Posted by Bibleman [Bibleman] on October 24, 1999 at 08:08:15 {f8eW6hUOe2MRXA6xmpscslyACFuF8c}:
In Reply to: **Question to Bibleman posted by Questioner on October 24, 1999 at 00:21:56:
>>Thanks for your angle on this, though not too sure about a second return of Jesus with an afro.
I know. (smiling). But he is said to have hair like "wool" and so does Jehovah. That's where that reference comes from. And the Ethiopian eunuch's reading of Isaiah 53 (which is about the second coming) and saying "what is preventing me from being baptized" similar to Jesus saying , "Stop prevening me from being baptized" is thought to link the Ethiopian eunuch with the Second coming in some sense. This is again implied in Revelation where it is said that the Lord was "killed" in "Sodom and Egypt). Revelation 11:8 says: So how is it that Jesus was imapled in "Sodom and Egypt." Also notice the reference to his "corpse." This all relates to Jesus coming at the Second Coming as an imperfect man, as the Prodigal son, and part of his failure having to deal with being black and gay. These things "kill him" and conquer him. Thus he becomes a "corpse." The prodigal son in the dead state. Thus the statement, "where the corpse is, so the eagles will be gathered" again shows that the eagle-eyed anointed ones who are aware of the nature of the Second Coming would be surrounding a "corpse" or a spiritually dead person during this time away from God's house. But in the end, he returns in the nick of time, repentant, and upon his father seeing him, is made the Messiah, given a banquet, the finest robe (indicating kingship) and a ring is placed on his finger (also relating to heirship and kingship). Also Christ in Revelation is said to have feet of "copper". So this might be another suble indication that he would be copper-colored with wooly hair, subtle indications the Messiah's Second coming would be as a black man, or basically, someone fitting the description of an "Ethiopian eunuch." So that's where that comes from. But that's advanced knowledge, so, if you have no reference for that, no worry. Don't worry about it. >>I thought iron and copper referred to actual states and not cultures.>> I think it has a "general" meaning. If it is the color of an individual's feet, as in the case of Jesus it might indicate he is copper-colored. That is, the color of copper being the reference. >>Back to the bandings. Where the bands put in place to preserve the tree or to prevent it from growing You could say that. But the bands are also associated with the tree. The tree represented divine kingship on the earth and these bands could represent their association with the kingship since the kingship is being reserved for them, Christ coming in iron at the first coming and in copper at the second. So the bands could be considered as PRESERVING the kingship, or "controlling" the kingship. The kingship belonged to them and thus the symbolism is that the kingship is being reserved for them, but they were, by banding the tree, waiting for that kingship to be bestowed upon them at the proper time. So you could think of it as those bands "controlling" and preserving the kingship that would eventually belong to them. >>But if the bands were meant as a restraint on the tree, then could they refer to 1- iron meaning Rome and Well,... I wouldn't say so. For one thing, the iron is mentioned first. That suggests if this represented Christ in the first coming he would be of fair extraction, and second copper meaning the second coming would be of dark extraction. So order would contradict that idea. Furtheremore, the march of the world powers beginning with Babylon as the head of gold defines the "gentile times" of 2520 years from Babylon through the current world powers. So there should have been a band of gold, silver, copper and iron, etc. if this was specific kingdoms. So that also would contradict that idea for me. >>Although the Judean kingdom was destroyed, yet we read that Jehovah God continued to have a presence As noted, the WTS considers the tree to represent God's representative kingdom, and all the symbolism here is the tree stump and the iron and copper bands. The scripture may have used the iron and copper bands to contrast the natures of the first and second coming by the Messiah for whom the kingship was being restrained for. So there is no reference in the "greater fulfillment" to any nations. However, Jehovah did involve himself again with other kings since Cyrus is called "God's anointed one" as is Nebuchadnezzar called "My servant." Interestingly, a well, Michael is said to have assisted another angel with some wars during the time of Darius, the Mede. So maybe there was more direct interaction with these powers before the Messiah arrived. Thanks for bringing up this question. It would seem now that the banding of iron and copper does have some specific meaning in relation to the Messianic king. Please note that orthodox Jews have often criticized Jesus not fulfilling all the prophecies Key point here is that Jesus, the perfect man, could not fulfill Isaiah 53 without being "sickly" and imperfect. So this like Zechariah 3 which refers to the "befouled garments" of the high priest Joshua also symbolically representing the Messiah, are images and prophecies not of the first coming but the second. That's why it is critically significant that the Ethiopian Eunuch, of all verses, is reading Isaiah 53 which is a Second Coming Messianic prophecy. Thus his subsequent baptism similar to Jesus links him in some way as symbolizing some aspect of the Second Coming, specifically. That was read by the JIOR (or the eagle-eyed organization) as suggesting the physical appearance of the Prodigal Son Messiah would be that of an "Ethiopian eunuch"; whatever you want to make out of that. And that ties into his death in "Sodom and Egypt" relating to the "gay" and "black" subcultures which are linked with eunuchism and "black" or darked-skinned peoples (i.e. the Egyptians are "black" or a Hamitic people). So thanks again, I have another reference for the Second Coming in "copper" in contrast to the first coming in "iron." Also note in the symbolism of the Messiah, who is called the "only-begotten god in the bossom position" by John is typified by Lazarus in the eventual bossom position of Abraham in the parable of the "Rich Man and Lazarus." He is shown at first as being outside the house (i.e. disfellowshipped from God's house), and with many sores (spiritual sickness and sins), but still longing for truth. However, his sores were licked by "dogs." So what does that mean. It can't be taken as an idle reference. To those understanding this is a reference to Jesus in his Prodigal Son state, they understand that a "dog" in scripture is sometimes associated with homsexuality, thus another inference that the Messiah would be associated with or be found during this stage of his life in the homosexual or gay subculture. That is, he would find comfort in that subculture as a gay person who are persecuted physically and psychologically in the "straight world." Cheers,
But it could be a general reference to the metal itself. Thus I don't think that in the great image where the head was of gold (Babylon), the arms and breasts of silver (Medo-Persia) and the belly and thighs of copper, etc. I don't think in this case the metals have to do with racial colors, but something else. So it depends upon the CONTEXT.
again, more like acting as a restraint?
Anglo-America by extension. 2- Copper meaning Greece.
and a direct influence on Babylonian kings, through the presence of Daniel in their courts, and also during
the Persian dynasty, for Jehovah directly influenced some of their kings and their actions. However, no
record of Jehovah's direct influence on any Greek, Roman, British or American heads of state. Kind of
being restrained.
since he didn't fulfill Isaiah 53 where a "suffering Messiah" and imperfect (deformed and sickly) Messiah is spoken of. But this has to do specifically with the second coming when the Messiah must come as a wave offering with "LEAVEN" that is with sin and fulfill the Second Coming as the Prodigal Son. So the Jews do have a point that Jesus did not fulfill this image of the Messiah at his first coming. But they lose their argument that this isn't fulfilled by the Messiah since this is consistent with his Second Coming as the imperfect, Prodigal Son. So it is Messianic and it is fulfilled.
Bibleman