# Response to AF: Part Six

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Posted by Greg Stafford [GregStafford] on November 02, 1999 at 11:44:57 {.c1iAaocfM/CPYT8orz2XxZ4XktaQ.}:

SECOND RESPONSE TO AF, PART TWO

:AF
Posted by AF [AF] on October 17, 1999 at 23:59:48 {xnZRR2e5zI1EwaxRomAMdaOt1gg/Zk}:
Start of Part 2

ALAN_2
For our discussion the interesting forms of "divine direction" are being "commissioned by Jehovah" and "praying God for more of his holy spirit and for his guidance of us by the bestowal of his spirit through Jesus Christ." Let's examine them.

Being Commissioned
A "commission" is an assignment, deputation, task, errand, responsibility, mission, authority to act, warrant, mandate, charge, trust, appointment, etc. "To commision" means to authorize, empower, delegate, deputize, assign, charge, entrust, appoint, ordain, place in office, employ, hire, etc. The basic notion implies both a commissioner and one being commissioned. A literal commission always implies direct action on the part of the commissioner.
In these senses the inspired Ezekiel was certainly directly "commissioned" by God in that He directly assigned him to do various tasks. The interesting question is what it means to be indirectly commissioned, and if that even makes sense at all, especially in terms of the Bible. One can speak metaphorically, using language like "so to speak" to make an analogy, but one should not confuse the reality with the metaphor. To speak of an indirect commission is to use a metaphor, as I will show with some examples.

GREG_2
Who made the claim about “indirect commission”?

ALAN_2
:: There are also degrees of validity of such metaphorical language. For example, suppose Julia writes a cookbook and Cindy uses one of Julia's recipes to make Chicken Kiev. We might say that Julia instructed Cindy in how to make Chicken Kiev, but that would only be in a manner of speaking because Julia didn't directly instruct Cindy. Julia might even be dead.

GREG_2
Even in this instance it would not be indirect instruction, but direct instruction, for Julia is the author of the cookbook; the thoughts and recipes are hers. The fact that she put them in writing merely changes the instruction from verbal to written.

ALAN_2
:: Most everyone understands the limits of this kind of language. In particular, it would be absolutely wrong to say, even metaphorically, that Julia "commissioned" Cindy to make Chicken Kiev.

GREG_2
Of course, for in the context of a “cookbook” one does not meet with “commission” language, and a “cookbook” is generally not considered to be “alive” and to “exert power”! (Heb 4:12) So, from the start, you presented a false analogy. You also appear to be operating under the same misconception that permeated your Part 1, namely, that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not accept active guidance from God. That is not true at all. As even you alluded to in your Part 1, there is a sense in which God’s holy spirit actively guides true Christians, which would certainly include those who serve in the highest position of responsibility in the Congregation. But there is another sense in which we are guided by what we read in God’s Word, which can be active in the sense that God’s Word is said to be alive, though it is more correctly viewed as passive guidance.

ALAN_2
:: Now suppose Karl writes a manifesto strongly calling for people to rise up in revolution against their governments, and then he dies. Vlad takes this to heart and starts a revolution. Did Karl instruct, guide or direct Vlad? In a manner of speaking, yes. Did Karl commission Vlad? Clearly not.

GREG_2
Oh boy.... One of the problems you are having, Alan, is, not only your false analogies, which are significant in that God’s Word is not some “manifesto” that merely calls for others to do certain things. But it is your failure to recognize our acceptance of God’s direct, active guidance BECAUSE of how we respond to His Word. It is the product of inspiration, and it is said to be “alive.” Your friend Karl also, I assume, is not available for prayer, does not promise to be with those who draw close to him, and does not have the power to move those who read his manifesto to take certain steps so that his will could be accomplished.

ALAN_2
:: We can say - keeping mind our metaphor - that Karl directed Vlad, but we know very well that in reality Karl did not, since they never met. It would obviously be ridiculous for Vlad to claim that Karl literally guided, directed or instructed him.

GREG_2
Oh, but did you not just say: “Did Karl instruct, guide or direct Vlad? In a manner of speaking, yes.” The question of whether it is LITERAL guidance, direction or instruction is moot, especially since you have apparently limited your definition of literalness to verbal direction/guidance/instruction. Guidance is just as LITERAL if it in the form of a book, tape, or some other medium that accurately captures the thoughts of one person, as meant for another.

ALAN_2
:: It would be a real stretch for Vlad to say that Karl commissioned him to revolt, since the idea of "to commission" generally implies action by the commissioner toward the one assigned. For propaganda purposes Vlad might well claim that Karl had commissioned him, but to remain truthful he'd have to remember that his commission was indirect, and just a metaphor.

GREG_2
Again, Vlad is not God, who sees into the hearts and thought of men of the present and future, in relation to the outworking of His purposes, which is why He can prophecy things in relation to certain persons or groups of persons, who will be involved in the completion of His purposes. Such persons are actively guided by God, and passively/actively instructed by His Word. There is a lot more going in the life of a Christian than what you have presented in this false analogy about Karl and Vlad! And therein lies part of your problem...

ALAN_2
:: Today a great many Evangelical and Pentecostal churches, as well as the Mormons and other Christian groups, claim to read and understand the Bible. They take pride in evangelizing their message to the world of mankind. They take seriously Jesus' command to his followers to preach about their notion of God's Kingdom. Many of them feel that God and Christ have commissioned them to preach, to bear witness to the world in their behalf. Is such a claim to have been commissioned by God - in fact, to continually receive up-to-the-minute "divine direction" - validated by the simple fact that they read and claim to understand the Bible? Of course not. They can metaphorically claim a divine commission, but in reality they have only their interpretation of the Bible that they say gives them a commission. And unless they claim direct inspiration, they'd better remember that such a commission is indirect and a metaphor.

GREG_2
No, there is also the possibility that God directed their actions in harmony with His will. A person need not experience inspiration in order to be actively guided by God. Indeed, God even guides the hearts and thoughts of the kings of the earth to turn against Babylon the Great! (Rev 17:17) Do you honestly believe that the ten horns and the wild beast will knowingly experience inspiration? No, God’s directing their hearts/thoughts to carry out His will need not be the result of their claiming direct inspiration, NOR need it mean that they are thereafter not capable of imperfection or gross sin. Of course, the more in harmony they are with God’s Word the less imperfections are likely to surface, and so it is with those who regularly read and apply what they read from God’s Word, apart from invalidating traditions. Christians are similarly guided by God in the outworking of His purposes, one of which is the proclamation of His kingdom, and another is the sanctification of His name.

ALAN_2
:: What about the phrase "to bestow a commission on"? That is a stronger notion than "to commission", since it means "to convey a commission as a gift". While the notion of "commissioning" can be stretched via "in a manner of speaking" to include the actual situation of a person's taking a commission upon himself while the commissioner remains passive, the notion of "bestowing a gift" necessarily means direct action on the part of the bestower.

GREG_2
I am glad you understand these rather simple concepts. I hope that when you use them for some discussion that revolves around a confusion about the meaning of such terms, that it proves useful. But why are you telling me what I already know, here, and now?

ALAN_2
:: Otherwise no gift was bestowed - the "receiver" got hold of the gift himself. It would be insane for Vlad to claim that Karl bestowed a commission on him. To claim that someone "bestowed a commission" on a person is, therefore, to claim that the commissioner directly and literally commissioned the person.
The Watchtower Society tends to ignore these ideas when it is talking about how its leaders act on what they read in the Bible. For example, the April 1, 1972 Watchtower that you quoted on pages 268-9 of JWD1 says this:
Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel's work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom.
Ezekiel could rightly be said to have been commissioned by Jehovah, but is it really fair to say that, parallel to Ezekiel's commissioning, Jehovah also commissioned these "anointed followers of Jesus Christ"? Not at all.

GREG_2
A simple reading of the above quotation will reveal that they do not draw a parallel (though I believe I [and they] rightly could, to some extent) between Ezekiel’s commissioning and their own. No, they draw a parallel between, in this quotation, their “work” and that of Ezekiel.

ALAN_2
:: Both you and the Society will today admit that God did not directly commission them, since that would be inspiration.

GREG_2
That is absolutely incorrect. From where are you getting this idea? Of course God directly commissioned them. However, they were not directly commissioned to give forth prophecy like Ezekiel, but to “bring the truth of God’s Word to the people” (“Wanted--A Messenger,” WT, 3/15/72, 186). So, again, how did you conclude 1) that they do not believe they were directly commissioned by God, and 2) that being directly commissioned by God necessarily involves inspiration?

ALAN_2
:: What those men actually did was to read the Bible, decide that God wanted to commission someone to do a warning work, and take it upon themselves to act on their understanding. So taking up this commission is only done in a manner of speaking and not in reality, just as Karl did not commission Vlad to do anything except in a manner of speaking. So did God literally "give" a commission to these men? No, for that would require direct action on his part towards them.

GREG_2
Of course it would! Again, you are building upon a misunderstanding of our view. Also, your use of the false analogy involving Vlad and Karl will not help you here, and you have absolutely no way of knowing what God did and did not do as far as commissioning a group of people early in this century, to bring forth the unadulterated truth of His, proclaim His name and kingdom, and establish by means of His spirit and earthly organization that reflects genuine love and concern for each other and for their fellow man, and who take seriously, more seriously than any other international, religious group on the planet, Jesus’ commission to make disciples of people of all the nations.

ALAN_2
:: You said, on page 269 of JWD1, that "this commission is given to all who will accept and fulfill it." To be fair, then, you'd have to admit that Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Mormons, etc., who "accept and fulfill" Christ's commission to preach have just as much right as do Jehovah's Witnesses to claim that God gave this commission to them, and just as much claim to "divine direction".

GREG_2
Just prior to your quotation of my “this commission is given...” are the words, “But they have been ‘commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God’s Messianic kingdom and to give a warning to Christendom.’” So, of course, any Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Mormons, or person from any other religious group may accept this commission. But that would mean they are no longer Evangelicals, Pentecostals, or Mormons, for they would be warning those in Christendom, which includes Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and Mormons! I am not sure how you missed my/our understanding of what this commission involves, since, again, it is in the sentence just prior to the one which you quoted, but you did.

ALAN_2
:: On page 270 of JWD1 you discussed some material from the article "Wanted: A Messenger" in the March 15, 1972 Watchtower. In particular you discussed the question that the article posed, "Was there any group on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission to speak as a "prophet" in His name, as was done toward Ezekiel back there in 613 B.C.E.?" Unfortunately, you entirely missed the fact, as I explained above, that "to bestow a commission" on someone means a direct appointment. This alone negates your arguments on the next few pages of your book.

GREG_2
Hardly. You have missed the whole point of my argument, which is quite obviously to explain in what sense they are a “prophet.” Thus, this section is entitled, “‘A prophet was among them.’” In your reply you have consistently misunderstood my view about God’s having directly appointed the “slave” class, and His ACTIVE guidance of them. You are confusing the active guidance He gives in response to prayer and right-hearted service, with the guidance that can be found in His Word, even though you yourself outlined these differences in Part 1! If you do not understand my view, then please ASK me for clarification. I have NEVER argued against a DIRECT appointment of the “slave” class. They have been appointed to “bring the truth of God’s Word to the people” (JWD1, pages 270-271) which results from their proper interpretation of Scripture. Unfortunately much of what you have written springs from a misunderstanding of these issues. For example:

ALAN_2
:: Furthermore, the quoted question itself along with the answer given in the follow-on article in the April 1, 1972 Watchtower, i.e., "this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ", does not equate the work done by these "anointed followers" with the work done by Ezekiel, but equates the bestowing of the commission on these "anointed followers" with the bestowing of the commission on Ezekiel. In fact, the March 15 Watchtower makes a point of emphasizing that these "anointed followers" did not merely decide on their own to accept a commission that was "given to all who will accept and fulfill it", but that Jehovah actively bestowed "the commission" upon them and them alone (p. 189):
Therefore, when it came time for the name of Jehovah and his purposes to be declared to the people, along with God's warning that Christendom is in her "time of the end," who qualified to be commissioned? Who was willing to undertake this monumental task as Jehovah's "servant"? Was there anyone to whom Jehovah's heavenly "chariot" could roll up and whom it could confront? More accurately, was there any group on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission to speak as a "prophet" in His name, as was done toward Ezekiel back there in 613 B.C.E.?

GREG_2
Of course, I quote this very point on page 270 of JWD1. You are simply attacking a straw man. They most certainly do claim to have been commission by God. But since I am dealing with the question of how they parallel the work of Ezekiel in their role as a “prophet,” which is the primary focus of the two articles. As you admit, they do not parallel Ezekiel in their “work,” and they make it clear that their commission involves, not the proclamation of inspired messages like Ezekiel, but bringing “the truth of God’s Word to the people.” Again, you have missed the point entirely, and are arguing against a position that I do not hold!

ALAN_2
:: Indeed, the article goes on to talk about "the group that is truly commissioned as God's messenger" and "the group that Jehovah has commissioned as his `servant' or messenger" and "the identity and work of Jehovah's commissioned messenger". In light of the above, these expressions clearly do not refer to a mere taking up of a commission by the "anointed followers" but to a direct commission, a bestowing of a commission on them by Jehovah himself.

GREG_2
Yes, Alan, yes.... Who disagrees with this? Certainly not I. The commission was given to the faithful Bible Students early in this century, according to our belief, and now it is available to all who choose to accept it. If you continue to argue along these same lines, missing entirely the point of my posts and my book, I will simply give a brief comment, repeating what I have already said. I hope you return to the real issues about which we disagree, soon. While you are at it, you might also consider apologizing to this list about what you have falsely stated as my position, since they have no doubt been greatly misled by your claims.

ALAN_2
:: Of course, these "anointed followers" were actually the leaders of the Watchtower Society in 1919, so just as critics have said, the Society has claimed that their "appointment" was due to direct action by God - for all practical purposes, a form of inspiration.

GREG_2
That is a non sequitur. It does not follow at all that those who are commission by God for a special work are thereby inspired to carry out that work. There is quite a difference between being inspired, where your thoughts and actions are taken over by God, and having the aid of His holy spirit, which can serve to MOTIVATE a person in a certain direction, if their heart and thoughts are willing. But the most significant FACT is that those who claim to have been commissioned by God have consistently and repeatedly DENIED ever having been inspired by God! Therefore, whatever YOU think the commissioning can be said to mean, they specifically tell you what it did not mean in their case. There is no “double-talk” at all involved in their claims, for they have never claimed to have been inspired. Double-talk is when there is a claim not to be something and a claim to be that same something, at the same time. But you are banking on your interpretation of certain language they use, to mean what you think it means, when they have all along, and consistently, said what it does not mean. So you have not proven anything relative to your claims at all, and merely denied the most significant evidence in the process. And yet you have the temerity to claim:

ALAN_2
:: So, Greg, by ignoring the context of the line you quoted from the March 15, 1972 Watchtower, you made it say exactly the opposite of what it really said, and so the arguments you give on the next few pages which are based on it are invalidated. I have no doubt that this oversight was accidental, as this is a subtle point, but such oversights permeate Chapter 9 of JWD1.

GREG_2
The only oversights that are present, Alan, are those you consistently read into what I wrote, which are the result of your ignorance of the context of my words, the intent of the particular section in which they are written, and your failure to note the most obvious claims made and not made by the Society relative to the commission they received, the work they were given to do, and the means by which they do it. I am not so certain this failure on your part was accidental, for I perceive you are far too intelligent to have so easily fooled yourself. My points were rather obvious, as were those made by the Society, and yet you still, somehow, misconstrued them to have claimed inspiration (!) and stated that I deny their having been directly commissioned by God.

ALAN_2
:: Guidance by Holy Spirit
Now let's consider some aspects of "praying God for more of his holy spirit and for his guidance of us by the bestowal of his spirit through Jesus Christ."
This is an extremely fuzzy concept in the theology of Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm aware of no place in Watchtower literature where this concept is clearly and forthrightly explained.

GREG_2
And here you are assuming that it is something that CAN BE “clearly and forthrightly explained,” when it is actually something that has to be experienced. It is indeed difficult to explain just how God’s holy spirit works upon His people; we simply pray for it to work upon us, and look at the results to see if it has done so. Because there is no ‘inspirational’ operation of God’s holy spirit today, or least not one that we recognize as having occurred in reference to any member of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the operation of God’s spirit can only be identified in relation to the works that are carried out in relation to His purposes; they cannot be defined on the basis of esoteric experiences, unless it is merely a subjective definition given from an individual’s point of view. Again, Jehovah’s Witnesses have consistently denied and never affirmed being inspired by God’s spirit. Therefore, when they say it has ‘helped,’ ‘guided,’ or ‘directed’ their ministerial work, they mean that they believe God has responded to their requests for aid, and worked with them in their efforts to glorify His name and make His kingdom known. Even persons in Christendom who profess gifts of the spirit, one of which is the gift of prophecy, do not claim to have been inspired in the same sense as the apostles, which is why even in orthodox denominations where such gifts are claimed to be at work, what comes as a result of such “prophecies” is not considered canonical material. So rather than impose your own preconceived views about what group means by what they say, why not let them tell you what they do and do not mean? The answer is obvious: It would undercut your line of argumentation.

ALAN_2
:: Obviously, while JWs invoke it, they don't understand it. ::

GREG_2
You assume 1) that you have to understand what you invoke, rather than merely accepting what is invoked, and 2) that you must FULLY understand it. You have not shown that no understanding exists in the minds of those JWs who request God for His holy spirit. You merely assert it.

ALAN_2
:: This actually makes it easier to invoke, since they don't have to deal with its messy edges.

GREG_2
There are no “messy edges.” This is a false characterization on your part. We know of God’s promises to be with and support those who endeavor to do His will, and so we rely on Him to supply us with what we need, when we need it. In reviewing different events and activities we attribute all those things we see as fulfillments of those promises to Him. There is nothing “messy” about it, as far as we are concerned.

ALAN_2
:: How important is this concept? Note the following from the July 1, 1973 Watchtower, page 402:
Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah's organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or active force. (Zech. 4:6) Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book. Many persons of the world are very intelligent, capable of understanding complex matters. They can read the Holy Scriptures, but they cannot understand their deep meaning. Yet God's people can comprehend such spiritual things. Why? Not because of special intelligence on their part, but as the apostle Paul declared: "For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God." (1 Cor. 2:10) Jesus Christ praised his heavenly Father for 'hiding such things from the wise and intellectual ones but revealing them to babes.' (Matt. 11:25) How very much true Christians appreciate associating with the only organization on earth that understands the "deep things of God"!
Direction by God's spirit enables Jehovah's servants to have divine light in a world of spiritual darkness. (2 Cor. 4:4) For instance, long ago they understood that 1914 C.E. would mark the end of the Gentile Times or "appointed times of the nations," during which the Gentile nations were allowed uninterrupted rulership of the earth. (Luke 21:24) This 2,520-year period began with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple by the Babylonians in the late seventh century B.C.E. For example, Zion's Watch Tower of March 1880 had declared: "'The Times of the Gentiles' extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then." Only God by his holy spirit could have revealed this to those early Bible students so far in advance.
Note the fuzzy things that are touched on by these comments: "divine direction" of the JW organization, revealing the deep things in the Bible, "correct" interpretation of "Bible chronology". Also note this extremely important point here illustrated: whether stated explicitly or not, the idea that "holy spirit" somehow operates so as to give far more understanding to JW leaders than they could have gotten unaided always underlies their claim that they are merely guided by their reading of the Scriptures.

GREG_2
No, not at all! For they are not “merely guided by their reading of the Scriptures.” Did you not read what I wrote on page 275 of JWD1, under the very same subheading that we discussed earlier in relation to the commission given to Ezekiel and to the “slave” class? I wrote:

“In this vein, note the following comparison made between Ezekiel’s message and that of Jehovah’s Witnesses today:

What was Ezekiel given to eat? . . . No less so, as Jehovah’s anointed witnesses of today examined the prophetic book of Ezekiel and other parts of Jehovah’s Word they found just such a message for Christendom. . . . Similarly in the year 1919 C.E., the "roll of a book" that the anointed remnant of Jehovah’s dedicated servants ate up did not picture the book of Ezekiel. It pictured all those parts of God’s Holy Bible that have to do with the spiritual plagues and the "great tribulation" that are to come upon Christendom and her religious and political associates during this "time of the end." The anointed remnant of today ate up this "roll of a book" in that they accepted the commission and responsibility to deliver all these messages of God’s Word as He by his spirit made them plain and understandable to His witnesses.-- ‘The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah’—How? (Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1971), 71-72, 76.

Indeed, as is the case with all who study the Bible, we need God’s spirit to make His word clear and understandable. Proverbs 2:1-5 tells us to search for understanding and discernment, that we might eventually find the very "knowledge of God." This involves continual study and searching through God’s Word in order to find wisdom and meaning in what He has authored.”

END OF QUOTE FROM JWD1

GREG_2
There is no denying, but, rather an affirming (!) on my part of the need for “God’s spirit to make His word clear and understandable.” The Nations Shall Know book also clearly states that God “by his spirit made them [the messages of His Word] plain and understandable to His witnesses.” Of course we believe this! But we also realize that while we confidently put faith in what we understand from God’s Word, believing that He has revealed it to us, this is not due to having been inspired by God to understand this things, but because we believe Him when He says in His Word that He will help His people and guide them in their search for truth and understanding. You have complicated and mishandled our view of the operation of God’s spirit, which, AGAIN, has repeatedly and emphatically been characterized as non-inspired direction from God. I do not know of any professing Christian who does not believe that God aids him or her in his or her study of the Scriptures, and in arriving at an accurate understanding. Indeed, it is usually a part of the opening prayer of the non-JW services and study sessions I attended some time ago, for them to ask that God “guide them into all truth.”

ALAN_2
:: That explains why the Society said that to it and it alone "God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book" and that others, no matter how intelligent and how hard they to understand the Holy Scriptures, "cannot understand their deep meaning. Yet God's people can comprehend such spiritual things."

GREG_2
It is because we believe we are God’s people that such a claim is made. It is a belief on our part, due what we see happening in the world around us. But, again, this is a BELIEF based on what we see, not on some inspired experience that any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses have had, which they, again, have consistently denied having.

ALAN_2
:: But does God really reveal such "deep spiritual things" to JWs by means of holy spirit?

GREG_2
We believe this has happened, but we believe it based on what we consider the resulting evidence of such guidance, not because one or more JWs experienced an overshadowing of God’s inspirational power. Again, you need to properly distinguish what we believe is true, and what really does take place. You do not, of course, have to agree with us. You clearly do not. But that does not give you license to go around and misrepresent our view, either, saying that it amounts to the very thing (inspiration) that we have denied taking place, consistently and repeatedly, without ever having affirmed that inspiration has played a part in the holy spirit’s guidance of our studies.

ALAN_2
:: Note again that the above quote said with respect to early WTS leaders' "understanding" of the Gentile Times end in 1914, "Only God by his holy spirit could have revealed this to those early Bible students so far in advance." Is that really so? No, because as the 1993 Proclaimers book finally admitted (p. 134), a number of other commentators prior to C. T. Russell had also "pointed to 1914 as a significant date."

GREG_2
They can both be true, of course, just as earlier groups had recognized that the Trinity doctrine is a false teaching, we can also say, based on our belief in God’s promises and our prayers to Him for guidance, that He, by His spirit, helped Russell recognize that this teaching was in fact false. That others recognized the same thing that Russell came to believe, does not have anything to do with whether or not God took advantage of Russell’s right-hearted inclination, and moved him in a certain direction in his study of chronology. But, perhaps God did not move him at all in this matter, and merely worked with Russell in laying out certain important issues in His Word that He wanted His people to closely consider, so as to be ready and alert, even if they could not at the time entirely grasp the significance of what they were reading. You are assuming far too much about what would have to be in order for something else to also be the case. You have unnecessarily limited the possibilities, and fail to see the different ways God’s spirit could most certainly have worked with Russell, and, what is more, even it is did not, there is nothing out place for us to BELIEVE that he was used by God and that God’s spirit guided Him to certain conclusions. We have to look at the evidence, test the conclusions, and see what can be justified. Russell NEVER claimed inspiration; again, he emphatically and regularly denied it. So until you come to grips with the subjective element in our view of how the holy spirit worked through Russell and works through those today who rely on God’s strength and not their own, then you are not going to properly understand what WE mean, by the way WE talk.

ALAN_2
:: In fact, Russell got the entire "1914 chronology" along with his notion of "the Gentile times" ending in 1914 from N. H. Barbour, a Second Adventist. I'm sure that virtually all of Jehovah's Witnesses would reject a claim that these men, aside from Russell, were influenced by holy spirit in coming up with their ideas on 1914.

GREG_2
We would? What makes say that? Again, you are assuming far too much! If it is our view, and it is, that prior to the events of 1914-1919, Christendom was God’s representative, then how do you conclude that “virtually all of Jehovah's Witnesses” would not accept the view that certain members of Christendom who relied on God’s spirit could not be influenced by God’s holy spirit? How do you know that God did not initially intend to use N. H. Barbour but instead worked with Russell, who responded to other teachings that were more in line with His Word? Again, you are far too limited in your thinking and outlook, and you assume far, far too much about what God would or could do, and what we believe about the operation of His holy spirit.

ALAN_2
:: The fact that the Society cannot explain in concrete terms just what effect "holy spirit" has on JWs is illustrated by this "Questions From Readers" in the August 1, 1985 Watchtower, page 31:
How does the holy spirit work along with the modern-day Governing Body in the appointment of elders?
The apostle Paul told Christian elders from Ephesus: "Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son."-Acts 20:28.
Paul did not explain in detail how God's spirit functioned in such appointments. However, we can gain insight from what occurred when the first-century governing body considered a question concerning circumcision. . .
The article goes on for some time, but never gives a direct and clear answer to the question it pretended to answer.

GREG_2
That is because, as I said before, there is not clear-cut way to define how God’s spirit works, and it is not necessary for us to know just how it works, for us to know and believe that it DOES work. Indeed, the very fact that they do not give personal testimony from one of their members, shows that not one of them claimed to have had an experience with God’s spirit such that they believed they were inspired to give forth new understandings of God’s Word. We believe and accept that God will help and work through His people; we do not need to be able to define it.

ALAN_2
:: Note that the expression "gaining insight" used here is just another way of saying, "we don't have a clear answer". Similarly, the Society is unable to give a clear answer to the more general question of how "holy spirit" teaches and leads JWs, or how this "holy spirit" guides and directs the JW organization.
Of course, Greg, you provide no answer in your book either. I imagine that's partly why you didn't want to give an answer to my question (3) but referred me to your book.

GREG_2
You imagine incorrectly. You asked me about the use of a word, but failed to provided a context in which the word is used. I do not answer such ill-prepared questions. I asked you for a context, and you still could not provide one! I then referred you to my book, since you refused to give a context to your question, which is necessary for one to properly answer it.

:: AF
:: (4) Does your notion of "divine direction" differ from the published views of the Society, and if so in what ways?
: GREG
: To which "published views" are you referring?
:: AF
:: Whatever ones cover the range of understanding that the Society wants JWs to have of the term. You decide.
: GREG
: I believe my Chapter 9 contains several examples from their writings, accompanied by my view of their use of such language.

ALAN_2
:: Ok, I read the section of JWD1 "Guidance = Inspiration?". As near as I can tell, your notion of "divine direction" is the same as the published views of the Society, since you quote WTS publications to state your views and give little personal opinion on the direct definition.
I will now comment on several problem areas.
On page 279 of JWD1 you wrote:
Clearly there is a considerable difference made in the writings of Jehovah's Witnesses between the guidance given to those men who wrote the Holy Scriptures, and the guidance one gains from reading those Scriptures. . . If being directed by God means being governed theocratically by means of his Word, then others must be charitable and use the proper understanding as communicated in Witness literature.
The problem here is that, as I explained above, JWs hardly ever claim to get just the "guidance one gains from reading those Scriptures."

GREG_2
And here is where you “problem” is manifest: *I* am discussing those areas or sections of their writings where they claim the guidance from God that comes from reading and studying His Word. That is the kind of guidance that gives rise to statements of assurance, namely, that they are directed by God. Any other type of guidance, such as that which might result from the leadings of His spirit, is a subjective judgment viewed in hindsight with respect to the accomplishment of a certain activity or achievement that is viewed as being in line with the fulfillment or promises found in God’s Word. *I* am responding to the false claim that JWs are false prophets, and that they claim to be inspired prophets. As I reveal in my book, and as can be seen by reading the literature of Jehovah’s Witnesses from just about any decade over the past one hundred years or so, they most certainly do claim, with absolute confidence,
to have the “guidance one gains from reading those Scriptures.” But what you do not understand or refuse to accept is the subjective element that is a part of any professing Christian’s relationship with God, one that manifests itself in the life of each person, to a lesser or greater degree, and in different ways, namely, the reliance upon and the assurance that one does in fact have God’s spirit to lead and guide them in their walk. You have missed the whole point of my Chapter nine, and just about everything else I have said to this point.

ALAN_2
::Always underlying such statements is the often unstated claim that only God by his holy spirit gives them an understanding that they could not possibly have gotten on their own.

GREG_2
I do not know of any person who devoutly professes faith in God, Jesus, and in the Bible, who does not believe that the “helper,” God’s spirit, guides them in their study and understanding of the Scriptures. There is a marked difference between such confidence, and one’s having been overcome with the power of God’s spirit, so that His thoughts are forced upon the heart and mind of the believer. We believe God gives us the proper understanding because that is what we pray for, and such a prayer is indeed in harmony with His will. So unless we are shown to be wrong, or until we arrive at what seems to be a more correct understanding, we confidently hold to those things that seem to be right and good, in harmony with God’s Word. But we do not now, nor have we EVER claimed to have been overcome with God’s spirit, to the point where He inspired any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to understand a portion of His Word, or receive new revelations in addition to it. Until and unless you show that you understand the difference, you will continue to stumble over imaginary “problems,” that are the result of your misunderstandings.

ALAN_2
:: And of course, this "divinely imparted understanding" is not given to the rank and file, or even to "the anointed" generally, but only to JW leaders - the Governing Body and perhaps those they designate.

GREG_2
Are you quoting something when you say "divinely imparted understanding"? Also, I have already shown that our view is one that most certainly DOES allow for non-anointed persons to have “God’s word put into their mouths.” That was the point behind my citation of the Revelation book. But you are here failing to recognize our view of the TIMING of God’s working through the anointed locusts and the great crowd of cavalry. And there is absolutely nothing in our literature that says anything about non-anointed persons not being led by God’s spirit. My quotation of the WT Q&R in my first reply specifically refutes this point. We acknowledge that God works through the Governing Body for decisions of organizational importance, and they are most certainly receptive to understandings communicated to them from members of the great crowd. Again, the WT Q&R that I quote made it quite clear that non-anointed members could have a more thorough and accurate understand of certain doctrines. How could this be if God is only directing or leading the anointed in their study of the Scriptures. You need to rethink your position, Alan, and comment only after you have an accurate understanding of the point about which you wish to speak, which in this case is one that you should have rethought more carefully in light of what I said and quoted in my first reply. Otherwise it makes it hard for me to respond in a kind, professional manner, without drawing too much attention to embarrassingly inaccurate remarks you have made.

ALAN_2
:: Therefore your overall argument - that when JW literature says that JW leaders receive "divine guidance" they receive it simply by reading and understanding the already-inspired Scriptures - is false.

GREG_2
No, your understanding of my arguments are limited and reflect a deficient knowledge of our views. I made it quite clear in my Chapter 9 of JWD1 that we are most certainly actively guided by God, in our belief. The issues about which I am speaking revolve around a much different issues, and you simply have not caught onto the key issues I am addressing, apparently.

ALAN_2
:: In fact, your own argument presented on page 281of JWD1, along with the above Watchtower quote, proves that Watchtower leaders do in fact claim for themselves something far beyond a good ability to understand the Scriptures - for all practical purposes they claim inspiration. Here's what you wrote:
It cannot truthfully be said that to be inspired by God to produce flawless information is the same as being guided or lead [sic] by a flawless source, whether that source be the Scriptures or an angel sent by God. Why? Because in the former case the person is taken over by God, given a vision, revelation (sometimes in a dream), or put into a trance. The person then receives God's thoughts and will, which are then channeled through the individual, providing information he or she would otherwise not have known. However, in the latter case one could simply misunderstand or ignore the directions given, which would make the accuracy of what they do or say dependent upon whether or not they correctly understood the inspired source.
Note the bolded phrase above: "providing information he or she would otherwise not have known". An inspired person certainly receives such information. Conversely, anyone who receives such information is inspired.

GREG_2
It is hard to imagine how you could read the above, and even quote it for all to see, and then offer such a horribly inaccurate conclusion. Alan, were my remarks on what constitutes an inspired person limited to receiving “information he or she would otherwise not have known”? It is so transparently obvious from the above quote from my book that what constitutes an inspired person is one who “is taken over by God, given a vision, revelation (sometimes in a dream), or put into a trance.” So, you have not followed the simply logic of what I wrote, which would be, “anyone who is taken over by God, given a vision, revelation (sometimes in a dream), or put into a trance, and who under such conditions receives information he or she would otherwise not have known, is inspired.”

Notice also how the end of the bolded portion of your quotation of my book connects with the next sentence: “The person THEN receives God's thoughts and will, which are then channeled through the individual, providing information he or she would otherwise not have known.” You are so hopelessly out of touch with my arguments that I regret having spent five minutes going over this with you.

ALAN_2
:: Indeed, as the Insight book says (V1, p. 1202), inspiration is "the quality or state of being moved by or produced under the direction of a spirit from a superhuman source." Now again consider what the the July 1, 1973 Watchtower said on page 402:
Direction by God's spirit enables Jehovah's servants to have divine light in a world of spiritual darkness. (2 Cor. 4:4) For instance, long ago they understood that 1914 C.E. would mark the end of the Gentile Times or "appointed times of the nations," during which the Gentile nations were allowed uninterrupted rulership of the earth. (Luke 21:24) This 2,520-year period began with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple by the Babylonians in the late seventh century B.C.E. For example, Zion's Watch Tower of March 1880 had declared: "'The Times of the Gentiles' extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then." Only God by his holy spirit could have revealed this to those early Bible students so far in advance.
Clearly, information that could only have been revealed by God's holy spirit to those early Bible students fits the bill for "providing information he or she would otherwise not have known".

GREG_2
We have already discussed the different uses of “guide,” “direct,” “reveal,” and still you are confused, or deliberately misapplying the sense of the terms to further your own ends. Of course, you jump from a later 80s source and combine it with an early 70s WT to try and make your point! Tell me, Alan, does the Insight book say anything under about the modern group of Jehovah’s Witnesses under “Inspiration”? How many times will you have to be told that Christians believe that every proper understanding and application of Bible doctrine and prophecy is the result of God’s spirit? Learn to distinguish between our confidence in God’s backing, and BELIEF that He guides and directs our interpretations of His Word, from those who claim to have been “taken over by God, given a vision, revelation (sometimes in a dream), or put into a trance,” which is the context surrounding my arguments, a context which you have chosen to avoid.

ALAN_2
:: Thus The Watchtower and you have proved the contention of many JW critics: for all practical purposes Watchtower Society leaders claim inspiration.

GREG_2
The above comment is so far removed from logical and fair analysis of the primary data, data which has always emphatically denied and never affirmed the very thing you read into the Society’s writings, that I will not offer any further comment, beyond what I have already said.

ALAN_2
:: My contention is further proved by the fact that the Society itself has said that it was not WTS leaders who determined both their unique interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 and their application of it to themselves, but God himself:
*** w57 6/15 370 ***
Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah's channel of communication for our day, that we may continue in his favor. Listen to the inspired answer to the situation, in Matthew 24:45-47 (NW): "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings." And has he? Yes, particularly since 1919 has it been true that he has appointed the collective body of the anointed remnant over all the visible interests of the Kingdom. The "slave" then became responsible not only for ministering to the needs of the anointed body members but also for taking on the responsibility of preaching the good news of the established Kingdom to people of all nations. (Matt. 24:14) Such is true not by their determination of it, but because God himself has so directed. "God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased," is the way it is pictured in 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NW). It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.

GREG_2
I thought you were going to quote something in support of YOUR contention, not mine? All we have above is the Society’s application of Bible texts to historical events that they believe are in harmony with their interpretation, and the direction by God of which they speak is from the very texts they quote in support of their belief! God is indeed the One who spoke of ‘setting the members in the body’ and of appointing those found faithful over His belongings. We respond to the “slave” in so far as they fulfill their “commission and responsibility to deliver all these messages of God’s Word” (‘The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah’—How? [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1971], 76), being subject to correction if they fail to do so, as has been true even of the earliest Bible students of our modern age:

“The Watchtower is founded on the very pinnacle of reliable wisdom, namely, God’s Word the Bible. . . . Its vision is not narrow or shortsighted, but takes an over-all view and is farsighted enough to peer into the future, by use of recorded inspired prophecy. It views modern conditions and events in the light of God’s Word, being receptive to Jehovah’s message, and quick to declare his truths and judgments. Jehovah commands the watchman class to "call aloud, hold not back, lift up your voice like a trumpet; show my people their transgression." (Isa. 58:1, An Amer. Trans.) . . . It heralds the news of Jehovah’s kingdom established by Christ’s enthronement in heaven, warns that we live in the last days of this old world, cries out that Jehovah’s battle of Armageddon comes on apace, feeds the kingdom joint-heirs with spiritual food, cheers men of good will with glorious prospects of eternal life in a paradise earth, and comforts us with the resurrection promise for the dead. All this it does with a confident ring in its voice, because its words find their foundation in God’s Word. It is not a blind or dumb watchman, but tries to keep in tune with God by searching his Word and being receptive to his guidance, with eyes always open to prophecy so that it knows what to look for in world events, so that it understands the significance of what it sees. It does not privately interpret prophecy, but calls attention to physical facts, sets them alongside prophecy, and you see for yourself how well the two match, how accurately Jehovah interprets his own prophecy.-2 Pet. 1:20, 21. . . . However, The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic. It invites careful and critical examination of its contents in the light of the Scriptures. Its purpose is to aid others to know Jehovah and his purposes toward mankind, and to announce Christ’s established kingdom as our only hope.”---- "Name and Purpose of the Watchtower," The Watchtower, 15 August 1950, 262-263.

And:

“This journal . . . is not dogmatic, but confident; for we know whereof we affirm, treading with implicit faith upon the sure promises of God. It is held as a trust, to be used only in his service; hence our decisions relative to what may and what may not appear in its columns must be according to our judgment of his good pleasure, the teaching of his Word, for the upbuilding of his people in grace and knowledge. And we not only invite but urge our readers to prove all its utterances by the infallible Word to which reference is constantly made to facilitate such testing.”--- Mission Statement of the 1895 Watchtower.

And:

“And we still urge, as in the past, that each reader study the subjects we present in the light of the Scriptures, proving all things by the Scriptures, accepting what they see to be thus approved, and rejecting all else. It is to this end, to enable the student to trace the subject in the divinely inspired Record, that we so freely intersperse both quotations and citations of the Scriptures upon which to build.”--- "Worship the Lord in the Beauty of Holiness," No. 2, Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence, 15 December 1896, reprint, 2080.

:: AF
::(5) Do you believe that those on the Governing Body receive "divine direction" in a way that no other humans or religious groups do? If so, describe it.
: GREG
: I will partially defer to the 1952 Q&R quoted above,

ALAN_2
::That doesn't answer the question at all. That Q&R merely said that Christians receive holy spirit.

GREG_2
Then you did not read it “at all.” It was quite clear and EMPHATIC in stating that that in certain areas of interpretation members of the anointed might not even have as good an understanding of biblical matters as non-anointed JWs. You did not limit the areas of “divine direction” in your question, so my PARTIAL reference to the following Q&R is clearly relevant (Note not only the ANSWER, but the QUESTION):
*** w52 4/15 255-6 Questions from Readers ***
 Do the “other sheep” have as much of the Lord’s spirit as the anointed remnant, and as clear an understanding of Jehovah’s purposes as the anointed have?—A. M., Colorado.
If they are filled with holy spirit, how could any others have more than that? If a container is full, how can it hold more? Both classes must be equally faithful, under the same trying conditions. It is only by Jehovah’s spirit that any of us can stand. So if the “other sheep” do not have as much of the Lord’s spirit, yet have to endure the same tests and prove the same high quality of faithfulness as the anointed, they would be operating under a great disadvantage in the test of integrity. Jehovah God does not so handicap them, but gives them equal help for similar tests. Faithful men of old had Jehovah’s spirit, to write inspired scriptures, to cure lepers, to raise the dead, to cause rain or drought, to pull down pagan temples, to slay lions and bears, and to perform many other powerful works possible only with the help of God’s active force. Though not of the anointed class, they were filled with holy spirit.
The “other sheep” today perform the same preaching work as the remnant, under the same trying conditions, and manifest the same faithfulness and integrity. They feed at the same spiritual table, eating the same food, absorbing the same truths. Being of the earthly class, with earthly hopes and a keen interest in earthly things, they might interest themselves more in scriptures relating to earthly conditions in the new world; whereas the anointed remnant, with heavenly hopes and strong personal interest in the things of the spirit, might study more diligently those things in God’s Word. So because of these different personal interests the two classes might show greater interest in different features of the message, and comprehend more in those fields because of their special study of them; yet the fact remains that the same truths and the same understanding are available to both classes, and it is just how the individuals apply themselves in study that determines the comprehension of heavenly and earthly things they acquire. The Lord’s spirit is available in equal portions to both classes, and knowledge and understanding are offered equally to both, with equal opportunities for absorbing it.
So rather than the determining factor’s being whether one is of the anointed or other sheep class or not, it lies with the individual himself. One may be more willing to receive the Lord’s spirit and its guidance in his life than another, who may be quenching the spirit by not walking wholly according to its guidance. One may spend more time studying or naturally have greater mental capacities for learning than another, who may neglect study and mental training.

END QUOTE

GREG_2
As you say, our understanding comes from ‘divine direction,’ and the Q&R makes it plain that one’s understanding depends not on “whether one is of the anointed or other sheep class or not”; rather, “it lies with the individual himself,” for “one may be more willing to receive the Lord’s spirit and its guidance in his life than another, who may be quenching the spirit by not walking wholly according to its guidance.”

How you could miss these points in relation to your question is quite revealing. Are you thinking this through, really? For your claim that the above “Q&R merely said that Christians receive holy spirit” is quite startling, and reflects, along with other claims you have made, an inability or refusal to see things as they are. This is my opinion, based on the overwhelming evidence you have supplied to date about your methods of interpreting various writings.

: GREG
: but I will add that they are certainly directed differently in terms of being in a position to dispense the fruit of their research to the united body of believers across the globe, and I believe Jehovah makes that possible. So, yes, in a sense, they are used or directed differently than others. But that is my subjective view, based on what I see happening around the world as a result of their ministry.

ALAN_2
:: So are you saying that the answer to my question is that the GB is in a unique position to dispense information because of "divine direction" that only it gets? What exactly does that mean in concrete terms? Are you saying that Jehovah has a direct hand in this abundance of printing facilities, or is it an indirect hand? What about the claims of the GB itself to receive "divine direction" in interpreting the Bible? Do you allow that other groups also receive a measure of this "divine direction"?

GREG_2
The fact that you cannot understand my reference to, and the content of the Q&R quoted above, as well as my additional words, namely:

“they are certainly directed differently in terms of being in a position to dispense the fruit of their research to the united body of believers across the globe, and I believe Jehovah makes that possible. So, yes, in a sense, they are used or directed differently than others. But that is my subjective view, based on what I see happening around the world as a result of their ministry”

is almost insulting. You might want to think real hard about the very clear, very explicit answers I have given above. I have spent enough time holding your hand in this discussion, explaining and re-explaining where you have missed the point, and why what I said is relevant where I said it. What I have said above in answer to your question is quite clear.

:: AF
:: (6) Assuming you answer the above questions like I think most JWs would, does the Governing Body always represent Jehovah and does it always channel "spiritual food" from Jehovah whenever it publishes information in the official publications of Jehovah's Witnesses such as The Watchtower and Awake!?
: GREG
: They always "represent" Him in the sense that they are His people, regardless of how many mistakes they make.

ALAN_2
:: That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about representing him in the sense that makes them unique - the sense in which the July 1, 1973 Watchtower (page 402) puts it: "that Jehovah's organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or active force. . . Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book."

GREG_2
And I have already answered this question in several different ways, all saying the same thing. Your question, as with most of your reply, shows a defective understanding of the issues. My answer provides the proper view, while also giving you an answer to the question of how they “always” represent God. You question was unqualified, and needed to be answered in such a way that the true sense in which they always represent God would be made known. Again, your objection to such items in my reply shows that you are not focussed on what you have said, let alone with what I have said in reply.

: GREG
: But, no, they do not "always channel 'spiritual food' from Jehovah whenever [they] publish information in the official publications of Jehovah's Witnesses such as The Watchtower and Awake!" Otherwise everything they write would be free from error, and it is not, as they frequently admit.

ALAN_2
:: Ok, good. In what sense, then, can they claim to be "God's channel of communication"?

GREG_2
I have already told you this several times. I will not repeat myself anymore, but merely let them tell you what they mean by their use of such language:

“The Watchtower is founded on the very pinnacle of reliable wisdom, namely, God’s Word the Bible. . . . Its vision is not narrow or shortsighted, but takes an over-all view and is farsighted enough to peer into the future, by use of recorded inspired prophecy. It views modern conditions and events in the light of God’s Word, being receptive to Jehovah’s message, and quick to declare his truths and judgments. Jehovah commands the watchman class to "call aloud, hold not back, lift up your voice like a trumpet; show my people their transgression." (Isa. 58:1, An Amer. Trans.) . . . It heralds the news of Jehovah’s kingdom established by Christ’s enthronement in heaven, warns that we live in the last days of this old world, cries out that Jehovah’s battle of Armageddon comes on apace, feeds the kingdom joint-heirs with spiritual food, cheers men of good will with glorious prospects of eternal life in a paradise earth, and comforts us with the resurrection promise for the dead. All this it does with a confident ring in its voice, because its words find their foundation in God’s Word. It is not a blind or dumb watchman, but tries to keep in tune with God by searching his Word and being receptive to his guidance, with eyes always open to prophecy so that it knows what to look for in world events, so that it understands the significance of what it sees. It does not privately interpret prophecy, but calls attention to physical facts, sets them alongside prophecy, and you see for yourself how well the two match, how accurately Jehovah interprets his own prophecy.-2 Pet. 1:20, 21.” --- "Name and Purpose of the Watchtower," The Watchtower, 15 August 1950, 262-263.

And:

“10 The following year, 1932, the congregations of Jehovah’s witnesses throughout the world brought themselves under theocratic procedure, with the manifest blessing of Jehovah, until today we find the earth-wide New World society operating as did the early Christian congregation, noncommercially, nonpolitically, voluntarily on the part of each individual in it. There now is, therefore, the proper theocratic control over the Christian congregation, which control had not existed since the captivity of which Paul warned.

11 Who controls the organization, who directs it? Who is at the head? A man? A group of men? A clergy class? A pope? A hierarchy? A council? No, none of these. How is that possible? In any organization is it not necessary that there be a directing head or policy-making part that controls or guides the organization? Yes. Is the living God, Jehovah, the Director of the theocratic Christian organization? Yes!

12 Because of the vital fact that the law that governs the operation of the theocratic New World society is the Word of Jehovah God, and because of the fact that the heaven-enthroned Christ Jesus is Jehovah’s Executive Officer carrying on his work in the earth, and because of the further fact that the spirit of God by Christ Jesus is operating through his Word and upon the hearts and minds of his dedicated servants, the New World society is theocratic, meaning ‘God-ruled.’” --- "Turn to the New World Society," The Watchtower, 1 November 1956, 665-666.

And:

“Since Joel 2:28, which has its complete fulfillment after 1919, foretells that God will pour out his spirit upon people of all kinds and ‘your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions’, in what sense then do Jehovah’s witnesses prophesy today? Jehovah’s people confess no powers of inspiration today. However, they do pray continually for more of God’s holy spirit to understand the many prophecies already uttered and preserved for the final preaching work which Jehovah’s witnesses are now undertaking. They know that the inspired infallible Scriptures of prophecy will be fulfilled toward them correctly. They diligently study the visions and dreams of God’s faithful men of old. They can quote and copy the Scriptures of God’s inspired men and can apply them according to the facts. They can observe how God interprets them by Christ Jesus through the events and facts that he causes to appear. They are then faithful in publishing and preaching the revealed prophecies to the utter ends of the earth. The twentieth-century preaching prophets of Jehovah are the ones who are running to and fro over the Bible to gain knowledge of the divine pronouncements which is on the increase.—Dan. 12:4.” --- "Aids for Understanding Prophecy," The Watchtower, 15 April 1952, 253, par. 20.

GREG_2
In this way, in harmony with what I wrote in part 1 of my second reply, they serve as God’s channel of communication, looking to and relying on Him for guidance and direction, in their study of the Scriptures, studies done apart from post-biblical traditions that are recorded in the creeds and confessions of Christendom.

:: AF
:: (7) If you answer "no" to (6), then how does one determine if a particular bit of published information on an important subject is actually from Jehovah?
: GREG
: By checking what they say against what the Scriptures have to say, or by checking whatever other source(s) they are using to reach their conclusions. As they have written:
"The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic. It invites careful and critical examination of its contents in the light of the Scriptures. Its purpose is to aid others to know Jehovah and his purposes toward mankind, and to announce Christ's established kingdom as our only hope."--- "Name and Purpose of the Watchtower," The Watchtower, 15 August 1950, 262-263.

ALAN_2
:: Ok, great.
Now consider what often happens to a JW when he finds some problem with a bit of published information by doing what you said he should do. He writes a letter to the Society detailing his careful and critical examination in the light of the Scriptures and other factual information, which disagrees with a published Watchtower teaching. The Society doesn't respond, but sends his letter back to the local elders along with an inquiry about whether he's causing trouble in the congregation with his divergent views. This gets the guy in hot water with the elders, who look at him askance from then on. The elders are in no position to answer the question, and so the guy is left high and dry, without an answer from those who should have given it. Do you think that this is proper conduct by the Society? Do you have any idea how many people have quit the JW organization because of exactly this situation?

GREG_2
What we are dealing with here is attitude. I have done the very thing about which you speak, and I have NEVER received such treatment. I have always receives letters of appreciation and an assurance that such matters would be looked over and considered. I have yet to be disappointed. So unless you can post a letter from someone who wrote to the Society, so that we might analyze the content and TONE of the letter, as well as giving names and congregation information so that the behavior and conduct of the person in question can be checked up on, then you have yet to give any credible data to your rather incredible portrayal of how the Society handles questions concerning their views and opinions. Note:

“However, we should not denounce those who in a proper spirit express their dissent in respect to the date mentioned [1914] and what may there be expected . . . We must admit that there are possibilities of our having made a mistake in respect to the chronology, even though we do not see where any mistake has been made in calculating the seven times of the Gentiles as expiring about October 1, 1914. . . The general facts are much more valuable and important than merely the day or the year respecting these facts.” --- "What Course Should We Take?" The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence, 15 November 1913, repr. 5348.

GREG_2
The key point here is “those who IN A PROPER SPIRIT express their dissent.” I have expressed disagreements, and apparently I have done so “in a proper spirit,” for I have not received anything like the treatment you have mentioned.

ALAN_2
:: Now I will also point out that the Society is inconsistent in telling people that it invites careful and critical examination of Watchtower publications in the light of the Scriptures. Note this statement:
*** w57 5/1 281-2 ***
Respect for Jehovah's organization means to trust our proved, faithful brothers. These are the ones who through much hardship and experience have demonstrated that the spirit of God is with them. The rich blessing that has been poured out upon the visible organization is evidence that the governing body and those who represent it are deserving of our full support and trust. This we can demonstrate only by accepting every provision as coming from the Lord through the "faithful and discreet slave."
*** w57 6/15 374-5 Overseers of Jehovah's People ***
RECOGNIZING THEOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVES
This puts all in Jehovah's organization in a favored position, for we know that the arrangements within the organization are made by the loving provision of God. We accept them as from God and thank him for his provisions. . . Let us respond to the oversight provided as we would to God. . . We should respond with the same readiness as we would to the voice of God. . .
Zechariah, father of John the Baptist, had an experience with an appointed theocratic representative that should impress this on our minds. . . Zechariah here failed to show due respect for theocratic authority. For this failure he was struck speechless and remained that way until the birth of John. . . Obedience and respect shown to that theocratic representative would demonstrate obedience and respect for the One he represented, Jehovah God. . . While the "slave" and other appointed overseers are certainly not inspired, as were the ones used to write the Bible, yet those in the congregation show proper respect for the position they occupy by responding to counsel given because they know that this is Jehovah's provision for instructing his people at this time.
End of Part 2
AF

GREG_2
There is absolutely nothing in the above quotations about not being able to, “in a proper spirit,” question certain doctrines or policies. The Bible does tell us to pay attention to those taking the lead among us, and the anointed are to be received or rejected as representatives of Christ, as I mentioned before. We do indeed accept the provisions from the brothers as coming from the Lord Christ who shepherds the Congregation of his people, and from his God and Father. This is our belief and it in NO WAY means that we are to accept what is said or written by those claiming to be Christ’s representatives, without critical examination. Of course, you were very selective in your quotation of the material from the 1957 WT. Let’s take a look at what you omitted from your quotation, by considering all of paragraph 21:

*** w57 6/15 374-5 Overseers of Jehovah's People ***
21 This puts all in Jehovah’s organization in a favored position, for we know that the arrangements within the organization are made by the loving provision of God. We accept them as from God and thank him for his provisions. However, the apostle Paul soberly counsels: “We also entreat you not to accept the undeserved kindness of God and miss its purpose.” (2 Cor. 6:1, NW) Let us respond to the oversight provided as we would to God. Consider an application of the point. When the one appointed as congregation servant, or any of the other servants or Bible study conductors, approaches us to encourage more consistent meeting attendance or participation in the meetings, why does he do it? Specifically, it is because God instructs that we follow such a course. “Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. And let us consider one another to incite to love and right works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:23-25, NW) And now that servant has been appointed by the holy spirit to aid us in our ministry and to call to our mind the good counsel contained in the Bible to attend congregation meetings and there make public declaration of our hope. We should respond with the same readiness as we would to the voice of God. It is his means of dealing with us now.

END OF QUOTATION

GREG_2
Why did you not “consider an application of the point”? Because it would have certainly lessened the impact you were hoping to achieve. After all, if their point was that we should listen to appointed servants who “call to our mind the good counsel contained in the Bible,” then how does this conflict with their invitation to examine what they say and write, “in the proper spirit”? God set up the congregation, appoints some to shepherd, some to teach, some to evangelize, and why should we not heed the counsel they give us on matters that are clearly articulated in His Word? The thrust of the paragraphs contained under the subheading, Recognizing Theocratic Responsibility” has to do with responding to their Bible-based counsel concerning meeting attendance and the preaching work, and I see nothing wrong in ‘showing proper respect for the position [those appointed in the Congregation] by responding to counsel given.” You obviously do, but that is your problem, not mine.

End of my part 2, of my second reply to AF.

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