Subj: Grey in the Hawk1
Date: 96-07-26 22:44:41 EDT
From: NiteScreed
What does it mean for a product or adventure or even an
entirely new creation to be suitably "Greyhawk?"
Criteria No. 1 Applied Internal Historic Consistency
Greyhawk has a strong internal sense of history that is
consistently applied in all "Greyhawk" products or
creations. However, not every product published under the
name "Greyhawk" meets this criteria.
Greyhawk is a storied realm. It's seminal figures,
good and ill, are interwoven throughout the setting. It has
a defined history that strongly influences the present and
future of the setting. Greyhawk's history is not a footnote
but an integral part of the setting that must be understood
to truly comprehend the relationships among men, nations and
even gods. True "Greyhawk" products or creations build on
this history, incorporate it and develop it. The best such
products or creations leave enough open ends to allow for
further such development. More mediocre attempt closure of
every loose thread.
Criteria No. 2 Player Resolution of Critical Events
The seminal events in Greyhawk's current history and
development are all presented such that the players may not
only take part but play a leading role.
Players could fight the Greyhawk Wars. Players
defeated the hordes of the Temple of Elemental Evil.
Players defeated Lolth. Players turned the tide as Iuz aced Vecna.
In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Ao decrees an
event and the players get to clean up in the aftermath.
Cyric destroys Zhentil Keep offstage and the players get to
delve into the ruins. Gods die to be replaced by mortals and
the players watch. Elminster sends players on a mission but
ultimately keeps from them the greater goal the mission
serves.
When you play in Greyhawk, you join in the weaving of a
tapestry of which you are a vital part. Greyhawk is about
your story in the context of Greyhawk's story. Roleplaying
in Greyhawk involves playing your part in the longest
running AD&D campaign in existence. It is bigger than you
are but you can become as great as it is. That is the
essence of Greyhawk's history. It enfolds, informs and
connects every part of the setting and all who play there of
any length of time.
Criteria No. 3 NPCs Reward More Often Than They Advise or
Direct
NPC's in Greyhawk are not godlike figures who direct
the course of events upon which your character is washed
like the tide. Neither do they persistently show up to
advise you. They may do both but more often they serve as
the measuring stick against which your character's
performance can be judged and serve to reward your character
by recognizing their accomplishments or otherwise admitting
your character into their august company.
The Circle of Eight are aloof. They do not want to be
your buddy. Neither do they have a laundry list of chores
for you to perform. Rather, in Greyhawk you will find
adventure without such NPCs suggesting it.
In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Elminster is
famous for sending characters on their way. The Harpers do
the same. Ultimately, Elminster or the Harpers play the
directing role and may indeed appear to steal the show or
otherwise claim ultimate victory.
In Greyhawk, YOU are the hero. Without assistance from
the likes of the Circle of Eight and without them acting as
a safety net. You can go your own way, in fact, without
them ever troubling you. This cannot be so simply said in
settings such as the Forgotten Realms and has not a little
to do with Criteria No. 2 (Player Resolution of Critical
Events in Greyhawk vs. NPC Resolution of Critical Events in
FR).
Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil
Evil in Greyhawk is persistent. It is halted, checked
or imprisoned but it is not defeated with finality for all
time. The triumph over evil is a relative thing, ultimately
transitory.
Evil in Greyhawk is personified. Evil has faces and
names attached to it that ring down through the setting's
history. It is not an evil that pops up purely to give the
players something to strive against and defeat before moving
on to the next evil that similarly appears out of relative
nowhere.
Vecna, Iuz, Lolth, Tharzidun, the Scarlet Brotherhood,
Aerdi, Kas, even Turrosh Mak, all met this criteria. They
are highly personified forces that spring from the settings
specific history. By comparison, evil in the Forgotten
Realms is of the pop-up variety save for the Red Wizards and
Zhentrim. Menaces appear from nowhere or with on the spot
histories that never before appeared in the setting.
Greyhawk allows for this type of toaster villainy but it
also established from the first villains of a historic
character that transcend the needs of the adventure of the
moment.
Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety
Villainy in Greyhawk runs the gambit from the cosmic
menace of Tharzidun, to the planar peril of Lolth, to the
cambion menace of Iuz, to the purely moral menace of Turrosh
Mak. Their is variety in the villainy. Villainy in
Greyhawk is like a box of chocolates from Hell; you never
know for sure what you are going to get (Best Example: The
Giant Series). Greyhawk's villains do not announce
themselves; you have to figure it out.
Compare villainy in the Forgotten Realms. The variety
isn't there. You have scads of godly villains. The Red
Wizards. The Zhents. It is feast or famine. And FR
villains have signature trademarks that all but announce who
you are facing, unless of course it is an evil toaster
pastry.
Villains in Greyhawk will also turn on each other. The
Iuz/Vecna conflict being perhaps the most famous. In other
settings, villains are villains, identified by their clearly
visible placards, sandwich signs or more "subtly" their
black attire. You can count on them to always do the wrong
thing.
Greyhawk keeps you guessing. Like a good Call of
Cthulthu adventure.
Criteria No. 6 Heroism With a Price
Greyhawk's heros rarely slay the evil wizard, who will
trouble the land no more, to the full voiced cheers of the
crowd. Best Iuz and you are marked. He will be back but
you will have to deal with a likely enraged Zuggotomy in the
meanwhile. Greyhawk's villains don't exist in a vacuum and
neither do Greyhwk's heroes. Everything is linked.
Heroism has a meaning within the setting that makes it
more than a solitary act echoing in the vastness. It
attracts attention, good and ill. It is immediate and
brings a notoriety that other settings can only talk about.
Notables exist to recognize your accomplishments and to
measure you against themselves and the foe you defeated.
And, they will have likely played little or no role in your
victory. Evil too takes your measure for darker reasons.
This criterion can best be seen in the breach. The
interconnection of people and places and the loose ends
creates this effect, though few published adventures use it
to motivate future adventures. The revised supermodule
series provides the greatest opportunity on this score.
Criteria No. 7 Militant Neutrality
On Oerth, the forces of neutrality are arguably at
least as powerful as those of good and evil and certainly as
active.
Iquander alone has accurately defined this
characteristic of Greyhawk and I acknowledge his work.
Greyhawk is not concerned with the triumph of good over
evil. The very nature of the evils loose on Oerth makes
such triumphs fleeting at best. Greyhawk endures evil and
circumvents it. It does not defeat it.
Evil forces, of course, will attempt to conquer Oerth.
And just as certainly they will be opposed by forces who
will seek to banish evil from the world. Neither will
succeed. Neither in the long history of Oerth has ever
succeeded. Good and evil are well enough matched that
outcomes are never certain and always close calls one way or
the other.
Moreover, evil on Oerth is not monolithic. Various
demon lords and ladies contend with each other. Iuz battles
Vecna. Kas seeks Vecna's destruction. Iuz feuds with his
mother and father. Evil beings are true to no one save
themselves.
Perhaps accounting for all of this, Oerth has strong
and active neutrally aligned forces, working to preserve a
balance between good and evil. While hardly organized,
these forces nonetheless manage to be quite effective. The
Circle of Eight, mighty wizards all, seeks a middle path.
Istus, the divine Lady of Fate, tests all but favors none.
Druids are a quiet but ever present presence. Indeed, many
of Greyhawk's deities reflect a distinct neutral bent.
Compare Toril. Evil is overmatched by Elminster, the
Seven Sisters (good aligned minions of the goddess of
magic), the Harpers, the Lords of Waterdeep and activist
gods. Evil is on the run and kept that way. It has but few
strong holds and is highly transient, rarely surviving long
enough to present more than a temporary challenge. Good
triumphs on Toril. The dragon is slain, never to rise. The
horror you never heard of before yesterday is laid to rest.
The bad gods are thrown down!
The differences could not be more striking. Greyhawk
is about struggle against evenly matched and long standing
opponents. FR is about victory over transient and
overmatched opponents.
Criteria No. 8 Personal Magics
Greyhawk is not a low fantasy setting save by
comparison to settings on magical overload. Birthright is a
low fantasy setting. The Forgotten Realms is a high fantasy
setting. Greyhawk falls in between.
What distinguishes magic in Greyhawk is that it is
highly personalized. Look at the spells. Mordenkain's
this. Nystul's that. Otiluke's the other. Magic is
personalized by any wizard not of the hedge variety. Look
at the artifacts for still more proof. What Birthright
strives to achieve sparingly, Greyhawk has already
accomplished in fair profusion. Spells have a history as
due magic items. While there are +1 swords of no certain
fame, many are the items with specific histories. Look at
the Greyhawk Adventures hardback.
Similarly magical instruction in Greyhawk is personal.
Greyhawk does not know great guilds of wizards but
flourishes with a developed system of apprenticeships. One
need but look at the Circle of Eight to see this. They,
with one, possibly two, exceptions, belong to no guild of
mages, and they that do belong do so as patrons at best and
more probably as figureheads. Neither can the Circle itself
be considered a guild. This mighty example and the utter
lack of a single magical guild of any note, fairly well
makes the case.
I will at a later point post more directly on this
subject as I found the article in the Oerth Journal about
wizardly organizations purest fantasy, out of keeping with
the available information on magic in Greyhawk, though the
article was still interesting for all that.
These then are the eight traits that define the Greyhawk
feel. Most critical are 1st (Applied Internal Historic
Consistency), 4th (Persistent Personified Evil) and 7th
(Militant Neutrality) points. At the barest minimum to be
considered truly "Greyhawk" a product or creation must
adhere to these three criteria. Better products or
creations adhere to progressively more of these criteria.
Without doing a full dress analysis of From the Ashes, I
think we can see that it utterly fails to adhere to the 7th
criterion. FtA throws neutrality out the window in favor of
paring off goods and evils in a Flaneass tilted wildly
toward evil. Furondy/Nyrond is pared off with Iuz. Aerdi
is pared off with Nyrond. Keoland is paired off with the
Scarlet Brotherhood/Pomarj. While overall, evil is clearly
ascendent. This sort of dark fantasy, whatever its merits
otherwise, defies the tradition of active neutrality that
defined Greyhawk beforehand. That about half all WoG
players rejected FtA supports this hypothesis. FtA's
designers, to include the Greyhawk Wars, were ignorant,
willfully or otherwise, of the setting in which they worked.
The resulting products while technically proficient, even
well done on their own merits, were sadly lacking in that
Greyhawk feel. Of course, some would choose to ignore this,
finding the change "bracing," others with duller senses
wouldn't even notice.
In any event, now we have a list of what puts the Grey in
the Hawk. This list is by no means exclusive. I may have
overlooked something and I know some listed criteria are of
lesser note than others or mere permutations. However, I
think overall the list can stand up to close scrutiny. Have
at it.
NightScreed
Subj: Re: Grey in the Hawk
Date: 96-07-28 00:53:02 EDT
From: Nellisir
I've yet to get ahold of FtA, so I could be really wrong with this thought.
It's possible that the events in FtA, specifically the rise of Iuz & the
Scarlet Brotherhood, have served to polarize the members of the Balance --
which IS what they are there for. Since Iuz and co. have done so well
tilting Oerth towards evil, the champions of the Balance would seem, for the
time, to be more inclined towards goodness.
Just a thought.
Nell.
Re:Grey in the Hawk
Date: 96-07-28 01:44:23 EDT
From: JohnH10337
Nite,
A good batch of posts there, which rather succinctly (and tartly) illustrates
What Greyhawk Means To Most Of Us Here.
Your post about Notoriety reminded me of Carl Sargent's adventure "City of
Skulls," and how the PC's could accrue Notoriety Points based on their
actions and obviousness within Doraaka whilst on their rescue mission. I
thought it was a great idea, and one which hinted at further consequences
down the line for the characters. Imagine doing that to some of the
"supermodules" (A1-4, GDQ1-7, T1-4, etc)...
JohnH
Subj: Re:Grey in the Hawk
Date: 96-07-28 03:29:31 EDT
From: Iquander
Let it be said that there is no one on AOL who can get to the point like
Nitescreed. While I have often found myself at the receiving end of that
point, I must say that his "Putting the Grey in Hawk" posts are perhaps the
most definitive posts I've seen on the subject (as, I believe, were his
"maturity" posts ages ago).
A while back, Roger Moore, while still filtering his posts through Rob Repp,
wrote up a short list about the commonalties of the various Greyhawk
adventures. His list was functional, but as it was limited in scope (dealing
with only the modules he could remember at the time--and let me say that
Roger has become quite a guru on Greyhawk since then) and ultimately failed
to really capture the full essence of a Greyhawk campaign.
Nitescreed, my friend, you've done it.
It's funny, because I know Sam's been clamoring for this type of discussion
for the last few folders, and it's been on my mind, as well. I think part of
what was so frustrating about the topic is that most of us _know_ what makes
a Greyhawk campaign special to us, but because we are so close to it, we have
difficulty putting it to paper, so to speak.
I agree with everything but two paragraphs in Screed's posts (more on that
later). More specifically, I'm glad that someone else has picked out the
overwhelming emphasis of neutrality on Oerik, and on the planet itself. I'll
get to FtA in a minute, but I will say now that I think leaving the
Quasi-Deities out of that product was a mistake for precisely this reason.
_They_, more than anyone else, act as the sort of "keepers of the neutral
flame," and while I think a notion of "The Balance" as an actual Oerth-wide
organization (a la New Infinities) is a bit simplistic, the Quasi Deities
are, or should be, very real forces in a Greyhawk campaign.
And now to my only point of contention: Magic Guilds. We could argue that
Gygax had a different view of the Guild of Wizardry and the Society of Magi
than was presented in "City of Greyhawk" (and, having read all of his related
fiction, I think it's probably fair to say that he did), but I don't think
that guilds or organizations take away anything from a Greyhawk campaign.
Surely, entire learning institutions based upon schools of magic is a tad
extreme, but I do not think it so odd that a number of mages would come
together to share secrets and socialize. Remember that this is still a very
regional thing (especially with the article in the Oerth Journal which was
one of my favorites to date), and is nothing like the continent-wide "Order
of High Sorcery" of Krynn.
I think your point that there are members of the Circle of Eight unassociated
with a guild is well made, and should serve as a model for the development of
guilds across the Flanaess, should a DM choose to invent such things.
Finally, based upon your criteria, I am forced to agree that, in many ways,
From the Ashes is a failure. Whoever posted that a dualistic approach was
necessary from the minute they decided to turn the whole thing into a board
game is entirely correct, and I think this was an unfortunate development.
Carl wasn't left with much and, in hindsight, he probably could have done
much better at reconciling the Wars material with the way Greyhawk used to
be. Still, his source material shines as some of the better RPG products I
have read and, though I have never run a post-Wars campaign, I have found
more use from those books than I have of most others.
I think, Nitescreed, that your criteria should be used as a measuring stick
for all future Greyhawk creations.
Bravo.
Iquander
Re: Grey in the Hawk -- agai
Date: 96-07-28 16:44:36 EDT
From: NiteScreed
It is written by Nellsir:
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