Afternoon Session, presented by Fr. Bob Hogan, S.M. and Obie Nicolini of the Incarnate Word Community in Dayton.

Q: A lady in our prayer group has a prophecy for nearly everybody. She’ll say, “I’ve written down a prophecy for you.” Do you think this is really from God?

A (Fr. Bob): There may be an influence from the Marian movement where people are writing down inner messages. God can do that. But most of what God says is to me. He wants me to hear something that will change my life. If we think God is always giving us something for someone else, but not for us, we’re probably not hearing God. God knows we need to be changed first. We need to take the plank out of our own eye before we take any specks out of anyone else’s eye. We need to be very humble about this.

Some people do have specific insights. But we must still present the insight in a way that will be fruitful. Unless we know the person very well, it is best not to give a direct message. Even if we are absolutely sure it is from the LORD, it is better to pray, “LORD, if this is meant to be shared, give me the opportunity.” Then share it if He gives the opportunity. Alternately, simply suggest to the person, “Did you ever think about it this way?” and give the gist of what it’s about to them and see if it strikes home.

Usually the people who give these kinds of messages give you the message and then you never see them again, so there’s no opportunity to discern it in the Body of Christ. We need to be careful with any prophecy that’s not somehow tied in to the wider Body of Christ to be discerned. Would this person be willing to sit down with me and with some other people to see what the LORD God is saying to me? If they are not willing to do this, it makes their prophecy very questionable. If the person just approaches you and says, “I’m an empty vessel that does God’s work and here’s God’s message for you” and then leaves—that’s a misunderstanding of how God works. We’ve got to be careful.

When someone does give us a message like this, don’t just dismiss it outright. It is better to pray, “LORD, I look at this, I take it in, I put it into the storeroom of my mind and heart. If it is something that is meant for me, I trust that you will bring it back.” Whether through other circumstances or events, or through our prayer time, God will confirm the things that are meant for us and make them lasting. We put it in that storage room and if the Spirit wants to use it, He will bring it back. We need to trust that He will bring it back at just the right time.

We in the Charismatic movement need to be careful of giving prophecy to others. We get a bad name when we have people running around giving messages to their pastor, their priest, etc., about everything. Then we wonder why they’re not open to the Charismatic renewal!

Remember: we have to deal with people first, message second. The message is essential, but God loves people first. We need to have an involvement with people. Within that involvement, God will sometimes speak to us for each other to build each other up, to help each other. In this context we want to be open. For example, during a Life in the Spirit seminar people on the team will come up and report what they believe the LORD is saying. I just try to take it in and, sure enough, frequently it comes back at just the right moment. This was something I needed to hear, I needed to know and because they shared it with me, the Holy Spirit showed me the right time and the right way to use it. So, don’t quickly dismiss everything, but put it in the storeroom and ask, “LORD, if it’s meant to be, I trust you’ll bring it back.” And if the message is something really specific, get more people involved to discern it.

Q: [inaudible]

A (Obie): In that kind of prophecy, ask “What is the connection of the person who gives it to the people?” Is there some form of commitment, some form of responsibility? Is this person teachable? Are they connected somewhere? Are they flighty, that is running from one prayer group to another? Sometimes it is just a misunderstanding of the role of prophecy. If they’re not grounded somewhere where they can get the kind of teaching or correction they need, they may mean well, and in fact may be getting something from the LORD, but the effect is not usually good. If we have responsibility for the group, we need to do whatever is necessary; to talk to this person, to find out what we can, to help them get connected, etc.

Q: I left a prayer group because there was so much emphasis on miracles, the Blessed Mother, the Blessed Sacrament, the Rosary, etc. and not much time for praising Jesus. How does Mary fit into a charismatic prayer meeting?

A (Fr. Bob): I can’t do this justice here since my doctoral dissertation is on Mary and the Charismatic Renewal and I can give you 600 pages worth. I love the Rosary! In the leaders meeting before the Renewal in the Spirit Seminars, we pray the Rosary and then we go into a time of worship. Mary is our companion. She opens us to the grace of the Holy Spirit. Mary was the first person to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. So Mary is companion who helps us enter into praise. Her Magnificat is a prophetic praise prayer! So, we need to enter in to the spirit of Mary in praying, but our focus is not mainly talking about Marian apparitions or events. Mary helps us to be receptive to the Holy Spirit. She was among the 120 at Pentecost. Mary is a woman of praise, filled with glory! “My soul proclaims the greatness of the LORD. My spirit rejoices in God my Savior. . . . ” We need to re-teach praise, and one way that can help some Marian people is to understand Mary’s praise.

For a change of pace you might want to devote part of a prayer meeting, from time to time, to a different kind of prayer. Begin with a time of worship as usual, and then perhaps have a more meditative kind of prayer, for example, the Rosary. But the major focus of what we are about is entering into worship. Mary can help us enter in to that. Charismatics have a tendency to want the instant inspiration, which sometimes can be superficial. Be honest about it! We need to have a real life of prayer. In our personal prayer we need to worship so that God brings us into anointed quiet. Then when we read Scripture, it really moves us. Or we can just be in a more contemplative presence of the LORD. We need both contemplative prayer and prayer of praise. They work hand in hand. In that contemplative presence, the LORD can give us deeper insight. He can immerse us in His love. Praise opens us up, prepares us for good quality contemplation. Sometimes we need to teach our people that each kind of prayer has its place.

I love the Rosary. I say it every day. I believe that by treasuring each of the Mysteries, I’m constantly letting the main themes of the Christian life sink into me. Many of the inspirations I have their source in the Rosary. It’s powerful! But we need to help people understand the role of worship, which is the focus of what we’re doing in a charismatic prayer meeting. This we need to make sure we keep clear.

Q: I can get so caught up in spiritual books that I neglect the Scriptures. Then I wonder what is the right balance. Tell us exactly what you read!

A (Fr. Bob): [Laughter]. I have to do a lot of reading because I’m a theologian and I have to keep up with things. But some things move me and change me more. Some particular book or thing I’m reading may strike me. It hits me and I keep going back to it. I read it two or three times. I underline it and I mark it. I spend time and prayer with certain sections. For me, much of what I teach comes from the book called The Life Changer (published by Servant Publications) by Fr. Francis Martin, who is a priest in the Charismatic Renewal and a Scripture scholar. There’s also a new book on the Holy Spirit by Alan Schreck called Hearts Aflame. Excellent! It talks about the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church and the charismatic movement. It just came out from Servant Books. Alan Schreck is from the University of Steubenville. He was one of my teachers. He has an earlier book called Catholic and Christian which is the best book I know explaining Catholic background in an understandable way. I also like a couple of other authors you wouldn’t know as well, since they’re non-Catholic. Richard J. Foster is a charismatic Quaker whose books on prayer and spirituality are just wonderful. I have certain people I just keep going back to. I say, “LORD, sink this into me!” When we evaluate our spiritual reading, it’s not just quantity. What has become part of us? Again, I like the image of the storehouse. We’ve reflected and meditated on it so much that it’s stored up in us and the Holy Spirit then can use it whenever He wants.

Q: Do we have to limit ourselves to Catholic books in a Life in the Spirit Seminar, etc.?

A (Fr. Bob): Again, you’ve got to use prudence. It depends on the audience you’re dealing with. It depends on the situation. It depends on good order with your pastor. If your pastor doesn’t want anything but Catholic material, then don’t use anything but Catholic material. You may still take inspiration and ideas from other books and use them. My own approach, which is the wider Catholic teaching, is that we believe in an ecumenical Church. We see gifts in others and should be able to use them. The Vatican has dialogue with other churches, and they read other people’s books. We should learn from them. I’ve been blessed by other people’s books. I’ve been blessed by Richard Foster, this charismatic Quaker; Dr. Larry Crabb is a Christian psychologist that I also like very much and I use his ideas a great deal. In situations where it won’t present a problem, I explain these things. In other situations I may still use their ideas, but translate them a little more into a Catholic context.

On the one hand, we need to encourage positive, Vatican II understanding of Catholicism, that we can learn from Christians of other denominations, but on the other hand we have to be aware that there are books, sometimes Pentecostal books in the past, that did some things that weren’t consistent with Catholic understanding and led to some confusion. We have to be careful. There may be some wonderful stuff, but some of it we cannot use the way they would.

For example, at the last meeting (September 17, 1995 at St. Ignatius Church in Cincinnati) I said, “I do not like using the word ‘spirit-filled.’” As in, “I am a spirit-filled Christian.” It’s very common among Pentecostals. I think it leads to two problems:

1) It can make you feel like you’ve already got it all; you’re wrong if you do! But the Spirit can have touched certain areas of your life and other areas are totally under the control of the flesh. That’s why Paul is writing all these people about the flesh and the spirit. These are all baptized-in-the-Holy-Spirit people, friends! These are people so-called “filled with the Holy Spirit,” but whole areas of their lives haven’t been transformed yet because they haven’t submitted those areas to the Holy Spirit;

2) “spirit-filled” can impede a true understanding of the Holy Spirit. As Catholics we believe that in Baptism everyone receives the Holy Spirit. God gives fully. We may not have received fully. That’s what baptism in the Holy Spirit is about—preparing you to receive more fully God’s gift that He has already imparted through the sacraments. We need to realize that Jesus loves us before we love Him! Jesus chooses us before we chose Him! I have no problem baptizing little children into the household of the faith. God is telling them, “I love you before you love Me! I choose you before you choose Me!” But at some point, you need to personally appropriate that through faith and hope and love so it becomes alive for you. But God has given all that He wants to give in the sacrament. God is never incomplete in giving what He wants to give. We are incomplete in receiving. That’s the Catholic understanding of this. That’s why you need that Fanning the Flame document. Read that to understand it in a Catholic context, which is much better.

I think Pentecostals would do much better if they stopped using the word “spirit-filled,” too, not just the Catholics. It sets up a dichotomy—what is it saying about the person who is not “spirit-filled”? But the word is trying to say something. It is saying, “I have had an experience of the Holy Spirit helping me know Jesus in a deeper way.” We need to be able to say that—to not deny the experience—to not deny the importance of it. But not to act as if the Holy Spirit. . . . I know that the Holy Spirit was working in me as a little kid. I got up early every day and went to daily Mass from the second grade to the seventh grade because I knew “that’s Jesus Christ there.” I wouldn’t have known that except by the Holy Spirit. However, my senior year in high school, I also gave my life more personally to Jesus and experienced the Scriptures becoming alive, experienced Jesus present right there with me and had a new ability to pray and a desire to serve that freed me in a new way. But that experience is not an end in itself. The Holy Spirit wants to be poured out on you in a continual way. We need to continue to ask for those gifts. So, yes, we need to be open and learn from all the faiths. Be careful that you try to understand what might not be consistent. You’re going to run into problems because some priests just really don’t know what the Catholic Church says about the Holy Spirit. But you’ve got to be prudent and loving with that situation.