John Safran Versus George Negus

12 March, 2003

John Safran joins George in the studio to discuss the importance of rituals in the Jewish faith, his favourite rituals, how he maintains those rituals as well as what it was like growing up in a Jewish family.

GEORGE NEGUS: In the studio to continue tonight's look at the rituals and how, for one reason or another, they're so important to so many people, a guy who's grown up in this Australian culture of ours surrounded by rituals from a very different culture - the whole business of being Jewish. If you don't know John Safran, where have you been? We first met John on the original ABC 'Race Around the World' series, and he's been making his very original TV mark ever since. John. Good to see you.John Safran joins George in the studio to discuss the importance of rituals in the Jewish faith, his favourite rituals, how he maintains those rituals as well as what it was like growing up in a Jewish family.

JOHN SAFRAN: Hi, George.

GEORGE NEGUS: Were you a schoolie? Would you do that thing?

JOHN SAFRAN: Oh, no, I went to a very ultra-orthodox Jewish school and we never had fun. And I always suspected my whole school life that everyone was living this kind of Coca-Cola beach commercial dream and I was stuck at that school. Stories like that don't help me.

GEORGE NEGUS: No, it wouldn't. Depress you, probably. Look what you missed out on.

JOHN SAFRAN: I know. For example, muck-up day - you know, Year 12s, where they go crazy and they slash seats and push teachers over? Our version of muck-up day - I was in Year 8, and the Year 12 kids, during prayer time in the afternoon, suddenly, unexpectedly, at the end of prayer time, all the Year 12 kids stood up in the woman's section above in the synagogue and started throwing lollies at us. And the rabbi, the head of the synagogue, went, "OK, that's enough, boys." And they all stopped. And that was the anarchy, crazy stuff at Yeshiva College.

GEORGE NEGUS: What fascinated me, looking at the...the biog, the Safran biog, was that whilst you...we regard you as Jewish...

JOHN SAFRAN: Yeah.

GEORGE NEGUS: ..your parents were not religious as such, but you grew up with the rituals nevertheless.

JOHN SAFRAN: Yeah. I guess with a lot of Jews it's like that. It's very high-on with the rituals but very low-on in the kind of connecting those and going, "Well, if you do the rituals, shouldn't you believe in God?" So I reckon a high percentage of, like, Australian Jews, at least, are just pretty much borderline atheists. But also...

GEORGE NEGUS: Going through the motions. Well, they're not alone, are they, where religion's concerned? A lot of Christians you'd put in the same category, and Muslims.

JOHN SAFRAN: Yeah, it'd be like Christmas. Most atheist Australians could get their head around, "Oh, we do Christmas, but it's got no real connection to us, with Jesus or whatever." And for Jews it's like that, but pretty much all through the year. Every Friday night, going home for...

GEORGE NEGUS: You go home Friday night?

JOHN SAFRAN: Yeah. Pretty much.

GEORGE NEGUS: Get ready for Shebat.

JOHN SAFRAN: Yeah.

GEORGE NEGUS: For the Sabbath on Saturday.

JOHN SAFRAN: Yeah.

GEORGE NEGUS: And what about kosher food and that sort of thing?

JOHN SAFRAN: Well, you know, I was a bit lax. We had no pig growing up. And, er, my sister, for some reason, started not mixing milk and meat, which is another thing. But she gave up that pretty quickly.

GEORGE NEGUS: This is fascinating, isn't it? Because even though you are not, to all intents and purposes, religious, the rituals, as a cultural thing, in your family were still incredibly important, and sounds like they still are.

JOHN SAFRAN: Oh, yeah, definitely. I notice a lot of orthodox religious Jews kind of find this problematic or are at least ambivalent about it because on the one hand they're, you know, happy that other Jews are celebrating the rituals, but then they're kind of like, "Well, if you're doing the rituals, but you're not believing in the God side of it, what does it all add up to?"

GEORGE NEGUS: I guess what it does add up to is rituals are important to people even if you don't believe the basis for rituals.

JOHN SAFRAN: When I started working Fridays and everyone went to the pub, and I'd go, "I can't go, I've got to go home," I got a bit of ribbing. But then people were like, "I wish I could go home every Friday night." I find a lot of my non-Jewish friends who I bring over on Friday night are, like, "God, I wish my family did that just to get together."

GEORGE NEGUS: In your wandering round the globe, racing around the world, what's the strangest thing that you came across in terms of ritual?

JOHN SAFRAN: One thing - I didn't actually go to West Papua but I met this guy from West Papua who, even though he was a black Melanesian, he, um...his mother was Jewish or half-Jewish. And he actually grew up in West Papua keeping the rules of...the kosher rules. And he actually kept them better than me. 'Cause I just didn't eat pig. And he also grew up and didn't eat pig, which...

GEORGE NEGUS: Which is strange for Melanesians.

JOHN SAFRAN: Yeah, because one of their most important symbols is the pig. And, um, but on top of that, he started talking about these more nuanced kind of elements of the kosher laws where, like, with the fish scales and stuff, and him only being allowed to eat the kosher fish. And I'm going, "Man, you're already more Jewish than me."

GEORGE NEGUS: That's very strange. A West Papuan Jew.

JOHN SAFRAN: Yes.

GEORGE NEGUS: I'll get my mind around that in a few days. John, thanks.

JOHN SAFRAN: Thank you very much.

GEORGE NEGUS: Love your work. Seriously.

Oh, we love you too, George.