passover meal on "Nisan 15", that is Nisan 14/15th.
If the lambs were sacrificed at the same time Jesus actually died, at around 3:00 p.m., then Nisan 14th would have been nearly over by that time. But this is consistent with Luke 22:7 which says Jesus sent his disciples out on the day the lambs were sacrificed, meaning those lambs must have been sacrificed later in the day.
All works out just fine if Jesus sent his disciples out in the morning, they prepared for the meal that afternoon with one of them taking the lamb to the temple since they were in Jerusalem and that was the custom, but at sunset, the sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes began and they ate the Passover meal up until Midnight, at which time it became Nisan 15th. So if it was Nisan 15th, a sabbath day, Jesus could not have died that day.
That being the case, what other choice is there except that Jesus must have died later that week on the day before the next sabbath day during Passover Week?
See my problem?
Any comments?
Thanks.
Cheers,
Bibleman