Dialogue Between Tina, an Evangelical
Protestant, and Kathy, an Orthodox Christian
(copyright Jon Jacobson
, last revised 12 August 2002)
TINA: Hi, Kathy. Thanks for agreeing to have lunch with me.
KATHY: Hi, Tina. Thanks for inviting me.
TINA: Ever since your first day of work at the office, I noticed the large gold cross you wear. I thought that maybe we have something in common (she points to the thin gold cross around her neck).
KATHY: I see—you must be a Christian too.
TINA: Yes. I’ve been born again for twelve years now.
KATHY: So how did you come to faith in Christ?
TINA: Well, I was raised in a Catholic family. Church was just sort of a mechanical routine for me; it was all salvation by works. Then in college I met some people with Campus Crusade for Christ—hey, are you hungry? Why don’t we pray together before we eat? Would you ask the Lord to bless our food?
KATHY: Sure. [Crossing herself] In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen. O Christ our God, bless the food and drink of these Thy servants, the hands that prepared it and those that are about to partake of it, for Thou art holy now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
TINA: Er, thanks. Kathy, I didn’t realize you were Catholic. I hope I didn’t offend you by what I said.
KATHY: I wasn’t offended. And I’m not Roman Catholic, although I do consider myself Catholic.
TINA: What do mean?
KATHY: I’m an Orthodox Catholic Christian, a member of the Orthodox Church.
TINA: Is that like, Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox?
KATHY: Sort of. My parish belongs to the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America, which is in full communion with the Greek and Russian churches. We’re under the Patriarch of Antioch.
TINA: The what?
KATHY: The chief Bishop of Antioch. You know, the place where the disciples were first called Christians?
TINA: You mean the Antioch mentioned in the book of Acts [11:26]?
KATHY: Yes.
TINA: I didn’t think there were any Christians left in that part of the world anymore. I thought everyone in that part of the Middle East became Muslim about a thousand years ago.
KATHY: No, not everyone became Muslim. There has been a succession of bishops at Antioch from the Apostle Peter, and the current one lives in Damascus in Syria. You know, the place where St. Paul was baptized [Acts 9:1-18].
TINA: My church doesn’t have bishops. We have a senior pastor, a youth pastor, and a board of elders—just like the New Testament Church.
KATHY: Bishops are actually mentioned in the book of Acts, Chapter 1, verse 20. After Judas dies, Peter says that someone else needs to fill his office. He says, Let another take his episkopen, or episcopate.
TINA: I don’t recall reading that in my translation. (Opens her Bible.) The NIV says, May another take his place of leadership.
KATHY: If you look at the original Greek, you’ll see that what I’m saying is correct. In any case, St. Paul mentions bishops in his letters to Timothy and Titus. St. Ignatius was bishop of Antioch in the late 1st and early 2nd Centuries. He wrote that the Eucharist was only valid if it was celebrated by a bishop or by someone he appoints. He also wrote that, apart from the bishop, presbyters, and deacons, no gathering could be called the Church.
TINA: I disagree. Jesus said, Where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them [Matt. 18:20].
KATHY: Have you considered the wider context of that verse? Read the entire section in Matthew 18, Tina.
TINA: Okay. (reading Matt. 18:15-20) If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that "every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat thim as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever your bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For when two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.
KATHY: Jesus is teaching here about discipline in His Church. He tells the Apostles that, if someone sins and and refuses to reconcile with those whom he has harmed, then leaders should excommunicate the offender from the Church. The two or three people to whom Christ gives the authority to bind and to loose, and to have their prayers granted, aren’t just any random pair of Christians. They are leaders in agreement with the Apostles, and in agreement with their successors as leaders of the Church, the bishops.
TINA: I’m not so sure. In the New Testament, aren’t bishops the same as elders [Acts 20:17,28, Titus 1:5-9]?
KATHY: There were distinctions between the elders, that is, the presbyters—not all of them had the power of ordination that Sts. Timothy and Titus had. By the 2nd Century, the term "bishop" was being reserved for presbyters who had the power to ordain.
TINA: My faith is based on the Bible alone—not on the traditions that developed later in Christianity. You know how Jesus warned about following traditions of men instead of the commands of God [Mark 7:8].
KATHY: I agree that we shouldn’t contradict Scripture. But I also agree with St. Paul when he wrote, Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. It’s in 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
TINA: Let’s see (looks up passage). I use the New International Version. It says, So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. I don’t see anything about "traditions."
KATHY: Look at the footnote, though.
TINA: Oh, I see it. It says "Or, traditions." And the note in my study Bible says, "Literally, ‘traditions.’ Until the New Testament was written, essential Christian teaching was passed on in the ‘traditions,’ just as rabbinic law was; it could be either oral or written."
KATHY: The handing down of Tradition outside of Scripture continued, even after the New Testament was completed, since there were no printing presses, and most believers were illiterate. Many of the early Church Fathers wrote about the importance of the oral Tradition for interpreting Scripture correctly.
TINA: Church Fathers--you mean men like St. Augustine?
KATHY: Yes, St. Augustine of Hippo, but also Fathers who lived before him—like St. Irenaeus of Lyons in the 2nd Century, St. Cyprian of Carthage in the 3rd Century, and St. Athanasius of Alexandria in the 4th Century.
TINA: I think I’ve heard of Athanasius before. But why do you need Tradition? The Bible says that the Scriptures are able to make us wise for salvation and are all God-breathed. That’s in 2 Timothy 3:14-16.
KATHY: I agree, except if you took that passage literally, you wouldn’t even require Christians to use the New Testament.
TINA: What do you mean?
KATHY: I mean, when St. Paul wrote that, there was no New Testament Canon yet, and the Scriptures he was referring to, that St. Timothy knew from infancy, were the Old Testament, probably the Greek version known as the Septuagint that St. Paul and the other Apostles usually quote from.
TINA: Oh.
KATHY: Don’t get me wrong—I’m not saying the New Testament isn’t necessary. I’m just saying that, if you point to that verse to argue that Scripture alone is necessary for salvation, then you’d have to say that nothing more than the Old Testament is required.
TINA: That’s definitely not what I believe.
KATHY: Remember when the Ethiopian eunuch was reading the Book of Isaiah and St. Philip asked him if he understood what he was reading? He said, How can I, unless someone guides me? [Acts 8:31] St. Peter wrote that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. [2 Peter 1:20] We have to contend for the Faith delivered once for all to the Saints [Jude 3]. That’s the reason we Orthodox rely on Holy Tradition, which is the never-changing teaching of the Church.
TINA: Never-changing, huh? I’ve always been taught that the Catholic Church changed all sorts of things, adding all sorts of human traditions to the teaching of the Apostles.
KATHY: If you mean the Roman Catholic Church, then yes, I agree that there are things that Rome has added to Holy Tradition. Like the change to the Creed.
TINA: At my non-denominational church, we have a saying, "We have no creed but Christ, no book but the Bible." We do have a statement of faith, though. It’s all based on Scripture.
KATHY: The Creed I mean is the statement of faith accepted by the whole Church in both the East and West in the year A.D. 381, about two decades before the New Testament Canon was agreed on by the whole Church. This Creed is called the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. See, here it is in the Orthodox Study Bible I use: I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made: Who for us mean and for our salvation came down from heaven and was made incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man; And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; The Third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; And ascended into haven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the Resurrection of the dead and the Life of the world to come. Amen.
TINA: That sounds familiar from my Catholic days. So what’s the deal about Rome changing the Creed?
KATHY: Well, originally Rome and the Orthodox were in full communion—they were the same Church. Then the Pope claimed the authority to change the Creed and add the phrase "and the Son" after the expression, I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father. This was despite the fact that several Ecumenical Councils had said that a different Creed couldn’t be adopted. Two 9th Century Popes taught that to add this phrase to the Creed, saying that both the Father and the Son are the eternal Cause of the Spirit, would be heretical. But in the 11th Century, the Roman Church began to recite the Creed in its altered form, and the Pope excommunicated the Orthodox Patriarchs for refusing to go along. The two churches have been separated ever since.
TINA: Are there any other Catholic, er, Roman Catholic doctrines that the Orthodox Church disagrees with?
KATHY: Well, we don’t accept that the Pope is always infallible when he defines a doctrine. We also don’t believe in the doctrine of Purgatory and Indulgences, and we don’t teach the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
TINA: I agree with you on all of those issues. It sounds like you Orthodox are close to us Protestants, even though you have bishops. Are you sort of like Episcopalians?
KATHY: I don’t want to mislead you. Although we reject Purgatory and Indulgences, we do pray for the dead, and offer the Eucharist and alms in their memory. And we do ask holy Mary, the Mother of God, to pray for us.
TINA: Wait a minute—those are the sorts of things my Catholic relatives do! The Bible doesn’t teach us to do any of those things. Unless you are thinking of the Apocrypha--
KATHY: We accept as part of the Old Testament the books you call the Apocrypha, which were included in the Septuagint—the Greek version of the Old Testament used by the Apostles. One of these books, 2 Maccabees, teaches both that it is good and useful to offer prayers for the dead, that their sins might be forgiven [2 Macc. 12:39-46]. This same book also teaches that the saints in Heaven offer their prayers for us [2 Macc. 15:11-16].
TINA: As I’ve told you, I can’t accept things that aren’t taught in Scripture, and I don’t accept 2 Maccabees as Scripture, since Christ and the Apostles never quote from it. Besides, I don’t see how praying for the dead does any good. They are either saved and in Heaven, if they accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior in this life, or else they are unsaved and in Hell, and our prayers can’t help them.
KATHY: But, from our standpoint, the departed haven’t yet been raised from the dead, and they haven’t appeared before the judgment seat of Christ, have they? That’s why St. Paul could pray for someone who died.
TINA: The Apostle Paul, praying for the dead? Where’s that in Scripture?
KATHY: It’s here in 2 Timothy 1:16-18. The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
TINA: I don’t think I ever underlined those verses. But how do you defend asking dead saints to pray for you? Isn’t that the same as King Saul trying to get a medium to conjure up the spirit of Samuel [1 Sam. 28]?
KATHY: Invoking the Saints in Heaven isn’t the same as using a medium. We’re not trying to get the dead to speak to us, we are merely asking them to pray for us just like we ask each other to pray for us. Besides, as Christ said, the Saints are not dead to God, for all live to Him [Luke 20:38].
TINA: But why do you call Mary "the Mother of God"? I was taught to say the Hail Mary when I was Catholic, but when I got saved I realized that it was unbiblical and Mariolatry
KATHY: The Hail Mary is taken straight from Scripture. Look in Luke 1. The Archangel Gabriel says to Mary, Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. And St. Elizabeth adds, Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [Luke 1:28,42-43] Remember, Jews often used the term "Lord" for God, and St. Thomas called Jesus my Lord and my God [John 20:28]. If Jesus wasn’t God, His death on the Cross was the death of only a man. How could that save us? You do believe that Jesus Christ is truly man and truly God, don’t you?
TINA: Yes, I believe Jesus is true man and true God. I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness. But the expression "Mother of God" still seems misleading—it reminds me of pagan goddess worship.
KATHY: Most Orthodox use the expression Theotokos, which means "she who conceived, carried, and gave birth to God." By "Mother of God", we mean "Mother of God the Son" according to His humanity. We never say that Mary gave birth to Christ’s divinity, or that the Holy Trinity was born of Mary. See this picture of Mary, called an icon, in my Bible? Orthodox icons of the Theotokos almost always have Christ at their center, to show us that just as she welcomed Christ into her life, we should welcome Him into the center of our lives.
TINA: I like that better than those Catholic statues of Mary, all alone with Jesus. But how do you know Mary prays for us? Or any other saint in Heaven, for that matter.
KATHY: Because of the Tradition of the Church, and the teaching of Scripture itself. Look at Revelation 5:8.
TINA: Okay, I found it. …the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
KATHY: See, the Saints in Heaven offer prayers to God, both for us and for all of God’s people. Christ says the same thing about our guardian angels: Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. That’s Matthew 18:10.
TINA: I’ll underline that verse, too. But how can you be so sure that the saints hear your prayer requests?
KATHY: Because Christ tells us that there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. [Luke 12:2] He also tells us that there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. [Luke 15:10] The parable of the rich man and Lazarus [Luke 16:19-31] shows how Abraham and the other Old Testament Saints are aware of things that have happened on earth after their death.
TINA: I would still like to see one verse in Scripture that gives an example of invoking the saints and angels.
KATHY: I can think of three verses. First, from the Psalm 103 [v. 20], Bless the LORD, you His angels, who excel in strength, who do His word, heeding the voice of His word , and from Psalm 148 [v. 2] Praise Him, all His angels; praise Him all His hosts! Then, from the book of Acts [16:9], St. Paul, even while he is still on earth, receives a vision from God in which a man prays, Come over to Macedonia and help us.
TINA: I’m not sure that I’d interpret those verses the same way you do. The Psalms call on trees and mountains to praise the Lord, too—that doesn’t mean I’m going to ask Mt. Everest to pray for me. And that vision Paul received seems like a special case. Besides, I can quote a lot of passages in Scripture [Acts 10:25-26, 14:11-15, Col. 2:18, Rev. 19:10, 22:8-9] that tell us not to worship the saints or the angels.
KATHY: I agree with you—we should never give a creature the honor that belongs to God alone. Christ said, You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve [Matt. 4:10]. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t honor or venerate the Saints. Christ Himself tells the Saints at Philadelphia, I will make those of the synagogue…come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you [Rev. 3:9]. Absolute worship or adoration belongs to God alone; but relative worship or veneration belongs to the Saints and holy objects. There are different words in Greek for each kind of honor; adoration is called latria and veneration is called dulia or proskynesis. The Seventh Ecumenical Council made this same distinction when it endorsed the custom of venerating the holy icons with candles and incense.
TINA: So you believe in giving veneration, not only to the saints, but to images? Doesn’t that violate the Second Commandment? [Exod. 20:4-6, Deut. 5:8-10]
KATHY: The Second Commandment forbade Israel from depicting God in the form of any creature, because He had not revealed Himself that way to them [Deut. 4:15-18]. But now that God the Son has become flesh [John 1:14], we can depict Him in icons, because He was made like us in every way except sin [Heb. 2:14-18, 4:15].
TINA: Okay, I agree that we can have pictures of Jesus, like those in The Beginner’s Bible that my kids read. But how do you get from there to venerating images?
KATHY: An icon of Christ should be venerated because of what it is, an image of God the Son according to the flesh. For the same reason, we should honor every human being, because he or she is created in the image of God [Gen. 1:26-27, 9:5-6].
TINA: Sounds logical, but I can’t imagine the Apostles burning candles and incense before images of Christ, not to mention images of Mary and other saints. It sounds too bizarre, not to mention pagan, like when the Israelites burned incense to the image of the bronze serpent [2 Kings 18:4].
KATHY: Venerating the serpent as the image of a pagan snake god was a terrible sin, a violation of the First and Second Commandments [Exod. 20:3-6, Deut. 5:7-10]. But God demonstrates His approval of the lawful veneration of images and relics of the saints by working miracles through those same images and relics.
TINA: That sounds pretty superstitious to me.
KATHY: Consider the image of the bronze serpent itself, through which God healed the sick [Num. 21:6-9], and which must have been kept for centuries by the Israelites without idolatry. Or the bones of Elisha, through which God raised the dead [2 Kings 13:20-21]. The same sort of thing happened in the book of Acts, where God heals the sick through an image, St. Peter’s shadow [Acts 5:12-16], and through a relic, a handerkerchief that had touched St. Paul [Acts 19:11-12].
TINA: But there’s nothing in the book of Acts that describes painted images being used in worship, and burning incense before those images, or about relics being kept in places of worship.
KATHY: There isn’t any mention of them strumming guitars and using overhead projectors, either, but does that stop you Protestants from worshipping that way? Look, I’m not saying the Apostles had exactly the same customs that Orthodox have today, but the idea of using relics, images, and incense wasn’t foreign to them, because of the Jewish tradition of worship in the Tabernacle and Temple. Look at Hebrews 9:1-5.
TINA: Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table, and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. Okay, I agree that Israel worshiped this way. But that was a different dispensation. Now we believers are no longer under the Law, and we can worship God more freely, from our hearts, in spirit and in truth [John 4:24].
KATHY: I agree we need to put our hearts into worship, but we need to use our bodies, too. St. Paul wrote, glorify God in your body. [1 Cor. 6:20]
TINA: Speaking of which, my body is stuffed; I have no room left for this cream-filled donut. Would you like it?
KATHY: No thanks, I’m fasting today.
TINA: What do you mean, fasting? It’s not Lent on the Orthodox calendar, is it?
KATHY: No, but it’s Wednesday, and we Orthodox fast on most Wednesdays and Fridays.
TINA: Fasting twice a week? Where did that custom come from?
KATHY: It goes back to the Jewish custom of fasting twice a week [Luke 18:12], on Mondays and Thursdays as well as on the Day of Atonement [Lev. 23:26-32]. Christ expected His disciples to fast, too [Matt. 6:16-18, 9:14-15]. Remember, He said, "When you fast...", not "If you fast..." The early Christians decided to fast on Wednesdays in memory of Christ’s betrayal, and on Fridays in memory of Christ’s death. Today Orthodox Christians also fast during Lent, during Advent, and at a few other times during the year. The Christian Day of Atonement, Great and Holy Friday, is a day of strict fasting for Orthodox Christians, just like Yom Kippur is for the Jews.
TINA: But if you’re fasting today, why are you eating that hummus sandwich but not a cream-filled donut?
KATHY: We usually fast, not from all food and drink, but from all animal products, just like Daniel and his friends did [Dan.1:8-16]. This was the custom of practically all Christians until the 14th Century or so, when the Pope approved of eating fish during Lent and other fasting periods.
TINA: I grew up eating fish on Fridays. But doesn’t Scripture condemn the practice of making a distinction between foods? [Rom. 14:17, Col. 2:16-23, 1 Tim. 4:1-5]
KATHY: We don’t believe that animal products are unclean, like some vegetarian Gnostics did, nor do we insist on the Kosher rules like the Jews. We abstain from animal products only for a time, to devote ourselves to fasting and prayer [cf. 1 Cor. 7:5]. Once the fast is over, we gladly eat meat, eggs, and dairy products again.
TINA: Sounds like you have to follow more rules and regulations than I had to obey when I was Catholic. My mother told me to do things like fasting and the Rosary in order to gain "merit" with God.
KATHY: We Orthodox don’t think of ourselves as meriting bonus points from God. We always try to view ourselves as unworthy servants [Luke 17:10]. Before we receive Communion, each of us says a prayer that begins, I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief [Matt. 16:16, 1 Tim. 1:15].
TINA: If I visited an Orthodox service, would I be allowed to take Communion?
KATHY: Not if you refuse to embrace the Orthodox Faith and submit to the discipline of the Church.
TINA: That sounds pretty exclusive, like you’re claiming a monopoly on God’s grace. At my church, any believer who loves the Lord can partake of His Supper. On Sundays when he observe the ordinance, that is.
KATHY: We Orthodox recognize that God is at work among Protestants, Roman Catholics, and even non-Christians. But the Church doesn’t believe in open communion—that would be like two people who sort of like each other having sex before marriage! The early Church didn’t believe in sharing the Eucharist with the non-Orthodox, either.
TINA: That’s because in the early Church, all Christians were visibly united, right?
KATHY: Quite the opposite. There were many different kinds of Christianity during the time of the early Church, some of them deeply heretical in their teachings, and others simply schismatic, refusing to submit to the discipline of the Church’s legitimate leaders. Of a schismatic, Christ taught, If he refuses to listen to the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector [Matt. 18:17, cf. Titus 3:10-11]. Of a heretic, St. John taught, Whoever goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him, for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds [2 John 9-11].
KATHY: Let’s suppose I agreed with everything the Orthodox Church teaches, and I was willing to obey Orthodox leaders and submit to their authority [Heb. 13:17]. Could I take Communion then?
KATHY: As a Protestant, you would first need to go through a period of instruction, attending several sessions of a Catechumen’s Class. If you have already been baptized in the Name of the Trinity, you would then need to be chrismated—anointed with oil blessed by a bishop; it’s sort of like confirmation. Then, after confessing all your sins to Father, and a strict fast from midnight before the Liturgy, you could receive Communion.
TINA: Confessing all my sins to my father? Why do I need to tell my Dad?
KATHY: I don’t mean your earthly father, I mean your spiritual father, your priest. He would then be able to give you the word of absolution on behalf of Christ and His Church, as well as counsel you in the spiritual life. It was my spiritual father who helped me set up a rule of morning and evening prayer and daily Bible reading.
TINA: Oh, that kind of father. But since you read the Bible so much, I assume you would know that Jesus told us not to call anyone on earth "Father" [Matt. 23:9].
KATHY: Then why did you call your own dad "father", if you’re going to take Christ so literally? St. Paul himself wrote that he became a spiritual father to the Corinthians through the Gospel [1 Cor. 4:15].
TINA: Okay, but why do I have to confess all of my sins to a priest? I gave that up when I left the Catholic Church. Why should I confess my sins to anyone but God alone? Only God can forgive my sins [Mark 2:7].
KATHY: Christ gave His Church the authority to forgive sins when He said, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained [John 20:22-23].
TINA: That means every believer has the power to declare that whoever accepts Christ as their personal Lord and Savior has all of their sins forgiven.
KATHY: If that were the case, why would St. James tell people who are sick because they have committed sins to call for the presbyters of the church to receive anointing with oil and to confess their sins [James 5:14-16]? Every sin we commit affects the Body of Christ of which we are members. For that reason, we need to be reconciled with the Church and not simply with God alone. The priest represents both Christ and the Church.
TINA: I think we can confess our sins to any other believer—it doesn’t have to be to an elder or a pastor. And as for calling your pastor "priest", I believe in the priesthood of all believers [1 Peter 2:9, Rev. 1:4-6].
KATHY: So do we—but that doesn’t rule out a sacramental priesthood. Israel was a "kingdom of priests" [Exod. 19:6], yet there were certain duties that only ordained priests could perform. Korah and his fellow rebels got into trouble when they thought they could make themselves equal to Moses and Aaron [Num. 16, Jude 11].
TINA: You obviously have a high regard for your clergy. But you forget that religious leaders can be pretty corrupt morally, like the teachers of the law who loved to wear flowing robes and recite long prayers [Luke 20:45-47]. I’ve read stories in the news about so-called Orthodox Christians in Serbia involved in ethnic cleansing, and about Orthodox bishops in Russia helping the secret police persecute Evangelicals and Roman Catholics. It’s horrible.
KATHY: I agree, these examples you give are clear contradictions of Christ’s teaching about loving our neighbors as ourselves. But as long as an Orthodox bishop teaches that we should love our neighbor—including those of different religions and ethnic groups--we should submit to that bishop’s authority, even if he has personal moral failings. As Christ said, The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, but that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do [Matt. 23:2-3].
TINA: But Jesus’ teaching was only for Jews under the former Dispensation—the Old Covenant.
KATHY: The teaching applies today to Christians under the bishops of the Church, who sit in the seats of the Apostles.
TINA: If a bishop ever teaches contrary to the Bible, I’d say, We must obey God rather than men [Acts 5:29]!
KATHY: I agree that we shouldn’t listen to any bishop—not even to a Patriarch—if he teaches any gospel contrary to the one received from the beginning by the Church [Gal. 1:6-9]. There were Ecumenical Councils that condemned a Patriarch of Constantinople and even a Pope as heretics.
TINA: I’ll add that to the list of things they never taught be in Catholic school.
KATHY: Orthodoxy views all of the faithful as the guardians of the original Apostolic Gospel.
TINA: So, since you consider yourself a guardian of the Apostolic Gospel, do you believe in justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone?
KATHY: No.
TINA: You don’t?! How can you claim to uphold the original Apostolic Gospel?
KATHY: We believe salvation is only by God’s grace, but we don’t rule out the role of free will in coopearting with that grace. We Orthodox call this "synergy"—St. Paul referred to it when he wrote, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure [Phil. 2:12-13] .
TINA: St. Paul’s talking about sanctification, not about justification. Justification is through faith alone.
KATHY: Then how could St. James write, You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone [James 2:24]?
TINA: I was taught that, for James, unlike Paul, faith meant merely intellectual assent. Saving faith is more than that—it’s trusting God to save you because of Christ’s blood shed for you on the Cross. It’s that sort of faith that saves us, apart from good works of God’s law. I think you’re confusing justification with sanctification.
KATHY: "Justification" and "sanctification" are just two different ways of describing our salvation in Christ, Who became for us wisdom from God, and justification and sanctification and redemption [1 Cor. 1:30]. Another word for salvation is "glorification" or theosis [divinization]—our becoming partakers of the divine nature [2 Peter 1:4] by God’s grace.
TINA: I realize it’s in a verse in the Bible, but all that talk about becoming divine by grace scares me. It’s too similar to Adam and Eve’s desire to become gods [Gen. 3:5].
KATHY: Adam and Eve wanted to become like God apart from God, not in fellowship with God. That’s a key difference.
TINA: I agree, but I think the Bible is clear that fellowship with God is through faith alone. Good worrks are a totally separate matter; they have to do with rewards, not salvation. I assume I don’t need to quote Romans 3:28 or Ephesians 2:8-9 for you?
KATHY: No, but even St. Paul recognized an inseparable connection between good works and justification when he wrote, not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified [Rom. 2:13].
TINA: He was writing hypothetically. If someone could obey the law perfectly, they would be saved. But all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God [Rom. 3:23], and are saved by faith in Christ alone [Gal. 2:16]. Remember, eternal life is the gift of God, not something we earn [Rom. 6:23].
KATHY: I agree that eternal life is a free gift of God, given to us only in Christ. But that doesn’t mean their aren’t conditions attached for us to draw benefits from this gift. How else could the St. Paul write that those who fulfill the lust of the flesh... will not inherit the kingdom of God [Gal. 5:16,21]?
TINA: Paul’s not talking about people who are true believers. True believer’s can’t lose their salvation. Jesus promised, My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand [John 10:27-28].
KATHY: Christ’s promise is true of the elect, but we can’t be absolutely sure in this life that we are the elect.
TINA: What about the promise in 1 John [5:13], I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life? You can know for sure you are going to Heaven.
KATHY: First of all, St. John’s promise only applies to those in the Church, since he wrote of those who left the Church, They went out from us, bu they were not of us [1 John 2:19]. Second of all, even those in the Church need to be careful that they do not lose their love for God or neighbor, since St. John wrote, God is love, and he who abides in love in abides in God, and God in him [1 John 4:16].
TINA: I agree about love flowing from true faith, but I disagree with the idea of losing your salvation. If you think you’ve lost it, it means you never had it. The Bible says, No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God [1 John 3:9].
KATHY: Again, I think St. John is thinking of the elect, but each of us needs to be diligent to make our call and election sure by adding to our faith goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love [2 Peter 1:5-6, 10].
TINA: I agree. I won’t argue with you as long as you only quote from Scripture.
KATHY: But even St. Peter warns his readers, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position [2 Peter 3:17, see also Luke 8:13, John 15:5-6, Rom.11:17-22, 1 Cor. 10:12, Heb. 6:4-8, 10:26-39, and 2 Peter 2:20-22]. And St. Paul wrote of himself, I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified [1 Cor. 9:27].
TINA: I understand that as being disqualified from a particular reward, not from Heaven itself. Tell me, Kathy, since you lack a clear assurance of salvation, how do you know that you’ve even been born again?
KATHY: Oh, that’s easy. I’ve been born again because I’ve been born of water and the Spirit in Holy Baptism [John 3:5], which St. Paul called the washing of regeneration [Titus 3:5].
TINA: Kathy, you’re confusing the symbol of new birth with the reality. Baptism doesn’t save you—faith in Christ does. Remember, St. Paul says he came to preach the Gospel, not to baptize [1 Cor. 1:17].
KATHY: Actually, I think Scripture teaches that God saves us through both faith in Christ and Baptism. Look at 1 Peter 3:21, where St. Peter talks about how the waters of the Flood prefigured the waters of Baptism.
TINA: (reading Bible) …and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the boy but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
KATHY: See, we Orthodox take Baptism seriously because Christ and the Apostles took it seriously.
TINA: So you believe that God regenerates even little babies who are only sprinkled with water?
KATHY: Well, in the Orthodox Church we usually baptize by triple immersion, even in the case of infants. And yes, we believe that infants are born again in Baptism, and that they feed on Christ’s true Body and Blood in Communion.
TINA: You give Communion to infants?! But don’t they disrupt the whole church service?
KATHY: We’ve sort of gotten used to having them there with us during the Liturgy. After all, Jesus says, Let the little children come to Me [Luke 18:16].
TINA: I don’t see how any ritual can benefit someone who can’t understand it. This just reminds me of the magical view of the sacraments I was taught in the Catholic Church. Do you believe in transubstantiation too?
KATHY: We believe that the consecrated bread and wine are the true Body and Blood of Christ, if that’s what you mean, just as Christ Himself said [Matt. 26:26-28], St. Paul affirmed [1 Cor. 10:16-17], and the Church has always believed. You don’t think people would get ill and even die for partaking unworthily of mere symbols, do you [1 Cor. 11:27-32]?
TINA: I just can’t accept that Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are anything more than symbols. The sort of sacramentalism you are talking about just strikes me as incredibly superstitious.
KATHY: Then you’re understanding Scripture according to some modern person’s private interpretation [2 Peter 1:20], rather than according to the centuries-old consensus of the Fathers and Mothers of the Church.
TINA: Maybe that’s the difference between us, Kathy—I stand on the Word of God alone, while you stand on Scripture plus all of these traditions of your Church Fathers and Mothers.
KATHY: The way I would put it, you stand on your own interpretation of the Word of God, while I stand on the interpretation of the Word of God agreed upon by all or nearly all Orthodox Christians throughout history.
TINA: Nobody’s perfect, not even a Church Father, and not the leaders of the Orthodox Church today.
KATHY: I agree with you on that one, Tina—as individuals, we’re all fallible sinners. Only the communion of the Church as a whole is infallible.
TINA: How are you so sure that the Orthodox Church’s interpretation of Scripture is correct?
KATHY: Because Christ promised that the gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church [Matt. 16:18], and that both He [Matt. 28:20] and the Holy Spirit [John 14:16] would be with her forever, to lead her into all truth [John 16:13]. Christ’s Body is never severed from its Head, and the Head never allows the whole Body to fall into error.
TINA: I agree that the Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations [Matt. 24:14, cf. Luke 24:47]. But I understand all of the other promises as applying to the Apostles only; after them, false teachers arose who deceived most Christians. [Acts 20:29-30] The Church became corrupt.
KATHY: If the Church led by the Apostles’ successors was so corrupt as to have a false view of the Gospel, how could the Apostle Paul call St. Timothy’s Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth [1 Tim. 3:15]? That Church wasn’t led by Paul himself, but rather by teachers appointed by him to teach others [2 Tim. 2:2]. I’m surprised you believe that the Church became so corrupt, when you trust God to have led her to identify and transmit the New Testament Canon around this very same period of time.
TINA: It’s always been that way with the Church, corruption being everywhere. Only God’s Word remains pure. Just like in the Old Testament, when there was one good king of Judah, and then he was followed immediately by his son who was an idolater. But the Scriptures never ceased to be true, and a pure understanding of them was recovered by the Reformers.
KATHY: If your view is correct, where were all of the Saints between the death of the Apostles and the Reformation?
TINA: Most of them are probably unknown to us. But there were some famous ones, like Augustine.
KATHY: Could I encourage you to read St. Augustine and the other Church Fathers? You might be surprised at how different their understanding of the Christian Faith is from modern Evangelicalism.
TINA: I’ll consider it. And could I invite you to visit church with me sometime? My pastor is a great preacher; he really opens up the Word of God and applies it to practical issues in our lives. I hope you can visit and see how the Spirit of God is at work at my church.
KATHY: I’d like to, but I have an obligation to attend the Liturgy at my Church on Sunday mornings. Is there a Sunday evening service I could visit with you?
TINA: Yes, next Sunday we’re having one of our missionaries speak about his work with an unreached people group.
KATHY: That sounds interesting. I’ll concede that you Evangelicals put most of us Orthodox to shame in terms of outreach. We Orthodox need to return to our missionary roots and take evangelization of unreached people groups more seriously.
TINA: It’s good to hear that you don’t think your church is perfect in every way.
KATHY: Having the fullness of the Faith doesn’t mean that we Orthodox bother to live in accordance with that fullness. Sometimes you Protestants do more with the less you have than we Orthodox do with all of Holy Tradition. Why don’t we make a deal: my husband and I will attend a Sunday evening service with you to hear this missionary of yours, if you and your family attend the Divine Liturgy with us on the next Sunday morning.
TINA: Okay, except you know that many of us nondenominational Evangelicals are suspicious of liturgical worship. All those vain repetitions [Matt. 6:7] during the litanies, you know.
KATHY: Well, there is a lot of repetition, but I don’t think it’s in vain. It’s sort of like telling my husband I love him--I do it a lot, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t from my heart. Speaking of litanies, Tina, have you ever read Psalm 136? You know, His mercy endures forever? St. Paul told us to sing psalms [Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16], and Jesus no doubt chanted these sorts of prayers as part of His regular worship in the synagogue [Luke 4:16].
TINA: I grant your point—not all repetition in worship is in vain. I must say "thank you Jesus" dozens of times each day. Kathy, could you email me more information about your parish?
KATHY: Sure. And you can email me directions to your church. Thanks for the invitation for lunch.
TINA: Thanks for agreeing to get together! See you later. God bless.
KATHY: God bless you! Bye.
END