AARON VIA PHONE WITH WOLF BLITZER APPROX. 12:45PM ET
NEWS FROM CNN
Bombings Shake Iraq Ahead of Anniversary;
President Bush Speaks to Troops at Fort Campbell, Kentucky
Aired March 18, 2004 - 12:00 ET
BLITZER: And from Iraq, let's go to Pakistan right now. CNN's Aaron Brown is joining us on the phone. Aaron has just had an interview with the Pakistani president, Perfuse Musharraf.
Aaron, I understand some significant news relayed to you from the Pakistani president. Update our viewers.
AARON BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is the potential of something very significant, but it is only that at this point, the potential. For the last couple of days, Pakistani armed forces and militia have been working that border area between Afghanistan and Pakistan, where it is believed that al Qaeda fighters and perhaps Osama bin Laden are in hiding.
They have, for the last two days, been involved in a very fierce fight. And they now believe, the president now believes that they have surrounded this group of al Qaeda fighters, and that this group of al Qaeda fighters is protecting what President Musharraf describes as a high-value target.
We all understand what or who that could be, that we could be talking about bin Laden, we could be talking about Zarqawi, we could be talking about someone else. Or we could in the end be talking about none of the above. But it is the belief of the president, based on the ferociousness of the fight itself, how hard the al Qaeda fighters are fighting, their refusal to give ground -- they normally melt into the mountainside -- that there is some significant person they are protecting.
BLITZER: Aaron, is there any indication that U.S. Special Operations Forces, U.S. troops are also participating in this battle?
BROWN: Well, officially, the United States government and the Pakistani government will tell you that there are no American Special Forces on the Pakistani side of the border.
BLITZER: All right. I understand that you're saying. That's the official line. Unofficially, there may be some U.S. troops. Is that what you're suggesting?
BROWN: I'm not -- honestly, Wolf, I am not suggesting one thing or another. I can't honestly answer that.
Is it possible? Sure, it's possible. But what I can tell you is that the Pakistani government acknowledges that when this fight began two days ago, they did not see it as significant. And, in fact, they were routed.
They lost a number of troops. A number of troops have been taken prisoner. It was only after that, that they realized they had something bigger on their hands than they first came to realize.
As you know, this is a very complicated area. It is futile. You're talking about something out of the 14th century, not the 21st century. It's an area where the Pakistani government literally has not been allowed in until the last few months by the tribal leaders who own it.
But now they're in there. Now they're fighting. And now they believe at least is there a possibility -- a possibility -- enough of a possibility that the president of the country would state it, that they have a high-value target in their sights.
BLITZER: So, clearly, he's potentially enthusiastic, excited about this. Give us your impressions, Aaron, of President Musharraf right now. U.S. officials warmly praising him for his cooperation. But he's facing a tough domestic battle inside Pakistan itself; he's been the target, at least twice, of assassination attempts in recent months.
BROWN: In fact, we drove by the spots of both those assassination attempts on our way to his residence today. It's hard to imagine, Wolf, there is a leader in the world with a more complicated political position than President Musharraf.
He allied himself with the United States after 9/11. A poll done here recently showed that 65 percent of Pakistanis have a favorable impression of Osama bin Laden. This is an Islamic state.
There is enormous sort of about whether it will become an extremist state, like Afghanistan, across the border, or whether it will follow its president and become a moderate state. And so he walks this delicate line in every action he takes, including the ones we're talking about now. It is not a position that would be much fun for any political leader anywhere in the world.
BLITZER: A key ally in the U.S. war against terrorism, perhaps arguably the key ally in the U.S. war against terrorism. Aaron Brown reporting from Islamabad.
And this note to our viewers: the full interview, Aaron's complete interview with Pervez Musharraf will air tonight on "NEWSNIGHT." That's at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 p.m. Pacific. "NEWSNIGHT" tonight with Aaron Brown from Islamabad, 10:00 p.m. Eastern.
Aaron reporting, quoting President Musharraf, that Pakistani forces have surrounded a "high-value target" in the ongoing fighting in western Pakistan.
We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll speak with the British ambassador to the United Nations.
Stay with us.
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AARON VIA PHONE WITH MILES O'BRIEN APPROX. 1:16PM ET
LIVE FROM...More Suspects Arrested in Madrid Bombings; Bush Thanks Troops at Fort Campbell; Pakistani Forces Surrounding al Qaeda Enclave; Could Police Have Prevented Fresno Murders?Aired March 18, 2004 - 13:00 ET
On the line with us, CNN's Aaron Brown, who just completed an interview with President Musharraf and has more for us -- Aaron.
AARON BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, here's the situation. There has been a fierce, and I mean fierce -- artillery, helicopter, gun ships -- fierce fight going on in this mountainous region between Afghanistan and Pakistan where the president says his forces, after having a very tough couple of days, by the way, have surrounded a group of al Qaeda fighters.
Now, why do they believe they may have a high value target in there? This has more to do with deductive reasoning than intelligence. This is the way President Musharraf described his thinking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: The resistance that is being offered by the people there, we feel that there may be a high value target. I can't say who.
But they are giving fierce battle at the moment. They're not come out in spite of the fact that we've pounded them with artillery. I spoke with the corps commander just now. I knew you were going to ask me this question. So I spoke with the commander.
The net is there. They are there. They see very strong dug-in positions. The houses actually there are almost forts. They have -- they are mud forts. All these forts are occupied. And they are dug in, and they are giving fierce resistance. So he's reasonably sure there's a high value target there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So that is how they think of it. It is not something they know. And so we have to balance and we have to, I think, take literally what the president is saying here. It is not that they are certain they have something, it's that they suspect they might have something.
I asked him immediately after that, I said, when Americans hear the term high-value target, you know exactly, Mr. President, what they're going to think. And he acknowledged we're talking about one, two, three, or four people that would come to mind of the Americans, including bin Laden and Zawahiri.
But there's no -- I don't want any of us to go too far ahead here. We just don't know if any of those people is there -- are there. And we don't know, in fact, in anyone is there.
We do know for the last several days in an area that intelligence believes is -- American intelligence believes -- is rich with both al Qaeda and Taliban forces, an area that has literally existed outside of the control of any government for centuries, is backward in an almost feudal way, and where everyone is armed and no one is thrilled with any government, there is a major fight going on.
I'd add one other thing, Miles, and that is, the president -- and this took me somewhat by surprise -- acknowledged that when this fight started, the Pakistani army, which he used to formally head and probably still does in many respects, miscalculated.
And he says, "We were careless," were his words, that they went in with too little and they were routed in the early days. They're not, in his view, being routed now as he said, pounding them with both artillery. They're using helicopter gun ships to go in.
But you're talking about a wide area, a lot of land. It's very remote. There are places to run and hide. It's that sort of Tora Bora kind of like situation up there, and it will play out over a series of days.
O'BRIEN: Aaron, you point out something which is worth reminding of our audience. This is largely lawless country.
And heretofore, the Pakistanis have been reluctant, as you said Musharraf -- that's a pretty big statement from the president to say they went in without a lot of force. But perhaps for good reason, because of the nature of this part of the world.
I guess it's worth described -- it's hard to overstate how lawless it has been.
BROWN: Well, it is -- it is a -- I wouldn't want to call it a country unto itself. It's really a series of tribes unto themselves. It's been this way for hundreds and hundreds of years. And this -- if you're the government of Pakistan, or if you were the British colonists before, you might, on principle, want to go in there and own it.
But for any practical reason, there was no reason to. It's not like there's a lot of resources there. You're not going to get much out of it. And you're going to find significant resistance as you go.
What Musharraf has tried to do, one of the many juggling acts that this man is faced with, is make contact with these people, to draw them in to Pakistan -- the broader Pakistani society.
He talks in the interview that will air on "NEWSNIGHT" tonight about his meetings with the tribal leaders and how he's attempting to gain their confidence now.
What he doesn't say -- but what we also know is true -- is that there is a stick to the carrot. The military has said it will go in there -- unless these warlords or tribal chieftains cooperate, they'll level houses, they'll do plenty of damage. So it's so not all sweetness and light up there.
It's a tough area, and it's being managed by a tough guy, the president of Pakistan.
O'BRIEN: And just quickly, Aaron, to what extent are U.S. forces aiding?
BROWN: Well, I'll give you a very simple answer: I have no idea. We, we -- and I don't mean that in any way flip. Certainly, no one on the record, on either side, would ever say that U.S. forces are operating in Pakistan. To say that is to -- would be to sabotage a hugely important ally of the United States in President Musharraf.
Now, does that mean that there isn't intelligence help being given? It doesn't mean that, but I'm not suggesting it is.
Could there be drones flying above? Sure, there could be. But I don't know that that's true.
But I guarantee you that on the record no one in the U.S. government and no one in the Pakistani government will say that the Americans -- American military in any way, shape, or form, are involved in anything on the Pakistani side of the border.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Aaron Brown, reporting to us from Islamabad. And you can see that entire interview with President Musharraf tonight on "NEWSNIGHT." That's at 10 p.m. Eastern Time -- Kyra.
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AARON VIA PHONE WITH MILES O'BRIEN APPROX. 2:33PM ET
CNN BREAKING NEWS
Pakistani Military may Have Ayman al-Zawahari Cornered
Aired March 18, 2004 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. As we have been recapping for you, Pakistani military sources in this part of the world believe it is a high-value target. This story first came to us through the courtesy of Aaron Brown who sat down for a lengthy interview with the president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: There has been a fierce -- and I mean fierce -- artillery, helicopter gunships, fierce fight going on in this mountainous region between Afghanistan and Pakistan where the president says his forces, after having a very tough couple of days, by the way, have surrounded a group of al Qaeda fighters.
Now, why do they believe they may have a high-value target in there? This has more to do with deductive reasoning than intelligence. This is the way President Musharraf described his thinking.
PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN: The resistance that is being offered by the people there, we feel that they may and high- value target. I can't say who. But they're giving fierce battle at the moment.
They are not coming out despite the fact we've pounded them with artillery. I spoke to the corps commander right now. I knew you would want ask me this question. So I (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
The net is there. They are there. They see very strong dug-in positions. The houses actually there are almost forts. They are mud forts. And all these forts are occupied. And they are dug in. And they are giving fierce resistance.
So he's reasonably sure there is a high-value target there.
BROWN: We do know that for the last several days in an area that intelligence believes is -- American intelligence believes is rich with both al Qaeda and Taliban forces, an area that has literally existed outside of the control of any government for centuries, is backward in an almost futile way, and where everyone is armed and where no one is very thrilled with any government. There is a major fight going on.
I'd add one other thing, Miles. And that is the president -- and this took me somewhat by surprise -- acknowledged that when this fight started, the Pakistani army, which he used to formally head and probably still does in many respects, miscalculated.
He says, we were careless, were his words, that they went in with too little and they were routed in the early days. They're not, in his view, being routed now. They are, as he said, pounding them with both artillery. They're using helicopter gunships to go in.
But you're talking about a wide area, a lot of land. It's very remote. Its -- there are places to run and hide. Its that he sort of Tora Bora kind of like situation up there. And it will play out over a series of days.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: That was Aaron Brown on the line with us just a little while ago reporting from Islamabad just after his interview with the president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf. You can see that entire interview tonight, 10:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on "NEWSNIGHT."
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AARON VIA PHONE WITH KYRA PHILLIPS APPROX. 2:42PM ET
PHILLIPS: Lawrence, I hate to interrupt you, please stay with us. We want to get to Aaron Brown real quickly who is in the region with some developing information -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, here is what we can report. CNN can now confirm through two sources, one on the Pakistani Intelligence Service, another in the Pakistani Interior Department, that Pakistani forces believe in this group of al Qaeda fighters that they have surrounded in Western Pakistan is the al Qaeda No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahari.
They believe he is among 200 well-trained, extremely well- equipped al Qaeda fighters who are hold up in the area. There is a general plan of action that is now been put into place. The Pakistani government will try and get at them through the air, an air attack, tomorrow.
It's now coming up on 1:00 in the morning here in Islamabad. It's about quarter to 1:00 in the morning. So we're in the dead of night here. Sometime after lightfall it sounds like they will go in with helicopter gunships. But they may go in with fixed-wing and do some bombing as well.
The concern among these sources is pretty simple. You're in a very difficult terrain. And while they describe the scene as we have them surrounded, it's hardly an air-tight net. The feeling is -- or the concern is that al-Zawahari and the others -- or perhaps al- Zawahari and just a few, will try and make some sort of escape tonight. They're obviously doing what they can to prevent that.
But it is the dead of night and that is the risk that they face. The plan is to go in by air tomorrow or at least first light. It's now coming up on 1:00 in the morning Friday morning here in Pakistan.
PHILLIPS: So, Aaron, you've described this area as sort after Tora Bora-type feel. So is the fear that they could escape through underground tunnels, much like what we did see throughout the Operation Enduring Freedom there in Afghanistan? Through caves, through underground tunnels? What do your sources tell you?
BROWN: The fear is that they can escape, period. How they escape, what methods they escape, whether they have a plan to escape, whether there are tunnels, whether there are caves. The concern is that they can get out of this something less than air-tight noose.
You know this is something that is moving -- I'm not sure -- I don't want to speak for the sources beyond what the sources tell us. They are aware that it is not sealed off. They may be surrounded, but it isn't sealed.
PHILLIPS: Do you know if the Pakistani troops outnumber these 200 well-equipped...
BROWN: Well they also certainly -- yes. They absolutely, almost certainly outnumber. This operation which began a couple of days ago didn't start that way.
But the Pakistani army -- and we are now talking not about the paramilitaries that started this operation a couple of days ago, but army regulars -- can throw not hundreds, but if they wanted arguably, they could throw thousands.
But more importantly, they can come in by air. They can use heavy artillery if they want. While we described the al Qaeda operatives in the area as well-equipped, they don't have that kind of equipment. They can't match the fire power of the Pakistani army.
PHILLIPS: Do you know if there is any type of negotiation that's going on at all, Aaron?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I know of no negotiations. I've heard of -- I've heard of no negotiations. And I think it's highly unlikely there are any negotiations going on.
I think that the way to see this is, the way these things logically play out, is if there is an escape plan, a cadre of the al Qaeda fighters and Zawahari will try and get out, while the bulk of the al Qaeda fighters will fight to the death. I think that is a reasonable speculation at this point.
But I -- as you know, I tend to be very conservative in how I report this sort of stuff. I don't want to get much into the speculation business. I think that is a reasonable speculation.
PHILLIPS: Well-equipped al Qaeda fighters. Can you describe well-equipped?
BROWN: Well-equipped includes mortars. They've been engaged in this firefight -- or this battle. I think firefight understates it -- for two days now.
In the first day of it when they were going against the Pakistani paramilitaries, they routed them. They took a number of prisoners, a number of paramilitaries were killed. A couple of -- at least a couple of al Qaeda fighters, one Chechen, one Arab of unknown nationality, was killed. There were a number of prisoners of war or captured on the paramilitary side taken.
So they've got something more than Kalashnikovs at their side and something less than helicopters.
PHILLIPS: And this region, how close were you able to get to this region or did you even get close to that area, Aaron, since you've arrived?
BROWN: No. People need to understand that right now it is virtually impossible for any of us to get to the area. This is an area that for hundreds of years has been completely isolated in many respects from everything in the world.
It is -- I don't exaggerate when I say that you're talking about something that exists in almost the 14th century. It is an area that the Pakistani government did not go into until recent months. It is a tribal area. It is futile in nature. It has its own set of laws, its own set of government.
And virtually everyone in the area, the residents, many of whom have fled, fearing what is about to happen, are all armed and are not particularly loyal to the government in Islamabad. There hardly would be called Pakistani loyalists.
They hadn't been until really even connected to the government of Pakistan until very recently when the government used a sort of carrot and stick approach to try and draw them into the normal course of business of the country itself.
But this is an area that is really -- it is beyond the word remote. If you can have another planet on the planet, this could be it.
PHILLIPS: Aaron, when you take a look at just the background and history of Ayman al-Zawahari, al Qaeda's No. 2, $25 million reward right now on him, founder of Egyptian Islamic Jihad, basically called the brains of al Qaeda, mentor, closest friend to Osama bin Laden.
If indeed he is brought out alive and captured, this is an incredible coup with regard to the war on terror.
BROWN: Well, if he were to come out alive, I'd be one of the most surprised people on the planet. I think, you know, captured or killed is a good way to look at this. And there are very few people that we've spoken to over the last 2 1/2 years who believe that either al-Zawahari or bin Laden himself would allow themselves to be captured.
PHILLIPS: All right, Aaron Brown continuing to report from us there. Almost 1:00 in the morning in Islamabad as right now, Pakistani troops in a severe firefight with, now we can confirm, 200 well-equipped al Qaeda fighters. We are being told now, Aaron, from his sources, that Pakistan planning a massive air attack on this area, on the Afghan-Pakistan border where al Qaeda fighters now believed to be protecting al Qaeda's No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahari, closest friend and mentor and the brains to Osama bin Laden and the brains behind al Qaeda as described by our experts on this man.
Aaron reporting to us, as he's been on assignment there traveling with the secretary of state and also the head of U.S. Centcom, John Abizaid.
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