Calvinism Defended:
Those Murderous Reformers
By
This is the 20th section of the e-mail exchange I had with Bill, an individual who objected to Calvinism. Click here to go back to the table of contents, or here to go to the full 88 page exchange.
In this exchange, notice that once again Bill doesn't do what I asked, but again turns to the tactic of trying to smear the character of his theological opponents (i.e., Augustine and the Reformers).
My First E-mail: 3. As for your assertion that Augustine and Calvin’s view has a major logical flaw:
A. Where precisely is the major logical flaw? In order to determine this, you must interact with what they taught regarding these things, demonstrate where the exegesis of the Biblical text from where their position is drawn is incorrect, and then provided a Biblical exposition that both demonstrates your view, and also disproves theirs.
Bill's Response: Augustine and Calvin taught and practiced persecution of their opponents as a divine right. Didn’t you know that? Now are you trying to tell me that you believe that it is your God given mission is to persecute, imprison, torture, and execute your theological opponents? Your theological forefathers did.
-- First, you merely dodged my comments above by
resorting to what seems to be a common thing:
when encouraged to interact with what is taught regarding these things
and demonstrate where their exegesis of the Biblical text in incorrect, and then
provide your response based purely on an exposition of the texts that proves
your point and disproves theirs, you resort to what amounts to mere rock throwing.
It’s like you’re saying, “yeah, whatever…hey, did you know that
those guys had serious moral flaws…” as if that answered their exegesis.
Secondly, my “theological forefather’s” are found in Scripture. It just so happens that Calvin and the others clearly and
masterfully articulated what the Scriptures so clearly teach with
regard to the issue of God’s attributes, the deadness of man in sin, the
necessity and effectiveness of grace, and the absolute sufficiency of Christ’s
work on the cross.
Third, am I going to follow what they did in terms of how they reacted to
their theological opponents? No. Again, I have the benefit of living in a
completely different cultural and historical context than they did.
Fourth,
I do not agree with every jot and title of what any great theologian, past or
present, has stated, and I certainly do not condone anyone’s wrong doing.
But, I am able to separate the moral failings of people from what their
understanding of Scripture is.
Fifth,
as for their moral failings, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
My First E-mail: B. The only evidence you give that they have a major logical flaw is because “many godly people have rejected this teaching.” This is spurious argumentation for a number of reasons:
Bill's Response: Many godly Christians have rejected persecution as a means of conversion. I hope you will join them in a declaration condemning persecution, imprisonment, torture, and execution, and condemn and repudiate those vicious criminals.
-- uh huh. And this addresses the issue of the passages I cited precisely how???
My First E-mail: 1) The determining factor of whether something is true or not is not whether or not “many godly” people accept it as true. The sole infallible rule for faith and practice is the Word of God, not the beliefs of fallible men and women. 2) This is a sword you may want to think twice about wielding, for it cuts far more sharply against those who oppose Augustine and Calvin’s view, for many godly people have embraced these teachings. It was these teachings that launched the Reformation, and made it possible for you and I to do what most take for granted today: read the Bible in our own language. Were it not for people that held to the view of God’ absolutely sovereignty and grace espoused by Augustine, Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Tyndale, etc., suffice to say, we would still be attempting to read the Bible in Latin (and in point of fact, we would not be permitted to even do that much, because the Roman Church forbade the “common man” from reading Scripture).
Bill's Response: Once the persecuted Reformed Protestants gained political power they persecuted their opponents. Luther sanctioned the persecution and murder of peasants, Jews, and Anabaptists. Zwingli persecuted his opponents and Luther condemned Zwingli to hell for his theology. The loving brotherhood of Protestant Reformers is only a myth. The persecuted English Puritan, once they came to America to escape persecution, they then persecuted their opponents. I would never join my hand to the bloody hand of persecutors because they have shed innocent blood. The unrepentant murderer’s place is the lake of fire.
My Response:
And just what Christian community from those times
is there that is completely innocent of persecuting their theological enemies?
But, that really isn’t even the point Bill.
The point is you are not joining hands with those people; you would
simply be bowing to what Scripture teaches with regard to the issues I thought that we
were suppose to discuss. As the
saying goes, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Were the Reformers perfect?
No, and it is sad to see some of the things that transpired.
But again, you must stop wrenching what happened out of its historical
context. One of the things we can
learn from what happened is that there will be trouble when there is an
established theocracy, or one sect tries to impose its beliefs upon the masses.
Also, in terms of perspective, you do realize that one can only be
convicted of murder if they engage in the unlawful taking of ones life. (?). Again, this gets back to your complete lack of historical
perspective.
My First E-mail: 3) In line with the previous point, if I were to list the people from church history who held to the Augustinian view, suffice to say it would be littered with the names of those who have come to be known as the giants of the Christian faith.
Bill's Response: Only in the west and only after Augustine. What happened to the opponents of Augustine? They were arrested, tortured, and executed. And Augustine sanctioned it...And that’s where Calvin got his ideas of arresting, torturing, and executing his enemies. By their fruits you shall know them. The root of Manichean Gnosticism, the trunk of Augustinianism, and the fruit of Calvinism. Augustinianism did not win western Europe by persuasion. Augustinianism won the west by persecution.
My Response: I
believe that your comments leave much to be desired in terms of historical
accuracy and perspective. How about citing the precise reference and page numbers where
you are drawing your information. Also,
as I stated above, I will state again:
in terms of perspective, you do realize that one can only be convicted of
murder if they engage in the unlawful taking of ones life. (?)
Again, this gets back to your complete lack of historical perspective.
Second, just precisely how does this relate to any
other passage I cited in my article and my last response to you?
Answer: it doesn’t.
Question for you Bill: With
reference to just John 6:37, does every single person come to Jesus?
Who is it that comes to Jesus? Why
is it that they come to Jesus? I
would be very interested to hear a response from a synergistic view that is
faithful to the text.
Thirdly,
even if I conceded what your points here (and I don’t), again, so what?
Where does that leave the volume Scriptural texts that still have to be
dealt with? It leaves them, in your
case, untouched. Again, there is only one person who has kept focusing on
Augustine and Calvin, and that is you.
My First E-mail: The names on the side that opposed this view, however, would be filled with the names of those who, let’s just say in the interest of Christian charity, were not quite as theologically astute as the others. As a matter of fact, the list would be contain a number of heretics: Pelagius, Socinus, Finney, and the entire modern-day movement of Word of Faith teachers, not to mention that it has historically been the catalyst that launched theological liberalism in all of its forms.
Bill's Response: How about all of the Christian martyrs and theologian prior to Augustine. You need to do a study of the early history of Christianity.
My
Response: What about
them? They taught many good things.
They also taught some things that were problematic.
I’m not like you though Bill, where I feel the need to demonize those
who do not subscribe to my theology.