Posted by Bibleman [Bibleman] on November 01, 1999 at 04:37:13 {2gTL9dbN6kMSSTtTA17sslyACFuF8c}:
In Reply to: **the evils here posted by DaJahVeu on October 31, 1999 at 16:20:24:
Interesting comments.
What you need to understand first and foremost is that the Passover is eaten on the first day of unfermented cakes. Things are a little confusing because of the difference in the end of the secular day (at nightfall), the beginning of a sabbath day (at sunset), and the end of the CALENDAR DAY (which varies, some at nightfall, or at Midnight as we do today.)
The most important thing to realize is that Passover is held on the first day of unfermented cakes. That is why the meal is eaten with unfermented cakes. Nisan 14 is a day of "preparation" for the sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes.
Think. The Jews were to make a big deal out of this day so they made it a special sabbath day. No work and a solemn assembly on that day at Noon.
They had the Passover meal that previous night just 18 hours earlier. So ask yourself, what day that is? It's not Nisan 14th but Nisan 15th.
So no matter what time you change the date, whether at sunset, nightfall or Midnight, Passover is still held after sunset of the day the Jews actually left Egypt which was Nisan 15th (Numbers 33:3).
Once you realize this then it is simple to understand that it was in the afternoon at around 3:00 p.m. (the same time Jesus died) that the lambs were sacrificed and when sunset came around, it became the "first day of unfermented cakes". That meal ended at Midnight and they held a solemn assembly and special meal at Noon on the 15th to celebrate the day they left Egypt.
Therefore, Jesus did, indeed eat that Passover meal just 18 hours before Noon of Nisan 15th.
There is confusion since in ancient times, as did the Egyptians, the Jews did begin their sabbath day at sunset but still didn't change the official CALENDAR DATE until Midnight. Thus when it was said that they would "not leave any passover meal over until the morning", they meant the technical morning that began at 12:01 a.m. just as we begin our morning at 12:01. That's because it was thought wise in those days to have all the CALENDAR DAYS exactly the same length.
But that is why the Bible clarifies often these special days. On the day of Atonement, example, the actual celebration is held on the 10th of the seventh month. But the actual day begins from the "evening of the ninth". That's because the actual DATE didn't change until Midnight and each ceremonial day, thus was part of two different calendar dates.
Likewise, the seven days of unfermented cakes do not begin on Nisan 15th, but begin "on Nisan 14th, in the evening."
I bring this up so you won't be confused over Passover being held on Nisan 14th.
So here's how it worked. On Nisan 14th, by Noon, all leaven was removed from the homes. The lambs were sacrificed at a specific time of the "evening sacrifice" around 3:00 p.m. This is confirmed by both the Mishna and historically by Josephus who says during the temple period the lambs were sacrificed from "the ninth to the eleventh hours."
This is consistent with Jesus dying at that specific hour.
But at sunset, it became a new ceremonial day. The Witnesses think that this also changed the date from Nisan 14th to Nisan 15th. But this is not so. Regardless of that, in ancient times the calendar date didn't change until Midnight and so since the meal had to end at Midnight (as it still does per Jewish tradition), even though it became the first day of unfermented cakes at sunset, it was still Nisan 14th until Midnight.
So you have the very strange situation where "Passover" is always spoken of as being held on "Nisan 14th" whereas the festival of unfermented cakes is held on Nisan 15th. It is, but they are the same ceremonial day that begins at sunset of Nisan 14th through nightfall of Nisan 15th.
Those are the technicalities.
But sometimes just for convenience, the entire day beginning at sunset is called the "15th". So there is confusion.
So to keep things correct, the simplest way to look at this is to realize no matter when you begin the "15th", whether at sunset, nightfall, or Midnight, by 12:01 it was Nisan 15th. Passover is held the evening before the Jews left Egypt and they left Egypt on Nisan 15th. Passover is eaten ON THE FIRST DAY OF UNFERMENTED CAKES.
Knowing that, then, we can say that Jesus was arrested on Nisan 15th. But as you say, he could not have died on Nisan 15th because it was a special sabbath day and they didn't execute persons on a sabbath day.
Therefore, you have no other choice but to move Jesus' death to the next "day of preparation" which was Nisan 20th.
SO VERY IMPORTANT POINT: I do not advocate Jesus dying on Nisan 15th nor the same day he was arrested, but on Nisan 20th.
This is totally Biblical.
Why?
1. For one, Jesus already said he would be in the grave for "three nights" (Matthew 12:40). That requires him to die on a Thursday afternoon. (i.e. Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night -- he rose on Saturday night). Nisan 20th was a thursday.
2. Jesus died on the day before a sabbath which was a preparation day. Nisan 20th was a preparation day before the "passover" high sabbath day of Nisan 21st, the 7th day of unfermented cakes.
3. Jesus rose one day after a sabbath day. That is correct since he rose on a Sunday. Thus the two sabbatah days in a row, Friday the 21st and Saturday the 22nd, allowed for Jesus to die one day before a sabbath and to rise one day after a sabbath and still be in the grave for "three nights." That's because two sabbath days are involved.
4. John 19:14 mentions "preparation for passover" which means this was not the usual "Friday" preparation for the sabbath, but preparation for a special sabbath day during "passover." That day was the "passover sabbath" day of Nisan 21st, that Friday.
Therefore, once all is considered, knowing that Passover is held on the first day of unfermented cakes which becomes Nisan 15th at least by Midnight, and knowing Jesus actually ate the traditional passover with his disciples, we can only conclude that Jesus was arrested on Nisan 15th.
Since Nisan 15th was a Saturday in 33CE and only one night away from Sunday, we know he could not have died on that day, besides that day being a "sabbath" day. Jesus died on a day of preparation, the day before a sabbath day.
That leaves us only one alternative and that is that Jesus must have died on the following day of preparation, which was Nisan 20th, a Thursday. That is confirmed since that would mean Jesus would be in the grave for "three nights" as was prophesied.
Therefore, it is a false teaching that JWs have that Jesus died on Nisan 14th. He really died on Nisan 20th.
And, of course, just of note, if Jesus died on a Friday afternoon, just before the sabbath day of the 15th, then that's only TWO NIGHTS! Friday night and Saturday night. Jesus rose on Saturday night. So in order for the WTS to explain this, they have to tell us that Jesus didn't really mean "three nights" but he only actually meant "two nights." Of course, we're not accepting that.
Neither does the Society address the direct historical time the orthodox Jews officially killed the lambs, AT THE TEMPLE, as recorded by Josephus, which was from around 3:00 p.m., the very same time Jesus died.
So Jesus did fulfill the "between the two evenings" part of the symbolism of Passover by dying at the ninth hour, the usual time for the evening sacrifices. He also still symbolically is the "Passover lamb"; his dying on Nisan 20th doesn't change that symbolism. But he didn't die on the same day the actual lambs were sacrificed for Passover. After all, how could he and still have the Passover mean with his disciples?
So the WTS has this wrong. It's not that hard to understand now and everything works out when you move Jesus' death to Nisan 20th, Thursday.
Also it is not hard to extend the events we usually consider happening all in one day. Such as four trials within just 3 hours.
Jesus is said to have been impaled at the 3rd hour, which was 9:00 (a.m. or p.m.). In the one-day scenario, therefore, since he wasn't taken to the Sanhedrin until after sunrise, he had to be seen at the Sanhedrin first, then taken to Pilate, then sent to Herod, then sent back to Pilate, then led out to Calvary, all during a period from about 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m., a period of only three hours!
Plus John 19:14 clearly says his trial was at Noon, yet it got dark at Noon per other gospels.
So how is it he is impaled at 9:00 a.m., it gets dark at Noon, and yet he's still on trial before Pilate at Noon (sixth hour)?
It doesn't work for the one-day scenario.
It works perfectly when you move Jesus' death to the appropriate date.
The actual chronology is, John 19:14 says Jesus' trial was "de-preparation for passover", that is, at the sixth hour (Noon) before preparation for passover. The Greek conjunction "de" (but) used in front of a specific time of th day indicates just before that period.
Thus since preparation began that evening at nightfall (only sabbath days began officially at sunset), this was the afternoon period just before preparation for Passover and so this was really Noon on Wednesday, Nisan 19th. Thus the trial was held on Wednesday at Noon, Nisan 19th, Jesus was led out to Calvary that evening. Simeon wsa "coming from the field" when he was hired on to help Jesus, likely a day worker in the fields, and by the "third hour" that NIGHT, at 9:00 p.m. Jesus was impaled.
He was thus on the torture state from 9:00 p.m. that evening until the next day when at Noon it got dark and he died three hours later at the ninth hour (3:00 p.m.) on Nisan 20th, the day of "preparation for the passover" sabbath of Nisan 20th. He was in the grave that Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night during which he rose before 3:00 a.m., fulfilling Matthew 12:40 which requires Jesus to be in the grave for "three nights."
So there you have it. Beautiful. Non-contradictory.
One other scripture which might be a problem is the verse in John where it says that the Jews didn't want to enter the palace because they wanted to "eat passover."
This was around Noon when they brought Jesus to pilate. The term "de-early" was specific for just before the "early" watch. There were two "early" watches. The early morning watch which was 3:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m. And the "early evening" watch which was from Noon until 3:00 p.m. This was just before the (de-early) "early" evening watch beginning at Noon, which is the normal time Pilate dealt with the people. But this was also just before they were to eat their special "passover" Noontime meal. So they didn't want to enter the palace so they could "eat passover" lunch. "Passover" was a general term for many things occurring for that whole week.
So the official Passover or Seder meal had been eaten that evening. It was still Nisan 15th and the special solemn assembly passover meal at Noon was about to take place when they presented Jesus to Pilate and that's why they had him come out to them rather than become unclean as they wanted to "eat passover" special noontime meal. This is not a reference to the actual Passover meal.
But the WTS also understands this and agrees with it.
I hope this has been some help.
Jesus died on Nisan 20th, not Nisan 14th.
Know this.
Cheers,
Bibleman