A Dialogue Between "John" (an Evangelical Anglican) and "Gregory" (an Orthodox Christian)

1. Introduction

JOHN: Hello, Gerald, how are you?

GREGORY: Hello, John. I'm doing well, thanks. And I now go by the name Gregory.

JOHN: Why did you change your name?

GREGORY: Well, I was recently chrismated (that is, confirmed) in the Orthodox Church, and St. Gregory Palamas is the name of the 14^th Century Orthodox Church Father I took as my patron Saint.

JOHN: Oh, I see-sort of like Saul of Tarsus becoming Paul the Apostle. Why did you become Eastern Orthodox-weren't you happy being an Evangelical Episcopalian?

GREGORY: Actually, I was very happy being an Evangelical Episcopalian, the controversies in the Episcopal Church notwithstanding. But then I became convinced that the Orthodox Church is true.

JOHN: What do you mean, Gerald-er, I mean, Gregory?

GREGORY: I became convinced that the Church that is descended from the ancient Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, and that is spread throughout the world today, is the fullness of what the Apostle Paul called the "Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" we confess in the Creed. I became convinced that I had to belong to her in order to do nothing against the truth of Christ (2 Corinthians 13:8).

2. The One True Church?

JOHN: Hmm. We Episcopalians have always considered ourselves to be part of the true Church, but we have never sought to "un-church" other Christians by describing ourselves as the only true Church. Why do you Eastern Orthodox make such a triumphalistic and exclusive claim for yourselves?

GREGORY: We Orthodox don't deny the large areas of agreement between ourselves and other Christians, especially Trinitarian, liturgical Christians like Episcopalians, Roman Catholics, and Lutherans. The reason we confess, in all humility, the Orthodox Church to be "the fullness of Him who fills all in all" (Ephesians 1:23) is that we believe that where Orthodoxy and the other Christian confessions happen to disagree on matters of faith or universal practice, Orthodoxy is right, and the other Christian confessions are wrong.

JOHN: Well, I am glad you admit that we have things in common, although I have to admit I'm a little offended by your superiority complex. Why do you think that you're better than other Christians?

GREGORY: Understand, John: I'm not saying that Orthodox Christians are better Christians than other kinds of Christians. God knows that there are many non-Orthodox Christians--like C. S. Lewis, Mother Teresa, and Billy Graham--who have been far more faithful to the teachings of Christ than most Orthodox Christians have been. What I'm saying is that the Orthodox Church, as a whole, has, by God's grace, been preserved in the true Faith and true worship in a way that the other Christian bodies, sad to say, have not.

JOHN: That still sounds pretty prideful to me, even if the pride is in your Church rather than yourself.

GREGORY: It is not pride, John-it is a conviction that Orthodoxy is the Narrow Path spoken of by Christ (Matthew 7:13-14). We believe that, as He promised, Christ has never forsaken His Bride the Church, but has preserved her in the truth. Remember, Christ taught that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:16-19), that He would be with His disciples always (Matthew 28:18-20), and that the Holy Spirit would also be with them forever and lead them into all truth (John 14:16, 16:13).

JOHN: I've always viewed these promises as applying to the Apostles themselves, and to those who wrote the New Testament, but not necessarily to the future generations of the Church.

GREGORY: The Apostle Paul described the Church of his disciple, Timothy, as "the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15) When did this description cease to be true of the Body of Christ? If the true Church had ever disappeared from the earth, wouldn't the gates of Hades have prevailed against her?

JOHN: Not necessarily. Perhaps the truth of the Apostolic teaching became obscured for several centuries, but was then restored through the teaching of Reformers like Luther, Calvin, and Wesley.

GREGORY: Are you saying that the true Church actually died out? If so, you're contradicting the Lutheran and Reformed confessions. The Lutheran Augsburg Confession (VII), for example, says that the "the one holy church is to continue forever", and the Reformed Westminster Confession (25:4-5) says that there shall always be a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.

JOHN: Yes, but the same part of the Westminster Confession to which you refer states that the true Church is sometimes more and sometimes less visible, and sometimes more and sometimes less pure. I would argue that Eastern Orthodoxy is a legitimate but less pure version of the Christian faith than the Evangelical, Reformed Catholic Christianity practiced by Evangelical Anglicans such as myself.

GREGORY: And I thought you were accusing us Orthodox of spiritual pride.

JOHN: Actually, I think my view of Christianity is far more humble than yours, because we Reformation Christians don't claim to be the only true Church, or a Church free from doctrinal error, but simply the most doctrinally pure Church that God has placed on earth so far in human history. We affirm you as brothers and sisters in Christ, and welcome you to receive Holy Communion in our churches. You Orthodox, on the other hand, accuse us Protestants of being heretics who are outside the Church. There are even Orthodox churches that refuse to accept Western Christians' baptisms as valid.

3. The Status of Non-Orthodox Christians

GREGORY: John, I want to set the record straight: canonical Orthodox churches accept non-Orthodox Christians who have been baptized in the name of the Trinity as our Christian brothers and sisters, and, by economy, receive such Christians into the Orthodox Church via Chrismation, without rebaptism.

JOHN: All right. But if you recognize our baptisms, why do you view us as outside the Church?

GREGORY: We recognize you as having many things that are of the Church, such as Baptism and the New Testament Canon, but you yourselves are sadly not in the Church, so long as you remain non-Orthodox and thereby cling in body, soul, and spirit to deviations from the Apostolic and Catholic Faith.

JOHN: But if Western Christians are outside of the true Church, and "outside the Church there is no salvation", as St. Cyprian of Carthage taught, does that mean that you deny that we are saved?

GREGORY: It is true, there is no salvation outside the Church, because salvation, that is, our life in Christ, is the Church. But perhaps you have a spiritual connection to the one Church that will result in your being united to her, either in this life or in the life to come. Christ said that He had sheep that were not yet part of the one visible fold that He had established (John 10:16), and we do not know the full number of people who will appear as members of the one Church on the Day of the Lord.

4. Assurance of Salvation

JOHN: It sounds like you are pretty uncertain about whether Christians like me are going to Heaven.

GREGORY: We Orthodox make no judgment as to whether someone is going to Hell, following the Apostle Paul's injunction to not even judge ourselves (1 Corinthians 4:3-5), and to leave those outside of the Church to the judgment of the merciful God (1 Corinthians 5:12-13, Romans 11:32).

JOHN: Your view of whether someone can know if they are saved sounds too agnostic to me; it robs many faithful Christians of the assurance the Bible promises: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13)

GREGORY: Remember, this promise was made to those who were in visible communion with the Apostles (1 John 2:19), who upheld the Orthodox Faith in the Incarnation of the Son of God (1 John 4:2-3, 15), and who loved their brothers and sisters in accordance with the commandment of Christ (1 John 4:17-21). And even these members of the Church received the teaching that they must persevere in faith and love, lest they fall away from the truth (Hebrews 2:1, 6:4-8, 10:23-31, 2 Peter 2:20-22). The "assurance of salvation" you seek from outside the Orthodox Church by faith alone was unknown to the teachers taught directly by the Apostles, men like Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp of Smyrna. Nor was it confessed by the Church Fathers who passed along the truth of the Gospel--men like Irenaeus of Lyons and Cyprian of Carthage. These Saints, like the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) did not presume that they were saved, but struggled to repent continually and entrust themselves to the grace and mercy of Christ for salvation. As Irenaeus wrote, to take the kingdom of heaven by violence (Matthew 11:12) is to struggle violently against one's own sins, recognizing that the possibility of forsaking God's gift of eternal life is always present. These Fathers were the opposite of modern Evangelicals: they were not absolutely sure of their own salvation, but they knew that salvation was only possible in union with Christ in His visibly united Body, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

JOHN: So, are you saying it is possible that only those visibly within Orthodoxy will be saved?

GREGORY: By no means! Christ Himself taught that there are faithful people outside of Israel who will eat with the Patriarchs in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 8:10-12). The Apostle Peter said whoever fears God and does what is right is acceptable to Him (Acts 10:34-35), and the Apostle Paul said that, by serving God in accordance with the light of conscience, some of those without the fullness of God's revelation may be saved (Romans 2:5-16). Far be it from me to condemn all non-Orthodox Christians to Hell! Yet, if anyone will be saved, it must be by being incorporated, now or at their death, into the Orthodox Church. This is how the Patriarchs of the Old Covenant were brought to completion after they died (Hebrews 11:39-40). While the salvation of anyone on earth is not something we can know with certainty, we can surely be assured of the salvation of the Saints glorified by God, and recognized by the whole Church! And among the Orthodox Saints, there are even some who were not in full Eucharistic communion with the Orthodox Church while they were on earth, yet were connected to her by the Spirit and brought into her when they entered Heaven. I am thinking in particular of St. Constantine the Great, who was baptized on his deathbed, and St. Isaac the Syrian, who was a bishop in the Assyrian Church of the East, which is outside of canonical Orthodoxy because of her toleration of the Nestorian heresy.

JOHN: Interesting--so I suppose there is some hope that us non-Orthodox Christians can be saints.

GREGORY: Hope, yes, but you should never use these exceptions to justify remaining outside the Orthodox Church, provided you accept that her self-awareness and her other doctrines are true.

5. Inter-Communion

JOHN: I am willing to confess the same Creed as you, that is, the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, without the Filioque clause saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son. Why can't your Church welcome me to the Lord's Table while I remain a member of the Anglican Communion?

GREGORY: Open communion was not the practice of the early Church. As St. Justin Martyr reported in A.D. 150, communicants must not only be baptized Christians, but must affirm Orthodox teachings and be living as Christ commanded, repenting of all their errors. You cannot do this and remain an Anglican.

JOHN: Why not?

GREGORY: Because Anglicans traditionally have affirmed the Articles of Religion as a statement of their faith, and that confession diverges from Orthodoxy. For example, the Articles affirm the Filioque , Sola Scriptura, and (contrary to Romans 2:13 and James 2:24) justification by faith alone, and deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the invocation of Saints, and the veneration of holy icons and relics.

JOHN: Well, as far as I'm concerned, the Articles of Religion are an historical document of the Church of England, and are not necessary for the unity of Christians. Why do you think that agreement with the Orthodox opinions on these issues is necessary for you and me to share the Eucharist together?

6. The Unity of the Church

GREGORY: The Orthodox don't consider the issues I have mentioned to be non-essentials, since they include aspects of the one Faith that have been held by the Church from the beginning, such as the belief that the consecrated Eucharist is, by the invocation of the Spirit, the true Body and Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. Your distinction between essentials and non-essentials is troubling, as if there were such a thing as a non-essential truth revealed by God to the Church. The Faith delivered once for all to the Saints (Jude 3) is a seamless garment, which cannot be cut into pieces anymore than the Body of Christ can be divided (contrast John 19:23-24 with 1 Kings 11:29-36, and see Matthew 12:25, John 21:11, 1 Corinthians 1:13 and 12:12-13, and Ephesians 4:4-6). St. Cyprian of Carthage clearly taught that, while Israel of old could be divided, the one Church can't be divided, and Jaroslav Pelikan, writing as a Lutheran, noted that this ecclesiology was the Church's teaching from the beginning (The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition, p. 159), as is evident from the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch in A.D. 110.

JOHN: But there were obviously divisions within the early Church (1 Corinthians 1:10-12).

GREGORY: The divisions were among the early Christians, but these were not divisions of the one Church. Schisms and heresies do not divide the Church. Rather, if they persist, they divide people from the one Church, and show who has God's approval (see 1 Corinthians 11:18-19). Those who said they belonged to Peter or Paul or Apollos (or Luther or Calvin or Wesley), the Apostle Paul called "mere men" (1 Corinthians 3:4), and had they left the Church to form their own denomination, then the Apostle John would consider them as not belonging to the flock (1 John 2:19). You must abide in the communion of the Church in order to be committed fully to the Tradition of the Church.

7. Sola Scriptura

JOHN: I believe that Scripture contains "all things necessary for salvation." If these Orthodox doctrines on the Church and her Tradition are so important, why can't I find them in God's Word?

GREGORY: You can find them in Scripture, understood properly according to the mind of the Church, which is the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). For example, the Apostle Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, "Stand fast, brethren, to the traditions we gave you, whether by word of mouth or by our epistle." He praises the Corinthians for holding to all of the traditions he gave them (1 Corinthians 11:2), not only on the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-8) but on liturgical standards, such as women's head coverings for worship in the presence of the Angels (1 Corinthians 11:10--still upheld in traditional Orthodox churches).

8. Veneration of Relics

JOHN: And you think that this Tradition includes, not only head coverings for women (which I can accept), but superstitious things like the kissing of the Cross, and the veneration of bones of the saints?

GREGORY: The veneration of the sign of the Cross (cf. Galatians 6:14) and the relics of the Saints (cf. Acts 8:2) has been part of the Orthodox Faith from the beginning. In fact, even under the Old Covenant, the Bronze Serpent, which prefigured the Cross ( John 3:15-16), was venerated by Israel (Numbers 21:8-9), and touching the bones of Elisha raised the dead (2 Kings 13:20-21).

JOHN: It's interesting you point to these examples, since the burning of incense to the Bronze Serpent lead the righteous King Hezekiah of Judah to destroy it (2 Kings 18:4) as a pagan idol.

GREGORY: Hezekiah destroyed the Bronze Serpent only because Israel was venerating it as an image of a snake god named Nehushtan. The Church does not venerate the Cross or the relics of the Saints as gods, but rather worships and adores God alone, and honors the Cross and holy relics for God's sake.

JOHN: I don't think you see the danger of sacred relics becoming the idols of an illiterate laity.

GREGORY: If that is so, why did God command Israel to preserve a jar of manna (Exodus 16:31-34) and Aaron's rod (Leviticus 17:10-11) in the Ark of the Covenant (Hebrews 9:1-5)? Why did Israel bring Joseph's bones into the Promised Land (Genesis 50:24-25, Exodus 13:19, Joshua 24:32)?

JOHN: The Church isn't bound to imitate Israel in preserving relics, since they "are only a shadow of the things to come." (Colossians 2:17) Christ criticized the Pharisees who decorated the tombs of the Jewish martyrs (Matthew 23:29-31), and the Apostle Peter refused to be venerated (Acts 10:25-26).

GREGORY: Our Lord criticized the Pharisees for their hypocrisy, not for honoring the martyrs. If He taught otherwise, then why were the relics of Peter venerated at Rome from the beginning? Why were the relics of Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna also venerated by the Church, as is reported in a homily of St. John Chrysostom and St. Irenaeus of Lyons' account of Polycarp's martyrdom?

9. Spiritual Worship

JOHN: This wouldn't be the only instance of the disciples of the Apostles falling into error, since the Apostle Paul predicted the rise of false teachers who would contradict the Word of God (Acts 20:28-32), and the Pharisees fell into error by following the traditions of men (Matthew 15:1-9). More important than the custom of the Fathers is the teaching of Christ Himself that our worship must be spiritual, not material, since God want us to worship Him "in spirit and in truth." (John 4:23-24)

GREGORY: You misunderstand this teaching of Christ. By spiritual worship, He meant not non-material worship, but Spirit-animated worship (Ephesians 6:18). Why else would He institute the Eucharist?

JOHN: I agree Christ instituted the Eucharist as an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. But the primary thing is "feed on Him in your heart by faith with thanksgiving"-a spiritual act.

GREGORY: What about the prophecy that the Church's worship would include both incense and a pure grain offering (Malachi 1:11)? True worship involves the body as well as the soul and spirit, since God wants to sanctify the whole person (1 Thessalonians 5:23). The Apostle Paul wrote, "glorify God in your body" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). If the body doesn't matter for worship, why do you refuse to bless the union of two people of the same sex who love each other as much as a husband and wife do?

JOHN: Homosexual acts are clearly against Scripture (Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:24-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11); I don't need the Tradition of the Church Fathers to tell me that. Besides, what you Orthodox do with bowing down to icons of Christ and the saints is nearly as bad as sodomy (see Romans 1:21-23).

10. The Veneration of Icons

GREGORY: We do not bow down before the holy icons as God, but for God's sake. In this way, Jacob bowed down before Joseph's staff to honor him (Genesis 47:31 LXX, Hebrews 11:21), and the Psalmist bowed down before God's holy Temple (Psalm 5:7, 138:2), which was an icon of Heaven (Hebrews 8:5).

JOHN: But you Orthodox kiss and burn incense to images of Mary and other saints, just like the idolatrous Israelites kissed the image of Baal (1 Kings 19:18), and the wicked Judeans burned incense to "the Queen of Heaven" (Jeremiah 44:15-19). I hope you see the pagan elements in your customs.

GREGORY: You are obviously confusing the outward form of veneration with the substance of what is being honored. By your standard, we should never give each other a holy kiss of love (Romans 16:16, 1 Peter 5:14), and Daniel should never have accepted the gift of incense from King Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 2:46-48), for fear of idolatry. Scripture teaches that these gestures are acceptable, as long as we "worship the Lord our God, and severe Him only" (Matthew 4:10). Only God is due supreme worship (latria in Greek), but veneration (proskynesis or dulia) may be shown to the Saints, their relics, and icons. The word proskynesis is used in Revelation 3:9 to refer to the legitimate honor shown the Saints.

JOHN: I think you're making a distinction without a difference. Doesn't the Second Commandment forbid us from bowing down to sacred images (Exodus 20:4-6)?

GREGORY: The Second Commandment applies to false images only-we are not to make them or venerate them. The Jewish Temple was full of divinely-ordained images of the Cherubim (Exodus 26:31, 1 Kings 6:23-35), and God clearly enforced the veneration of the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:10-22, Numbers 4:15, 1 Samuel 5:1-6:21, 2 Samuel 6:6-7). By the Commandment, God forbade the making or veneration of images contrary to His self-revelation to Israel, which had involved no form (Deuteronomy 4:15-18). Obviously, the Incarnation changes things, since God the Son can be seen (John 1:14-18) and touched (1 John 1:1-3). Images of God the Father are still forbidden by the Orthodox Church.

JOHN: What about the Icon of the Holy Trinity? Isn't the Father depicted there?

GREGORY: Not literally. This icon, also called the Hospitality of Abraham, depicts the appearance of God the Logos with two angels to Abraham (Genesis 18), which was a type of the Holy Trinity.

JOHN: So you think the Apostles themselves venerated icons of Christ and the saints?

GREGORY: The taught their followers to reverently make the Sign of the Cross (Revelation 7:3), which is the icon of our Lord's Passion. The handkerchiefs that the Apostle Paul had touched and that healed the sick were no doubt venerated by the first Christians (Acts 19:11-12), who also honored Peter's shadow that healed the sick (Acts 5:14-16). What was this shadow but an image of a Saint?

JOHN: But what is the Apostolic basis for venerating painted images of Christ and the saints?

GREGORY: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, a late 2^nd Century bishop, mentions icons of Christ apparently made during the reign of Pontius Pilate (A.D. 26-36). Eusebius, the early 4^th Century historian, wrote that the faces of Christ and the Apostles Peter and Paul had been preserved in icons that he himself had examined. According to Holy Tradition, St. Luke the Evangelist was the first Christian iconographer, and other icons of Christ and the Theotokos (the Mother of God) were made during their lifetimes without human hands.

JOHN: I've read some of these ancient writers, too. What you fail to note is that Irenaeus described the veneration of the image of Jesus as a heathen custom of a Gnostic sect, and Eusebius argued that paintings of Jesus should be avoided since they could never convey the glory of the Son of God.

GREGORY: Irenaeus criticized the Gnostic sect for venerating images of pagan philosophers in addition to the icon of Christ. The Church venerates the icon of Jesus as the icon of God the Logos made flesh, which is worthy of veneration because of Whose image it is. As for Eusebius, he had heterodox views of Christ. I can quote for you many Orthodox Fathers, including Athanasius of Alexandria, Gregory of Nazianzus, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, and Gregory the Great, in support of the veneration of icons of Christ and the Saints, and the invocation of the prayers of the heavenly host above us.

11. The Invocation of Saints

JOHN: So you think the Apostles themselves invoked the prayers of the angels and saints in Heaven?

GREGORY: We know they prayed the Psalms, which call on the Angels in Heaven to join us in the worship of God (Psalm 103:20-22, 148:1-2). Jesus taught that everything done on earth is visible to those in eternity (Luke 12:2, 16:19-31), and that the Angels rejoice whenever a sinner repents (Luke 15:10). The Apostle John taught that Angels and Saints in Heaven pray for us (Revelation 5:8, 8:3-4 ), and the author of Hebrews (12:1) describes how the Saints in Heaven surround us as witnesses.

JOHN: But it is a stretch to go beyond these passages to address prayers to the saints. Both the Apostles (Acts 10:25-26, 14:8-18) and the good angels (Revelation 19:9-10, 22:8-9) rejected this sort of worship.

GREGORY: I disagree. There is no difference between asking the Angels to pray with you, as David did in the Psalms, and asking the Angels to pray for you. Since we are always to persevere in prayer ourselves (Luke 18:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:17), we should never ask an Angel or Saint to pray for us without not also joining our prayers to theirs. Of course, their prayers, since they are in Heaven, are more powerful for us than our own prayers are for ourselves (Matthew 18:10, James 5:16-18). Orthodox do not pray to Saints as we pray to God. You ask fellow believers on earth to pray for you, don't you?

JOHN: Yes, but the risk of idolatry is far less when we are dealing with fellow sinners on earth, rather than glorified saints in Heaven. Doesn't invoking saints undermine our hope in Christ as our only Mediator and Advocate with the Father (John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:4-5, 1 John 2:1)? We end up viewing Christ as an angry Judge instead of our sympathetic Redeemer (Hebrews 4:14-16). This inhibits boldness in prayer, as is reflected by the Orthodox faithful's reluctance to pray to God using their own words.

GREGORY: Christ is our only Savior and Redeemer (Acts 4:12), our only hope, and "a merciful God, who loves mankind." But this fact doesn't prevent us from interceding for each other (1 Timothy 2:1-3). Requesting the Saints in Heaven to pray for us reveals our connection to them in the Body of Christ (Ephesians 2:19, 4:16, Colossians 2:19). Asking Saints to pray does not prevent us from praying to Christ boldly ourselves, and using our own words when the Spirit so leads, as both St. John of Kronstadt and St. Theophan the Recluse recommended. Sts. Athanasius, Basil, Gregory Nazianzus, John Chrysostom, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, and Gregory the Great all practiced the invocation of the Saints in Heaven.

JOHN: But these admittedly great teachers weren't from the 1^st Century, and they weren't infallible.

GREGORY: No, but if there is a consensus among the Fathers, it must be the work of the Holy Spirit, Who never abandons the Church but rather leads her into all truth. These acts of devotion are what those who wrote the Apostles' Creed meant by the "communion of saints"; they meant the fellowship the Church has with the Saints in Heaven through commemorating their lives, imitating their virtues, venerating their relics and images, and invoking their prayers, especially those of the all-holy Theotokos (Mother of God).

JOHN: The visible Church on earth includes fallible sinners, who sometimes misunderstand the Apostolic teaching. God will not allow the elect remnant to stumble so that they can't be saved, but there's no guarantee that He'll keep them from error on the non-essentials, like devotion to Mary as Theotokos.

12. Veneration of the Virgin Mary

GREGORY: So veneration of the Mary as the ever-virgin Theotokos , practiced by the whole Church since before the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431), is non-essential? How about the prophecy, "All generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48)? How about the parallels between the description of the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 40:34 and 2 Samuel 6:6-15, and the Mother of our Lord in Luke 1:26-56?

JOHN: In the Anglican Tradition we call the Virgin Mary blessed, and we concede in our historical documents that the title Theotokos is theologically correct, although it is a non-Biblical term and can lead to Mariolatry and other abuses. As for the parallels between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant, these seem to be rather contrived, medieval speculations regarding the interpretation of Scripture.

GREGORY: That only proves that you don't read Scripture according to the mind of the Fathers. I can quote for you St. Methodius from the early 4 ^th Century, and St. Athanasius from the mid 4^th Century, invoking the Virgin Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant and the all-holy Theotokos. We know that the protection of the Theotokos was sought in prayer as early as the 3^rd Century. St. Gregory of Nazianzus, in the late 4^th Century, taught that whoever denied the Theotokos was cut off from Christ.

JOHN: There you go again, quoting these early Church Fathers like they were Scripture.

13. The Interpretation of Scripture

GREGORY: Whom do you rely to guide you in the interpretation of Scripture? Your Reformed pastor? Modern Bible scholars who often deny understandings of the Faith that the Church has held for nearly two thousand years? Or do you violate the Bible by engaging in private interpretation of Scripture (Acts 8:30-31, 2 Peter 1:19-21, 3:15-16), rejecting the authority of the leaders of Christ's Church over you (Matthew 18:15-18, 23:2, Luke 9:48, Titus 3:8-11, Hebrews 13:17, Jude 11 [cf. Numbers 16])?

JOHN: I appreciate the Church Fathers; I just don't view them as infallible. Only Scripture is infallible, and it needs to be interpreted by the Holy Spirit in order to be interpreted correctly.

GREGORY: I've already said that the Fathers are infallible only in their consensus, not as individuals. Even Popes can err, as Honorius did, for which the 6^th Ecumenical Council (A.D. 681) anathematized him as a Monothelite heretic. As for the Holy Spirit, He doesn't contradict Himself, does He? Shouldn't the doctrines of the Church be the same, regardless of what century we are in?

JOHN: The essentials should be the same, but theology is a progressive science like any other, and there can be a legitimate development of new and improved interpretations of Scripture.

GREGORY: You view Christian doctrine, not as "the Faith delivered once for all to the saints" (Jude 3), but as a merely human enterprise, like science or ever-changing technology. That, I must say, is unbiblical.

JOHN: Listen, Gregory, I accept your right to interpret Scripture according to what the Church Fathers thought. I'm not trying to impose my interpretation of Scripture on you--why are you trying to impose your interpretation of Scripture on me? Besides, the Fathers have contradicted each other in numerous places, and we need to allow the room for freedom of conscience on the non-essentials.

GREGORY: I respect your freedom of conscience, John, but that does not give you the right to define for yourself the Faith of the Church. You overstate the extent to which the Fathers contradicted each other on these matters. And how exactly do you distinguish the essentials from the non-essentials?

14. The Essentials of the Faith

JOHN: The Bible, Creed, and Gospel Sacraments are the essentials. All else is non-essential.

GREGORY: What about professing Christians who approve of abortion? Should reverence for human life be required of those who are received into full, Eucharistic communion with the Church?

JOHN: Yes, of course. But the sanctity of human life can be proven from Scripture.

GREGORY: Proven by whom? Surely you know of professing Christians who claim to be faithful to the Scriptures, yet who reject the Church's traditional teaching against abortion.

JOHN: Suppose I concede your point--I don't see what you're getting at.

GREGORY: My point is that if you are going to insist on adherence to traditional interpretations of Scripture regarding morality, why are you so upset with the Orthodox Church for her supposed "arrogance" in insisting on traditional interpretations with regard to the unity of the Church, fellowship with the Saints, and requirements for participating in the Eucharist?

JOHN: Because these standards exclude born-again Christians from the Lord's Table, that's why!

GREGORY: That's precisely the argument that some self-described Evangelicals make as to why the Church should leave issues like abortion up to individual conscience, and invite to communion all those who "love the Lord and are eligible to receive communion in their home church" (which is nowhere at all for many "church-shoppers"). Repentance from serious sins like those that the Apostle Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21--not just murder and sexual sins, but sins against the unity and Faith of the Church--usually isn't even mentioned at Protestant observances of the Lord's Supper.

15. Confession of Sins

JOHN: But we Anglicans always have a general confession of sin before we receive Communion.

GREGORY: What is needed is not just a confession of sin, but a confession of sins to a presbyter of the Church. "Confess your sins to one another so that you may be healed." (James 5:16)

JOHN: I've always been taught that it's enough to confess to God and to the person offended.

GREGORY: What about sins against the legitimate leaders of the Church, who keep watch over our souls and will give an account (Hebrews 13:17)? Isn't it possible that, by following a particular pattern of life or accepting a false doctrine, I may have offended the Body of Christ in a serious enough way that I would be deserving of the rebuke of Church authorities?  If so, shouldn't I go to an elder of the Church and seek forgiveness (Matthew 18:15-18, John 20:21-23)?

JOHN: This seems to be a terrible violation of my conscience to require me to confess in this way.

GREGORY: You obviously have problems with the concept of spiritual fatherhood (1 Corinthians 4:14-15). Does not a father have the right, indeed the obligation, to discuss with each of his children what they have done during the day, to praise them for acting appropriately and discipline them for their disobedience? Is this not the act of a loving father or mother, to encourage a child to walk in the right paths (Hebrews 12:7-11)? Is not loving discipline a mark of the true Church, recognized by the early Reformed theologians, that most Protestant congregations neglect today?

16. Corruption in the Church

JOHN: Well, I'm not sure I trust the Orthodox Church to exercise discipline over me. First, it seems like there are a lot of Orthodox people, like the ethnic cleansers in Serbia and opponents of religious freedom in Russia, who should be disciplined but are actually supported by a corrupt church hierarchy. Second, it seems like Orthodoxy doesn't even recognize me as a full member of the Church.

GREGORY: First of all, the Orthodox Church opposes ethnic cleansing and supports freedom of conscience on religion, but there have always been Orthodox leaders who have been less vigilant in speaking out for justice than they should. Orthodox Saints like St. Nilus of Sora, in contrast, were bold in speaking out against hatred and violence directed at ethnic and religious minorities. As far as your own status is concerned, because you have been baptized, you are a child of the Church, yet you are estranged from her by remaining apart from her communion. Perhaps you were ignorant in the past of the Church's motherhood over you, but once you become aware of it, you store up a greater reprimand for yourself by remaining apart from her knowingly than by remaining apart from her in ignorance (Luke 12:47-48).

JOHN: But certainly you agree that there are great sinners in the Orthodox Church who violate the basic teaching of Scripture, and who should be disciplined but are not being corrected..

GREGORY: It's odd that you, a member of a communion with few standards of discipline, should criticize the Orthodox Church for her supposed lack of discipline. If you're going to argue that the Orthodox Church isn't authentic because she isn't sufficiently strict with the sinners in her midst, then you should really belong to a hyper-rigorous schismatical body like the Novatianists or Donatists--not the hyper-inclusive Anglican Communion.  But if you agree that the power to bind and to loose belongs to the leaders of the Church, and not to yourself, then you would not usurp those leaders as Korah sought to usurp Moses and Aaron (Numbers 16, cf. Jude 11, Matthew 23:2-3).   Certainly the priests and bishops of the Church are responsible to bind and to loose wisely, applying Scripture and the canons to build up the flock for salvation (2 Corinthians 13:10), and not being either too lax (Jude 4, Revelation 2:20-23) or too strict (Matthew 23:4). If pastors fail to do this, they will have to answer to the Lord for allowing Satan to lead their flocks astray (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:11).

17. Ecclesiastical Customs

JOHN: I just think that legalistic Orthodox leaders make too big a deal about customs like the Filioque clause in the Creed, and rules on fasting, praying facing East, and no kneeling on Sundays.

GREGORY: Tell me, John, do you accept the teachings of the first four Ecumenical Councils?

JOHN: Like the Reformers, I accept the Councils of Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon.

GREGORY: Well, it was Nicea that confirmed the ancient tradition (described by Tertullian about A.D. 200) of standing in prayer on Sundays, and between Pascha and Pentecost. The customs of biweekly and Lenten fasts, and prayer facing East, were so ancient and universal that it wasn't necessary for an Ecumenical Council to confirm them. The Council of Chalcedon insisted that anyone who confessed a different Creed, and did not preserve the Creed inviolate, should be excommunicated. That's why the Pope excommunicated himself and the entire Western Church when he added the Filioque to the Creed, confusing the divine essence and energies, and overruling the judgment of Popes Leo III and John VIII.

JOHN: Do you concede the possibility that you're too eager to excommunicate people for some suspected heresy or liturgical deviation (like making the Sign of the Cross the wrong way), and not interested enough in doing the things that Christ has clearly commanded us to do, like sharing the Gospel with unbelievers, feeding the hungry, and being united with other Christians?

GREGORY: The Church has never ceased to confess that her teaching is unchanging and for all people. According to this teaching, which Orthodox Christian missionaries are taking throughout the world today, when we serve the poor, we serve God the Son Himself. As far as liturgical customs are concerned, there is a legitimate variety in the Church, as the existence of Western Rite Orthodoxy indicates.

18. The Work of the Spirit

JOHN: Western Rite Orthodoxy notwithstanding, it seems to me that you risk sinning against the Spirit (Mark 3:28-30) by failing to appreciate His work in Western Christendom over the past thousand years.

GREGORY: Of course the loving God is at work among the non-Orthodox. There is much that is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, excellent, and worthy of praise in the Western churches and confessions (Philippians 4:8), and all of these good things come from the Father of lights (James 1:17). But do you appreciate how the Spirit is leading Western Christians to rediscover the Orthodox Church of the East? Had the Church of Rome remained Orthodox, the Great Schism would not have happened. The Reformation would not have been necessary, for the Scriptures and the Liturgy would have been expressed in the vernacular tongues of Europe, married men would have been priests, the Cup would not have been withdrawn from the laity, and novel doctrines on indulgences and a "treasury of merits" would not have been taught in the churches. Don't you see the work of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of both Roman Catholics and knowledgeable Protestants of every denomination to Orthodox Christianity?

JOHN: "Knowledge puffs up, but loves builds up." (1 Corinthians 8:1) Christ said our love for each other would show that we are His disciples (John 13:35). The Orthodox seem to be lacking this love, both towards each other and towards Western Christians. How do you explain the fact that the typical Orthodox appears much more ignorant of basic Christianity than does the typical Evangelical?

GREGORY: While Western Christianity is not free of the faults you identify among the Orthodox, I concede that many Orthodox are woefully ignorant of the truths of the Faith. Too often we are lacking in the love of Christ, both for each other and for our "separated brethren." But this doesn't mean that the Orthodox Church is not the true Church. As Christ Himself taught, the Church is like a net that catches both good and bad fish, which will only be sorted from each other on the Day of Judgment, when the saints in the Church will be saved, but the unrepentant sinners will be cast into Hell (Matthew 13:47-50). This net is never broken, which indicates the Church's fundamental unity (John 21:11). While I confess the many failures of Orthodox Christians, I bear witness that the Orthodox Church herself, in all that she says and does as a whole, has, by God's unmerited grace, a fullness, a unity, and a continuity that Protestant congregations lack. Committed Evangelical Protestants often have an admirable zeal for the Lord, a zeal that puts most Orthodox Christians to shame. But this zeal is not always according to knowledge (Romans 10:2). By becoming Orthodox, Evangelical Protestants and other seekers of God can exercise zeal in accordance with knowledge, serving and bearing witness to Christ our Lord in the Church that He established and that He sustains in the truth by His all-holy and life-giving Spirit.

- Jon Jacobson , 18 June 2002