# ****DJV:JESUS DIES NISAN 20TH

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Posted by Bibleman [Bibleman] on November 02, 1999 at 01:06:49 {.c1iAaocfMMRXA6xmpscslyACFuF8c}:

In Reply to: ***DJV:JESUS DIES NISAN 20TH posted by DaJahVeu on November 01, 1999 at 19:17:19:

Any comments?

Yes.

First of all thank-you very much for your reply.

You answered one of my questions which was when the lambs were sacrificed. You say they were sacrificed after sundown per Jewish Law. As you noted above in my comments, Jewish orthodox law per the Mishna and historical reference by Josephus contradict this. They claim that the Jews sacrirficed the lambs in the afternoon around 3:00 p.m. So you have a conflict.

After the temple was destroyed, some Jews broke off from the Rabinnical orthodox Jewish branch and formed their own. A well-known group is called the "Karaite" Jews. They began the custom of sacrificing the lambs after sundown instead of around 3:00 p.m. But the Kariate Jews did not break off from the orthodox Rabbinical group until 700 YEARS after the temple was destroyed. So in Jesus' day, there were no Karaite Jews and thus it would be been presumed that Jesus celebrated the passover at the same time as the ORTHODOX JEWS since he was an orthodox Jew. And thus that would be as the time the Mishna outlines and as Josephus records was the times the lambs were sacrificed per Jewish law.

Furthermore, you can go to many orthodox Jewish sites and it will show you clearly that routine of the "Jewish custom" since that is what you want to establish. Basically, they will tell you that the "hamitz" (leaven) is to be removed from the homes during the 14th up until Noon, since that is when their "evening" began and they didn't want it mixed with their sacrifice.

Now note, the leaven isn't even removed from the homes until Noon of Nisan 14th. So no matter what time the lambs were sacrificed per personal custom, whether at 3:00 p.m. or later, even as late as after sunset, it still turned Nisan 15th by Midnight 12 hours later.

Now here's another historical note you may not have been aware since we're dealing with strict Jewish tradition. The WTS quotes from the "Kariate" Jews who do sacrifice their lambs after sundown 700 years after the temple period was over. But they do not begin the 15th at sundown, but at nightfall!

So it does make a difference. Why?

Because to them, it was still Nisan 14th up until nightfall. So when they sacrificed the lambs after sundown of Nisan 14th, it was just an hour or so before the date changed to the 15th. Which as I said is the traditional date the Jews ate Passover.

Now you made a specific statement about Passover being eaten on the 14th. The reason why you are confused over this is because different people call the period from sundown to Midnight different dates. Some consider the '15th" to begin at sundown (as Witnesses do), and at nightfall (as the Karaites do) and some at Midnight (as the post-Exodus Jews did). So it is important now that we make that distinction.

Of note, therefore, I wanted to forget about getting confused over exactly when the 14th ended and the 15th began and focus on exactly what day during Passover week the Sedar meal was eaten.

And that is, it is eaten on the sabbath day of Nisan 14/15.

There are two special sabbath days during Passover Week. Nisan 14/15 which is the official "first day of unfermented cakes". And the sabbath day of Nisan 20/21 which is the seventh day day of unfermented cakes.

So when you simply say "we know the passover was eaten on Nisan 14th", it depends on exactly when you are beginning Nisan 14th. Note:

If you begin Nisan 14th right at sundown, then kill the lambs right after sundown, you can eat Passover that evening and you'll still have 20 hours of Nisan 14th before the sabbath day of Nisan 15th.

Karaites: If you're a Karaite Jew and don't change the date until nightfall, then you can kill the lamb after sundown at the very end of the day of Nisan 14th and begin eating Passover before nightfall and it will still be Nisan 14th. But at nightfall it would become the sabbath day of the first day of unfermented cakes, Nisan 15th. So the Karaite Jews still celebrate Passover on the basic same DATE as the orthodox Jews.

Orthodox Jews: Of course, the orthodox Jews celebrate their Sedar meal on the sabbath day they call "Nisan 15th". But they understand that "technically" it's still Nisan 14th until Midnight.

YOUR PROBLEM:
Now your problem is that you claim that Jesus sent his disciples out on Nisan 13th which is not the day the lambs were sacrificed. Luke 22:7 says that Jesus sent the lambs out the day the lambs were sacrificed, which means per the Bible he sent them out on Nisan 14th.

MY REPEAT QUESTION:

So my repeat question to you again, is, how are you saying that Jesus sent his disciples out on Nisan 13th when Luke clearly says he sent his disciples out on the SAME DAY the lambs were sacrificed?

That is, if the lambs were not sacrificed until after sundown on Nisan 14th, then how are you saying Jesus sent them out on the same day the lambs were sacrificed?

BOTTOM LINE:
The bottom line per Luke 22:7, as far as I can see, is not matter what variable times are considered, Jesus ate that meal after sundown of the day he sent his disciples out. That means he eats the meal the day after he sends his disciples out. Yet he sends his disciples out on the very day the lambs were sacrificed.

Now that works out well for Jewish tradition since they eat the passover on the sabbath day of Nisan 14/15. But it does not work out if you have Jesus sending his disciples out on one day, Nisan 13, and then have the lambs sacrificed on another day, Nisan 14th.

So we're back at square one as far as Luke 22:7.

MAYBE I SHOULD REPHRASE MY QUESTION. Using one of your techniques. Here goes.

The Bible says at Luke 22:7 that Jesus sent his disciples out on the day the lambs were sacrificed. Everybody knows the lambs were sacrificed on Nisan 14th. So why are you saying Jesus sent his disciples out the day before on Nisan 13th?

See my problem. Can you help me resolve this?

Thanks. And thanks for admitting that you hadn't really seen this problem before. It means that we might both learn something.

Cheers,
Bibleman

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