Refutation of David Cloud's "Peter VS. The Popes"
David's words will be in blue, and mine will be in black.
1. There is no evidence that Peter was in Rome (Romans 16), and there is no evidence in the New Testament that there was anything special about the congregation at Rome, but the popes rule in Rome and claim that it is the "mother church." Peter's first epistle was written from Babylon, not from Rome, and the popes' claim that "Babylon" stands for Rome is mere conjecture. The biblical evidence that Peter was not a leader in the church at Rome is overwhelming. Paul wrote TO the church at Rome in A.D. 58, but though he mentions 27 people by name, he does not mention Peter. That would have been an inexcusable affront if Peter had been the pope at Rome. Later, Paul writes FROM Rome to the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Colossians, and to Philemon, but not once does he mention that Peter is in Rome. In 2 Timothy 4:16 Paul said that no man stood with him and all forsook him when he answered his charges. Where was Pope Peter? The fact is that Peter was not a pope and he was not in Rome.
Actually, in Romans 15:20, Paul says, "Thus I make it my ambition to proclaim the good news, not where Christ has already been named, so that I do not build on someone else's foundation." This "someone else" was probably Peter, even though he is not mentioned by name. Why did Paul not mention Peter by name? First of all, peter may not have been in Rome at the time; he might've been traveling elsewhere but using Rome as a home base. Also, even if he was there, it would have been very dangerous for Paul to say that the head of the whole Church was in the capital of the Roman empire. It would've been almost a death sentence if the Romans found out.
Peter did say that he wrote his first epistle from Babylon, but scholars have long seen this as a code word for Rome. There is good evidence for believing this. First of all, to mention that he was in Rome would have been very dangerous for Peter. Secondly, Rome was persecuting and ruling the Jews just as Babylon had done centuries before. Thirdly, the book of Revelation uses Babylon as a code word for Rome. Interpreting Babylon to mean Rome is at best definite and at worst probable, in my opinion.
There is TONS of historical evidence supporting the fact that peter was in Rome. Here are a few quotes from the Church fathers.
Ignatius of Antioch
"Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict" (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110]).
Dionysius of Corinth
"You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time" (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).
Irenaeus
"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3, 3, 2).
In 2 Timothy 4:16 Paul was probably (actually almost certainly) referring to the people he was with, which probably didn't include Peter.
2. Peter was married (Matthew 8:14), but the popes cannot marry.
Priestly celibacy is discipline, not doctrine, so it's not infallible.
3. Peter said Holy Scripture is the sure Word of God and to this alone we are to give heed (2 Peter 1:19-21), but the popes say we are also to heed their uninspired traditions.
Where in the text does Peter say we are to listen ONLY to Scripture? Let's take a look:
"So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own private interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
Where does he say to listen only to Scripture? I don't see it. Plus, this is contradicting Paul's command to heed both written AND oral Traditions in 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
4. Peter warned of false teachers who would make merchandise of God's people (2 Peter 2:1-3), but the popes have not feared to sell their masses and their prayers and their indulgences.
Ok, so you found a paralell between the Catholic Church and false teachers - they both sell things. Do you really think this disproves the Church? Come on. Plus, to make merchandise of people sounds more like selling them than selling things to them, and the Catholic Church doesn't sell anybody.
5. Peter said baptism is a figure, a symbol, and that it is not water which saves us, but the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21), but the popes say that baptism itself brings salvation and that it is not merely symbolic.
Again, let's take a look at what the verse actually says:
"And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you - not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
We can clearly see how David misreads the text. Peter DOES say that baptism saves us, and it saves us through the resurrection of Jesus. In Acts 2:37-38, when some people ask Peter what they must do to be saved, what does he say? "Repent, and be baptized."
6. Peter refused worship (Acts 10:25-26), but the popes have accepted honor and bowings and kissings which border on worship and have allowed themselves to be treated almost as gods.
All the kissing and everything the popes accept is NOT worship, but honor. Plus, even if the popes DID accept worship, it wouldn't disprove the office of pope because, as we will see later on, God CAN work through bad men.
7. Peter taught that salvation is strictly through the righteousness of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1), but the popes claim that their sacraments are also necessary for salvation.
We ARE saved through the righteousness of Jesus; Catholics agree with this. The sacraments are merely channels through which God gives us His grace. The sacraments help to keep us in God's grace (as Paul says in Galatians 5:1, 4, we can fall from grace).
Through baptism, God cleanses us from sin, particularly original sin, and we are born again (John 3:5, Acts 2:37-38, 1 Peter 3:21).
Through reconciliation, God forgives any sins (particularly mortal sins) that we may have committed after baptism (John 20:21-23).
Jesus commanded us to receive the Eucharist to stay in His grace (John 6:52-58).
Confirmation "completes" the grace we receive at baptism (Acts 8:14-17, 19:1-6)
At holy orders, men are ordained priests (Acts 6:6; 1 Timothy 4:14, 5:22)
At matrimony, a man and a woman are joined together with a supernatural grace (Matthew 19:3-6, Hebrews 13:4)
At anointing of the sick, we are given the grace to persevere to the end (James 5:14-15)
8. Peter taught against hierarchicalism, warning the pastors against "being lords over God's heritage" (1 Peter 5:1-4), and Peter mentioned no church office other than that of the elder; but the popes have set up a system of ecclesiastical lordship over the churches, and have added many offices which are never mentioned in the New Testament.
Peter mentioned no Church office other than elder. So, does this mean that none existed? Paul listed 2 (bishop and deacon) in 1 Timothy 3:1, 8; does this mean that either he or Peter was wrong? No. Just because Peter didn't mention every single Church office doesn't mean they don't exist.
Now, Peter referred to himself merely as an elder, but this does not mean that he wasn't the pope. If we take this literally, it would mean that he wasn't an apostle either, which is absurd. So, why did he only call himself an elder? He was being humble, as Jesus was (John 14:28), and as he told his readers to be (1 Peter 3:8, 5:3). Just as the president of the United States addresses the public as "My fellow Americans" and not "Those under my command," Peter referred to himself as a fellow elder and not the head of the Church.
Now, why did Peter tell his readers not to "lord it over those in your charge" (or "being lords over God's heritage")? Let's read the whole verse (1 Peter 5:3):
"Do not lord it over those in your charge, but be examples to the flock."
Peter obviously didn't mean that they shouldn't exercise authority; rather, they should be examples of how to lovingly care for the flock instead of being tyrants.
9. Peter taught that the only priesthood in the New Testament dispensation is the High priesthood of Jesus Christ and the general priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:9), but the popes say that their "church" has a special priesthood which is ordained to distribute sacraments.
Catholics agree that Jesus is the High Priest; our priests get their priesthood from Him. Peter did say that all Christians are a "royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9), but Israel was also called a "priestly kingdom" (Exodus 19:6), yet they still had ordained priests. In the same way, all Christians are a "royal priesthood," but we still have ordained priests (1 Timothy 4:14, 5:22).
10. Peter taught that Jesus Christ is the rock upon which the church is founded (1 Peter 2:4-8), but the popes say that Peter was the rock.
Jesus is the rock upon which the Church is built (1 Peter 2:4-8). In another way, the apostles are the rocks upon which the Church is built (Ephesians 2:20). Peter, however, is the rock the Church is built on in a third way (Matthew 16:18).
11. Peter taught that men are born again through the Word of God (1 Peter 1:23), but the popes say that men are born again through baptism.
Oh, so you say we're not born again by faith but by God's word? Interesting. Jesus clearly said that we are born again in baptism (John 3:5). He was talking to Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin who would've known the Old Testament very well, and Ezekiel 36:23-29, God speaks of cleansing His people BY SPRINKLING WATER ON THEM. Nicodemus would've made the connection and known that Jesus was speaking of baptism.
Plus, the Church Fathers interpreted John 3:5 to mean water baptism; here are a few quotes:
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven' [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
"'And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan' [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, 'Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).
When Peter said that we are born again through the word of God, he meant that we are born again BECAUSE of God's word; God's word prompted us to be born again. You would say that we're born again when we accept Jesus; I say that we're born again in baptism. The similarity is that both come as a result of hearing God's word. The only exception, however, would be infants and small children, but Peter was writing to adults who had freely chosen to be baptized.
12. Peter taught that Christ has "once suffered for sins" (1 Peter 3:18), and "bare our sins in his own body on the tree" (1 Peter 2:24); but the popes say that Christ is sacrificed anew in each mass and that having Jesus Christ and his cross is not enough, that a believer also needs the Roman Catholic Church and its sacraments and priesthood.
The Church does not say that Jesus is sacrificed anew at every mass; here is what the Catechism says:
"The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross�" (Section 1366)
"The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice� (Section 1367)
So, we can see that Jesus is NOT re-sacrificed at every mass; His single sacrifice is re-presented at every mass. That is, God (because He transcends time) goes back in time to bring Jesus' sacrifice into the present. What scriptural support does the mass have?
"On that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "Holy to the Lord." And the cooking pots in the house of the Lord shall be as holy as the bowls in front of the altar; and every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the Lord of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and use them to boil the flesh of the sacrifice. And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the Lord of hosts on that day." - Zechariah 14:20-21
"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." - Malachi 1:11 (Douay-Rheims)
Here we have two prophecies about the New Covenant. Notice that there are STILL sacrifices being performed, even though Protestants believe that there are no sacrifices now that Jesus has been sacrificed. This fits in perfectly with the Catholic mass because there are STILL sacrifices, even though this sacrifice is the same one that was performed 2,000 years ago.
"You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek" - Psalm 110:4
Here we have a prophecy saying that Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek. In ancient times, there were no religious orders like the Catholic Church has today, so "in the order of" means "in the manner of." In Genesis 14:18-20, Melchizedek sacrificed bread and wine; this is the only time that we see him sacrifice anything. Jesus sacrificed bread and wine at the Last Supper, but Protestants say that it was merely symbolic, so their interpretation doesn't fit. The mass, however, fits this perfectly because it is a sacrifice of bread and wine that is to be continued.
Jesus established a physical, visible Church (Matthew 16:18, 1 Timothy 3:15) and wants us to be part of it. Non-Catholics can be saved, but it's much easier if we have the Church, her sacraments, and her priesthood to help us.
13. Peter taught that the believer has a living hope, that he has an inheritance reserved in heaven, and that he is kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:2-5); but the popes say that a believer cannot know for sure that he has a home in heaven.
The Church agrees that God has a place for us in heaven; the whole world has a place in heaven (John 3:17, 1 Timothy 2:3-4). However, we must accept our place in heaven and stay in God's grace, or else we will lose it (Romans 11:22; Colossians 1:22-23; Hebrews 3:14, 10:26-31; 2 Peter 3:20-21). Peter did say that God protects us through faith, but we must stay in the faith, or else, as the verses I gave show, God will not protect us.
14. Peter taught that the believer is not to be a murderer, or a thief, or an evildoer, or a busybody in other men's matters (1 Peter 4:15); but the popes have been all of these things.
Ok, some popes have been sinners, but this doesn't take away from their authority. In Matthew 23:2-3, Jesus tells the people to obey the scribes and Pharisees even though they are sinners, and in John 11:49-51, Caiaphas, a huge sinner, prophecies BECAUSE HE WAS THE HIGH PRIEST. So we see that the power of the office is independent of the holiness of the officeholder.
