Final moments of Gwok Jing & Wong Yung's lives
How do you imagine the final moments of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung's lives were? From HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE, we know they both perished courageously defending Seung Yeung Fortress with the last breath, but Jin Yong gave us no details. How do you imagine those final moments were? Considering that the Mongols (especially Kublai Khan) always deeply respected Gwok Jing despite the fact that he was their enemy, do you imagine he and Wong Yung were buried with honors? I can't imagine Kublai ordering their corpses thrown to the wolves.
Posted by: Ken Cheng
Date: Wednesday, 30 May 2001, at 3:24 p.m.
Hmmm never wanted to actually think of the deaths of Wong Yung and Gwok Jing. Still I always imagined in the back of my mind that GJ and family commited suicide first in order to not allow the Mongols the satisfaction of torturing let alone killing them.
I can imagine an extremely old KJ setting their home on fire while he and his family were still in it, not allowing the chance for the Mongols to disturb their corpses.
Somber thoughts indeed!
Posted by: Jeff
Date: Wednesday, 30 May 2001, at 4:00 p.m.
If I know Gwok Jing like I think I do, I don't think he'll commite suicide. Infact, I think committing suicide wouldn't even be in his mind. Gwok Jing is a saviour and he'll do anything to save and to protect the city of Seung Yeung, even if he used up his last breath.
I would always think that when Gwok Jing died he would yell out something before he dies like: " I would come back if you don't treat the people of han with respect".
It'll be funny having a ghost of Gwok Jing floating around in the palace of Mongols and just scare the heck out of the emperors of mongolia.
Posted by: �i�J
Date: Wednesday, 30 May 2001, at 4:28 p.m.
I envision Gwok Jing going down fighting, taking hundreds upon hundreds of Mongol troops with him. His finals words might have echoed Ngok Fei's, "Wan ngor gong san!" ("Return my lakes and mountains!").
Posted by: Ken Cheng
Date: Wednesday, 30 May 2001, at 4:32 p.m.
Nice envision of GJ's last days guys, but what happened to Wong Yung and their children (excluding Gwok Seung). Plus what happend to their bodies?
Posted by: Jeff
Date: Wednesday, 30 May 2001, at 5:53 p.m.
GJ without a doubt was killed fighting millions upon millions of Mongol warriors, I think in HSDS it said that HR and GJ died at the same time. So I think they were doing a back-to-back thing and well, the warriors overwhelmed them at the same time and they died in each other's arms (haven't worked it out physically yet since they were fighting back to back against millions of warriors but hey! It's GJ and HR, they should die together and in each other's arms).
Guo Pulou died separately, but probably fighting as well. It was said that Guo Xiang barely was able to escape, so she might have been left for dead and then the citizens of the city rescued her afterwards.
Posted by: Moinllieon
Date: Thursday, 31 May 2001, at 3:50 a.m.
There haven't been many armies, ancient or modern, that number into the *millions* of troops. The Mongol army, although probably the greatest cavalry force known to history, was not particularly large. Gwok Jing and Wong Yung likely had to face down tens of thousands of troops, but probably not millions (especially in a single battle).
Posted by: Ken Cheng
Date: Thursday, 31 May 2001, at 4:13 a.m.
The mongol armies were never particularly large, instead, they triumphed through skill and tenacity. They were perhaps the very embodiment of Sun Tzu's Art of War. In addition, the Mongols were blessed with having the best general staff of all time. In the conquest of China, the Mongols were probably outnumbered all the time. You have to remember that they had armies in Russia, Afghanistan, Turkey, and Persia at the same time (even combined, the armies were well under a million soldiers).
Posted by: David Yan
Date: Thursday, 31 May 2001, at 12:19 p.m.
Hmmm interesting. I can't recall what show it was, but I remember seeing something about the Mongols using better technology for their bows. Their bows were built differently from the chinese and could shoot the arrow further and with greater force.
Posted by: Jeff
Date: Thursday, 31 May 2001, at 1:40 p.m.
The Mongols were the finest horseback cavalry and archery force history has ever known, but initially, this did not give them much of an advantage in war against the Chinese because the Mongols were fighting completely out of their element in China. Of all the Eurasian lands that the Mongols conquered during the 13th Century, Sung China proved to be the most difficult nut to crack. The Central Asian and Eastern European lands that the Mongols came to control were all placed under heel decisively before Genghis Khan's death in A.D. 1227, and the Jin Empire in northern China was finished off by A.D. 1234. Sung China, however, kept the Mongols at bay until A.D. 1279 . . . more than 70 years after Genghis Khan began his campaign of world conquest. In history, of course, there was no Gwok Jing to hold back the Mongol hordes. It was a matter of the Mongol troops being largely ineffective in the forests and marshes of the Chinese Central Plains. The cavalry tactics that had worked so well for the Mongols elsewhere were useless in this environment, and while the Mongols reigned supreme in the open tundra, they had very little idea of how to win at siege warfare (which is what they had to do to overcome Seung Yeung Fortress' defenses and gain access to Yellow River, which would in turn allow their troops to enter Gong Nam). It took decades for the Mongols to acquire these skills via foreigners (including Central Asians, Jins, Khitans, and Chinese).
The Mongol conquest of Sung China is even more impressive when you consider how badly the Mongols were outnumbered. I read somewhere that the Mongol army was outnumbered by the Chinese army by a ratio of 200:18. The Mongols, however, were a far more inspired and well-trained force than the Chinese at the time.
Posted by: Ken Cheng
Date: Thursday, 31 May 2001, at 1:57 p.m.
Actually, there is 2 other very simple and very important reasons why the Mongols were such a smashing success. One, they were the first people to use stirrups. The stirrup allowed the Mongolian calvary to aim and shoot their arrows without stopping in their tracks in order to balance themselves. Hence improving the speed and manuevreability of their army greatly. Second, was sheer reputation of the Mongolian army. The Mongolian army had the reputation of being monsters (think Vikings), eating captured POW's, killing an entire besieged cities, etc. So much so that the opposing armies went into battle scared @#$%less. Now of course there are also other strategies that the Mongols used, for example punishing a city according to how long the seige lasted, the longer it lasted, the worse the punishment. I can just imagine what Xiang Yiang got.
P.S. When I said "millions" that GJ was fighting, it was a figure of speech. Maybe a better way of putting it would be waves upon waves of Mongolian warriors.
Posted by: Moinllieon
Date: Thursday, 31 May 2001, at 2:29 p.m.
Seung Yeung actually got off relatively easy after surrendering. There was no mass slaughter. The reason being that the Mongol Khan at the time of Seung Yeung's last stand was Kublai. Kublai was a gentler, less vicious leader than his grandfather Genghis had been, and was less apt to engage in slaughter for slaughter's own sake. By contrast, when Genghis' armies overran the Jin capital of Yenking (modern Beijing), they razed the city to the ground and slaughtered every man, woman, child, dog, cat, tree, and fish. I've read accounts of these Mongols being so full of violent rage they even smashed stones to dust when there was nothing left to kill.
Posted by: Ken Cheng
Date: Thursday, 31 May 2001, at 2:38 p.m.
That does it. I've got to go shopping for a few books of the history of China. Quite the fascenating topic.
Posted by: Jeff
Date: Friday, 1 June 2001, at 8:50 p.m.
Chinese history is alot more fascinating than any other country's history. Egypt may be older but it seized being a nation at the time of Alexander the Great. England might have been the most spectacular but it's only around for 1000 years. Rome might have had the most legacy but it only lasted 500 years (depends on whatever dates you go by, 500 is a nice round number). US might be the most powerful but it's a baby at the age a little over 200. China, however, has been grand, extravagant, influential, and has been around for 6000 years! Lasting through one female king; tens of dynasties; hundreds of kings; thousands of scholars, geniuses, heroes, and traitors; and millions of tales! You need to get more than just a few books to cover all that. Just a comprehensive history of any of the big dynasties (Zhou, Ching, Han, Jin, Tang, Sung, Ming, Qing) takes a few books.
Posted by: Moinllieon
Date: Saturday, 2 June 2001, at 12:12 a.m.
Yes.Chinese history is the most interesting in the world.However,only people who understand Chinese history well know that it was only during the Qing dynasty that Hans wear braids.When those Americans make films about the Chinese that are set in a dynasty that is not Qing,the Chinese will be shown wearing braids.I can almost burst out laughing.Worst of all,the weapons that the Chinese use in American films[except Disney's Mulan] are not Gim/Kim or broadswords that the Ming and Qing soldiers use but Samurai swords!!In the movie Genghis Khan the Jurchen Jin emperor calls rebels in Hopei "Manchurian rebel invaders"!?Anyway I have a question.Did the Jurchen Jin dynasty,being ancestors of Manchus force the Hans to wear braids?Did the Hans have to wear braids anyway during Jurchen Jin?Liked the way you wrote "Hey!Lay off us Chinese"in defence some time ago.
Posted by: ANY
Date: Monday, 4 June 2001, at 1:59 p.m.
wow, the chinese #####! 200:18?
Posted by: lowantong
Date: Thursday, 31 May 2001, at 2:17 p.m.
Hey! Lay off us Chinese, the rest of the world didn't fare any better! Take Europe for example, they didn't even put up a fight, just ran away! And they were thousands of miles away from Mongolia, which happens to be in China's back yard. At least we put a fight and only let them stay for 100 years! Unlike say... the Russians! (The Manchu dynasty does not count!
)
Posted by: Moinllieon
Date: Saturday, 2 June 2001, at 12:16 a.m.
Well, i thought the mongol army was pretty big (near the end of the yuan dynasty anyway) cause of what i saw on cnn. they showed a special and in it, they had mentioned that a mongol army of 140,000 planning to invade japan had been wiped out by a typhoon and yet they still had another army who was heading west and conquering (failing at the end) territories. and that's not to mentioned the army that was stay put.
Posted by: dgkb
Date: Thursday, 31 May 2001, at 1:58 p.m.