Mitakuye Oyasin,

Osiyo. Very cool posts, responses and group, thanx! I hope you and yours are well and will continue to be. I've been an advocate/activist on all issues, et al, for 31 years of my 46; please, do what you can for humanity. Dylan Thomas' poem line comes to mind, "...and death (murder) shall have no dominion..."; as others might say, "we, the people...", can make it so! Jim and Demi, before I get into responding to you, here's some observations about the current events and there sad relation to current politics; to the detriment of peace. The dempublicans recent shows of how they're supposedly "really" struggling with the GOP, and supposedly "being the answer to what ails us", like the AIDS Summit of a former usa emperor, which said and suggested that, "the end of AIDS could be seen on the horizon", a projection that was supposed to rally hope in the dempublicans plans, and the corporate structure, as well as the future, especially within the evolutionarily struggling ethnic peoples of this country, was a sad lie in many ways.  Yes, positivism and optimism are fine, yet, in reality they're pessimism behind a self manufactured and adorned mask; as an inability to deal honestly and squarely with reality leads many to project that reality is better than it actually is, to delude themselves- while their delusions predominantly, especially in the long-term, actually determine that they're desired and projected goals can not be realized, as they refused to deal with them as they actually are in the present, and continuously, etc.. So, that one projection that the "end of AIDS could be seen", is really a p.r. tool of the dempublicans, yet, if it isn't 'used' to determine that the end of AIDS doesn't happen, by deluding those who believe in it, then its results will be innocuous, in terms of negative effects on ending AIDS; which is part of my struggle on all the issues related to AIDS, and a hope.

Yet, it can have the opposite effect, people doing less, not doing what they can, not keeping AIDS in an accurate perspective, as a manmade disease manufactured and allowed to flourish aimed at being sociologically detrimental to predominantly ethnic, non-remocratic, and middle-class to poor demographics, etc., globally, who, predominantly vote dempublican, third party, or democratic to progressive, etc.. As well, the p.r. job the dempublicans are hoping it will provide them, as a, supposedly, legitimizing factor, is outrageous, yet, typical of them. Just 2 points, "seeing the end of AIDS", isn't hard in this world today, as the extinction of humanity and large mammals is on the horizon, racing towards us at an ever increasing rate, from our current future, based on humanities' current path; as, if we're extinct, AIDS is ended- yet, does this piece of info. really value anyone in our struggle with AIDS? This is an atypical example of the dempublicans liberal 'use' of half-truths, whereas, remocrats pathologically lie; yet, still an example, as the more important half of the truth is left out by them. For, if we don't stop the extinction of humanity, which is not only able to be seen on the horizon, as we all see it in the man-made unnatural disasters that are happening daily, now, some of them purposely not prevented, like their purposely not reinforcing the levees in New Orleans, which they project are "natural", we, certainly won't, actually, stop AIDS. So, it, actually, is an extremely savvy way for the dempublicans to misdirect the people's attention away from the fact that they're remocrat collaborators in all that ails the usa and the world, in a year of Congressional midterm elections, in which third parties should be picking up ground on the dempublicans, specifically because of the dempublicans being collaborators with the criminally insane and treasonous remocrats; that being said, there has been, and hopefully will be more, great strides in our Struggle with AIDS, etc..

While, the remocrats, as usual, are the worse offenders in the race to askew, and skewer all issues to their hoped for political advantage, which they dictate will turn into their continuing to dominate and direct all of Congress, as they have for over a decade; after the midterm elections. Yet, some things can't even be spun, so, regardless of the remocrats double to quadruplespeak, pathological lying, revisionist accounts of history, continual non-disclosure, etc., "we,...", will, hopefully, see the truths abounding before our very eyes, and vote for the vote by voting; as well as vote with our conscious and hopes, and not our fears, etc.. For, it was their manufactured fear that allowed the remocrats manufactured false intelligence to get dempublicans to vote with their fears, when they voted to allow empress georgie, "the power to war on Iraq"; and, as everyone knows by now, it was not only unjust, unnecessary war, and continuing occupation, it was the one thing that made it impossible for the usa to actually have a chance in their supposed "war on terror"; which, in actuality, is just their and the other polar axises of powers way to stop another, rising axis of power, Islam, from gaining as much, as quickly- while astronomically dividing the world with the polarizing forces of "unending war", and now, "unending religious war", same as they did during the cold war, between the totalitarians and the capitalists. The worlds taxpayers paying the astronomically increased corporate welfare to the world's controlling authoritarian regimes industrial complexes that are astronomically more necessary during war, as well as paying for astronomically more fuel, etc.- leading to humanities extinction coming exponentially quicker. So, with everyone knowing the usa has lost the war in Iraq, and, probably, Afghanistan, it just being a matter of how long the processes will take, how many more 100,000's murdered, trillions spent, and millions maimed and abused, the remocrats are finding it very hard to get the next war, ball, in the air; against Iran. Also, they'll find it even harder, now that Iran has agreed to let France enrich their uranium, so, they can have nuclear power, without the remocrats being able to suggest they're even interested in nuclear weapons.

Though, since, as most usa citizens don't know, they had no intention on winning either war, just starting them, that may not be too big a stumbling block for the remocrat global engineers; although, we hope and struggle towards the fact that it is. Some might ask why they didn't even plan a strategy that would even have a possibility of winning either war, especially since there was no reason to rush into a war with Afghanistan (almost no technological warfare capability), or mitigate that war's potential ability to be won by rushing into the next war with Iraq (mitigated technological warfare capability by earlier usa war with it, and the sanctions, UN inspections, etc.)? It's an aspect of the Vietnam syndrome, the remocrat conspiracy knows that if they lose a major war, they won't be able to get the usa populace to be willing to allow another major war for awhile, yet, if they start a war, and can keep the people from knowing they're losing it, they can start another, as they did in Iraq, without winning the first, for they haven't lost the first, yet. As well, if they get the third started (third ball in the air), as they have been trying to do with Iran for years, for, they haven't lost the first 2 yet, they can, regardless of whether they have a plan to win it, have adequately prepared for it, or not, etc., because the populace of the usa is so "snowed" over that they won't know what the remocrat scam is that is being played on them, and the fact that they not only don't have to allow it, but, actually, have a responsibility to stop it. So, the remocrat conspiracy just has to manufacture enough evidence, to manufacture enough perceptions in enough people, to manufacture enough consent to start it's third failed war, to get the third ball in the air, so that the realization of the supposed necessity for "unending war" will, possibly, be forced by the amount of atrocities the us military has been instructed to do, and the losses emboldening all the supposed terrorists and supposed rogues states these 3 wars have realized. That way, the remocrat conspiracy will dictate a state of "unending war", manufacturing the centralization of astronomically increased corporate welfare to all, predominantly, remocratic industrial complexes: military, defense, intelligence, homeland security, police and prison, as well as the astronomically increased use of oil, and our astronomically increased dependence on fossil fuels, etc..

To say they deem their plan 'perfect' would be an understatement, as they deem there is little possibility of the usa avoiding it. Yet, the dempublicans explaining the "smoking guns" that have continually come to light, as to the remocrat conspiracies elite purposely not preventing the 9-11 attacks, have brought the invincibility of their "unending war" plans, as well as their inevitability, into question. For example, the bringing to light of the meeting between the top CIA, etc., with Ms. Rice, etc., a month before 9-11-01, in which they told her that there was substantial evidence that Bin Laden was going to attack the us, by flying planes into buildings, etc., and she dismissed it and them; with no follow up, whatsoever- and the fact that this meeting wasn't made public, or even related to the pertinent Congressional leadership, by the 9-11 Commission, etc.. As well, Bob Woodward's book, "A State of Denial", has many more such revelations, etc.. Now that Midterm election remocratic winning potential has been mitigated by these, and many other, truths coming out more prominently, the remocratic conspiracy needed more 'fixes', or 'locks' to determine the usa populace would be so scared that they would continue to vote remocratic. Ergo, the Lebanese war by Israel, trying to solidify the remocratic projection that an "unending religious war" with Islam is an inevitability, also, the Pope's inciting Islamists by reading a 1400's perception by a Roman Catholic leader of that time, erroneously and stereotypically labeling Islam, trying to get Islamists to over react. Yet, those 2 global acts haven't swayed polls enough in the remocrats favor, in their opinion, so, the remocrats came up with the tried and true plan of terrorizing the usa populace by instigating, ordering, or otherwise directing the last weeks 3 separate incidences of premeditated mass-murderings of schoolchildren, in their schools; as they did with the Columbine shootings, etc..

For, as I informed everyone going on a decade ago, the Columbine shooters were kids who were trained and motivated by the remocratic led psychic terrorism, "the suck", and there is clear evidence that some of these current shooters were also directed, etc., by the same, the remocrats terrorizing the usa population into swinging conservative, if not voting remocratic, then dempublican; at least not third party, in their hopes, in the coming midterm Congressional elections, and next years imperial election. As well empress georgies' speechifying the populace effects is waning, that attempt at soft brainwashing of the people is also losing its desired effects. The latest shooter, 32 year old Mr. Roberts, wife, supposedly suggests that "he did it due to a 20 year old grudge", b.s., how could he have a 20 year old grudge against little Amish girls; that's absurd. Not to mention the fact that these 3 shooting acts in the last week have redirected the mass-media away from the other stories that are prominent in the news, on Iraq's civil war heightening, Afghanistan settling into its actuality of being an emerging narco-state, more evidence that the remocrat conspiracies elite's not preventing the 9-11 attacks on purpose, another remocratic national leader, Foley, being a pedophile coming to light, etc.. There is enumerable pieces of evidence to that effect, yet, I'll just talk about one, for now. A high ranking leader of the remocratic Congressional leadership, Mr. Foley, who has been a practicing pedophile for years, whose actions came to light most directly last week, when many if his instant messages to a 16 year old boy, a page in the House, of a lurid and predatory nature, as well as more tame emails, were made public, has quit his position and entered rehab; supposedly, just for alcoholism. Yet, Mr. Reynolds, another high ranking remocrat Congressional leader, says he told Mr. Hastert, the remocratic Congressional leader, last year about the situation, and Mr. Hastert says he didn't; yet, it's well known that this situation with Mr. Foley was investigated and covered up over a year ago, and these same remocratic leaders who are feinting outrage at Foley, and ignorance of the situation, participated in that same cover-up for years. Let them, your representatives and the people know that Mr. Hastert, and all remocrats involved in the cover-up, should resign; and there should be a complete and exhaustive independent investigation, as the Congress can't be allowed to investigate itself- for, we know, if they're allowed to, they'll just make their cover-up more foolproof. The remocratic program of "leaving no child's behind alone" program, as opposed to what they call it, "the leave no child behind" program, must be changed, for many reasons. Don't forget, a high ranking remocratic leader of Homeland Security was arrested only months ago for pedophiling, as well; it has to stop!

Phone, write, email your representatives, et al :) http://www.fcnl.org , http://www.congress.org

Jim Bryant, my replies follow your atrocious attempt at a tiff :)

JB: "Although you have some good points buried in what for the sake of politeness I will call prose (by the time I got four paragraphs in I was asking myself if you were nuts... I think I got my answer at the bottom), I have one suggestion, and one statement of fact for you."

Using the word "nuts" in relation to anyone's thoughts proves you're closer to that projection than anyone you are projecting it about; as, it is a derogatory labeling, we, in the field of mental health (as my profession is a mental health counseling supervisor, with accreditation, decades of experience, it was my college major, etc.) call negative sociological stereotyping, in a word stigmatizing; which is universally understood to be mental health's equivalent of racial discrimination- so, you and everyone else are clear on what you are.

JB: "1). Call the doc, and please say "UP THE MEDS!"."

More negative sociological stereotyping, and stigmatizing; as you're getting increasingly abusive. Your suggesting I'm seeing, or needing to see, a psychiatrist, in relation to your previous supposed assessing lable, "nuts", is the height of negative sociological stereotyping of any and all who partake in any and all forms of psychological interventions, which includes most forms of behavioristic interventions, as well; most, if not all of which are not only accepted forms of self: knowledge, insight, discernment of affect, improvement, growth, maturation, healing, et al, they're the nexus of humanities' evolutionary growth in these areas- which means your derogatory comment is, again, a mental health equivalent to racism. As well, as the use of chemotherapy, which laymen like you would know as pharmaceutical intervention (psychotropics, neuroleptics, mood elevators and stabilizers, etc.), is the medical models intervention of choice, sadly, and thought of as imperialistically patriarchal, and the preferred intervention of medical demogogues, most psychiatrists, tragically- supposed Doctors, in layman's terms. So, for you to use their poison of choice, which they use to destroy and control the populace for the gov't, corporate structure and uber greed and avarice sakes, means you're supporting the abuse of the populace by those patriarchal, predominantly remocratic, oppressive forces; and directly attacking me, hoping to get me to be so abused by them, also- again, detailing exactly who you are, as opposed to who you fabricate you are.

JB: "2). Christianity isn't the problem. Religion is the problem. Islam is no less a piece of shit than Christianity is, or any other. All spread hatred, fear, and war. The sole purpose of religion is to control a population. When religion gets extremist, it has to turn to external enemies, otherwise it will self destruct it's own culture. We see this with all of the world's major religions, especially the Judaeo-based religions (the most offensive and bloodthisty bastards in the world, all three branches. Four of you count those Satanist bastards)."

Your saying, "Religion is the problem.", is equivalent to those who say a gun is the problem, supposedly purporting that: people aren't the responsible party; and all we have to do is do away with everything you find disagreeable, and with the wave of your dictatorial hand, all problems (as you project the way they are, and that they are) would cease to exist; etc.- fascist and totalitarian supposed truth, all in one, though, actually, just abusive false logic. Yet, it's actually far more derogatory than that, as you're projecting that all those who study religion, about 90 % of the world's population (and that percentage is growing), aren't just wrong, but, rather, they are "the problem"; as those studies they would choose to use to define who they are. This is imperialist, patriarchal, ethnocentric, classist, etc., all in one; again, obviously communicating who you are, as opposed to who you suppose you are. Yet, not only are you ethnocentric, racist, imperialist, and patriarchal, you're also a religious bigot, as secularism, gnosis, agnosticism, atheism, socialism, communism, or whatever you would fabricate you are, is also a religion as it is predominantly practiced, especially as you're a supposed secularist, and your actual religion is greed, as all other supposed religious, etc., practitioners are actually practitioners of greed and avarice, while they use their supposed studies as a front to hide their actual deeds, thoughts, etc., behind, as well; though, it also indicates you didn't even read my post! Yet, your crimes are far worse, for, you equate religions with "shit", which is also racist, as well as the extreme of bigotry, classism, etc.; as, it's proven that most non-religious people are Westernized, if not from Western societies, and cuacasian, as well as upper-middle class to rich. Hardly, even slightly, a peaceful perspective, as this groups direction is "peace and politics", although, your perspective is extremely divisive- like the remocrats! Though, that's not all of it, as you insist on proving your ignorance of the diversity of the world's religions, spiritualities, cosmologies, et al, as well as the actuality and potential of their practitioners (which has been 95 % of all humanity from its beginnings) and their studies of the same; as you equate "all religions with shit". Yet, your crimes only grow, as you project vicious lies, saying they, "All spread hatred, fear, and war."; which just about everyone knows isn't true- yet, a student of 2 dozen religions, and comparative religion, etc., like myself, knows is the height of lie, and hateful propaganda- again, no peace in your crimes whatsoever. You even call people "bastards", as a supposed political argument, in support of your agregious attacks!

JB: "{In fact, if all of this turns into a true "Holy War", I would be the first to call on all of the people of the world to burn down ALL churches, synagagues, and mosques, and if it doesn't stop then, to declare a shooting war on religion in the name of sanity."

You're suggesting that calling on 10 % of the world's populace to destroy places of all religious worship, by 90 % of the population of the earth, shows your combination of fascist/totalitarianism, like remocrats, for what it is- yet, you're also delusional, as 10 % could never abuse 90 % so outrageously! Yet, you go even farther, you would commit and propagate genocide against students of all religions, in order to make something you decide, and define as a state of "working"; that's outright hitlerian of you- genocide of almost all by a small minority.

JB: "They'd just as soon shoot us." Jim Bryant"

Then you fabricate a supposed justification for your hitlerian genocidal conclusions with the projection that "they would do the same", I suggest your projecting I was in need of a psychiatrist is what is known in the mental health field as a Freudian slip; as you seem to be talking about yourself, instead, although, that wasn't your intention.

Et tu, Demi Miller :)

DM: "I would like to amend Jim's comment:

"Religion is not the problem. Authoritarian religion is the problem.""

While, not as derogatory, imperialist, patriarchal, ethnocentric, and classist, it is still, somewhat. Again, what you define as authoritarian is the matter, and where is there not what you would define as such, ergo, you're using a differing yardstick for differing religions, and non-religions; bigotry.

DM: "[And one of the more extreme forms of authoritarian religion is fundamentalism, which elevates a set of words/scripture to the level of "the Will of God" - and the special (often self-appointed) interpreters of those words as the temporal "Voice of God." Authoritarian religion emphasizes rigid doctrine, hierarchial models of church authority, control of dissent, and the use of force ("just wars") to achieve religious ends.]"

Just like the non-religion mirror image, totalitarianism; which, since you conveniently leave out, indicates your discriminatory view against religion- informing us more on your bigoted thread throughout your false logic. For e.g., you critique "religious ends", yet, don't critique secularists "means to an end"; which is readily discernable as just as specious logic as the religious form of it, if not more so, as their means and ends usually become centralization of delusional profits and delusional pleasures in ever increasingly cyclical patterns- uber greed and avarice (which perpetuates itself like authoritarian religions, etc.).

DM: "While that describes some religious sects (across the board - Christian, Jewish, Islam, Hindu, - even Buddhist) it does not refer to all or even most of the practices undertaken by most of the Faithful. The majority of people seek out religious communities for the simple reason that they recognize a need for a community that affirms values (not doctrines or dogmas) that run deeper than the shallow materialism that characterizes our current global culture. There are devout Islamic, Christian, Jewish, etc mystics and skeptics who are not scriptural literalists who nevertheless believe in the existence of a Loving God - or the need to believe in the values of Love that the image of a Loving God - in its highest most idealist form embodies."

Ah, less specious in your projections, yet, still, the breadth and depth of the realities concerning those studies and those students informs my opinion that your projections still leave much to be desired. As well, it suggests that the supposed "materialistic crisis", you refer to, hasn't been determined by religions, rather secularist society; which is simply not true. Let me remind you that religions have directed the global societies, for the most part, for almost its whole 'civilized' existence, secularism only emerging in the last 90 years. For e.g., the height of uber greed and avarice, etc., was characterized by Martin Luther, and better by his more down to earth later followers, as "anti-Christ", the Papacy of the Roman Catholic empire, which is why there was a Protestant Reformation, etc.. How far modern day Protestants, and their forbearers, have strayed, now, they've joined forces with the "anti-Christ", the Papacy; becoming its equal in uber greed and avarice- now, it's a 2 headed monster, for sure.

DM: "This latter point is very important. All too often religious believers are portrayed as naive and uncritical and fully accepting of the doctrines and theologies traditionally associated with their faiths and denominations. In reality there are far more functional agnostics who attend churches and mosques and synagogues. They attend not to affirm old antiquated cosmologies - but to affirm the assertion that "if 'God is Love', then believers ought to be more loving toward one another." And they affirm this by gathering in communities of people who chose to be more loving toward one another and toward their neighbors. They also go to find love and support to live meaningful and moral lives and to raise families within a community of shared positive values."

Ahh, so, you suggest that, since you define values, mores, morals, etc., a certain way, and a portion of humanity does the same, you must be right, and a "loving God, consciousness, or something" exists and is real. Tragically limited in your religious, cultural, mores views, and, apparently, in your experiences, as well. I don't study these religions much, etc., yet, they all, in varying ways, suggest that dissipation, diminishment, destruction, and killing even, are aspects of higher powers, deities, and, ergo, aspects of what they would consider "real", God, deity, or love, etc.: Yoruba, Shamanism (some), Kali, voodoo, hoodo, santeria, taoism and Native American (some), satanism, Wiccan (some), etc.. Why do your projections seem more valid to you, an aspect of your false logic. As well, you are defining "love" as an open armed, airie fairie, namby pamby, artsy fartsy, touchy feely thing, as you project that love is you having things your way, and there being no conflict, real disagreement, strife, or struggle with that, totally patriarchal, or, in your case matriarchal, as, for e.g., one Buddhist perspective that could be related as love, compassion , suggests that it is ultimate struggle, not a passive acceptance, or wanting to be left alone, not a withdrawal, rather, an embracement of life and its struggle, where discipline, in all its rigors, is compassion, even though it doesn't involve much 'choice', as you would project is a cornerstone of your "love". Carlos Casteneda's qoute comes to mind, "discipline is the art of feeling awe", for example. Much closer to Mohatma Ghandi's Satyagraha, than most faith based, supposed "love" centered denominations, sects, etc., of religions and their directions of 'acceptance' of 'how things are', etc..

DM: "There is great political and cultural pressure out there to stereotype religions as the source of evil - and their practitioners (especially of other, alien, faith traditions) as fanatics. When we make the choice to step outside the cultural expectations (and liberals have just as many such unquestioned, unexamined expectations) then we find that faith communities are more often than not just that - people who come together to strengthen each other's faith in the future and their ability to hold to a path of love - despite the pressure from the world around to act in selfish and self-serving ways."

Ahh, you're making much more sense, yet, you still project the ascribing of "faith", as a common denominator, and suggest that they're remedying societies failings; when they're just as responsible for those failings being manufactured, if not more so, etc.. As well, the history, especially as of late, with the organizing force called "faith-based society", has not been what you suggest, it has been totally authoritarian in nature.

DM: "Religions and church communities are still the place where most real revolutions happen: Gandhi's satyagraha movement coming from his Hindu precepts, the Civil Rights movement coming directly from the prayerful discipline of Black Baptist churches, Liberation theology in Central America or the Catholic Worker movement in the US. They are so because revolution requires huge leaps of faith and a willingness to do the "right" thing - even when it may bring one's own life into jeopardy. And faith is simply not sustained well in isolation. Love is simply not a solitary act! Personal faith and the affirmation of communities of faith go hand in hand."

More and more projections as you go along, I'll just show one, as I may be dead soon. Revolutions, specifically, don't need, nor, is it even desirable for their participants to have, "faith", as the logic of rationality, reason, deductive and otherwise, and critical analysis of self, others, community to global, socialization to society, the past, present, and the probable future are its marrow to flesh; subconscious to unconscious faith is, at best, periphery and not discerned or acknowledged, etc.. Thjat being said, there have been what some could call non-secular revolutions, even though, they would never characterize themselves as such, and it's disingenuous for you to, like revolutionary Christianity in post Martin Luther times to the more recent South American thread.

DM: "We often stereotype 'faith' as equivalent to 'belief' (and 'belief' as equivalent to 'dogma') - it is not! Faith is a choice individuals make to live a life in opposition to secular materialism. It's a choice that gives meaning but means making some hard sacrifices. People find real strength in communities where that faith is shared. [Inevitably that leads to creating and/or affirming "stories" (metaphors) that give images and substance to the acts of faith - but the faith is something deeper than the stories and the scripture readings - and the strength of faith communities rests in something more basic and simpler than a shared liturgy or set of doctrines.]"

Now you project what faith is, and is not, yet, sadly, badly, a study as defined in opposition to another is stilted, at best, and lacks any true vitality, ergo, any true growth or evolutionary staying power, etc.. You're projecting faith in an almost existential way, yet, existentialism doesn't allow for faith; especially as you're projecting it is defined, or, at least, definable.

DM: "We need to challenge authoritarianism for the evil that it has become throughout human history. And we also need to weed it out of institutions (including religious ones) where it has corrupted the process or the goals and where it is used to undermine mutual respect and love. But we need to look again at religions and stop (as liberals wedded to our own narrow cultural biases and blindness) trashing them and start looking again at why they are not only worth supporting but why they may be the only institutions with the strength and perspective to speak effectively against the current widespread corruption we see around us - not just in our political institutions but in the wider cultural artifacts of every aspect of our lives."

Ahh, you now go all the way with your projections, faith is to be definable as a Judeo, Christo, Islamo concept, monotheistic, "people of the book", etc., as it embraces the existence of "evil"; yet, what's not authoritarian about your "loving entity"- with real analysis, you would find your definitions are authoritarian, albeit to a far lesser degree (which, ergo, you would project as desirable). Your acceptance of the Hebraic projection of "evil", which translates today into the supposed existence of a "devil", is totally authoritarian; especially since it doesn't exist as a mystical entity- as there is only the historical to present actuality of the wrong deeds men have done, multiplied astronomically over time, etc.. Cloaking it in mystery, or as "God's unknowable, yet, all powerful plan", is just people embracing ignorance, as opposed to studying in greater detail what reality actually is.

DM: "There are religious institutions out there that are wonderful repositories of great wisdom about how to address and work toward the healing of many if not most of the great moral struggles of human history (including their recurrences in our own times). This also includes the struggle against authoritarian abuse and fundamentalism. It's past due time for liberals and progressives to look again at religion if they have not already chosen to do so. We need to stop falsely characterizing religion as the "problem" and start looking to it as a big part of the solution."

Well said, yet, your projections are far too far reaching. We must also struggle with anti-authoritarianism, for, e.g., now that extinction of humanity and large mammals is on the horizon, can we "turn the other cheek" continually, and just aid and abet the extinction processes of the supposed Christian cults of greed and avarice, etc.? As well, the obedience to technology, 'la machine', by almost all, suggests that traditional religions, spiritualities, etc., may have more needed answers, even though they're more traditional, and, possibly, wrought with authority at present? As well, hasn't the root of all anti-authoritarian studies been founded in secular studies, yet, isn't your criticism mainly aimed at secularists? I suggest a more organic, individual, somatic, communal, wholistic, global and evolutionary approach. Thanx for the sayings. I find it odd that you're willing to struggle so hard to critique liberalisms criticism of religion, yet, found no problem with the extreme denigration of almost all by Jim Bryant. You brought up "Gandhi's satyagraha", yet, where's your very alive, very active non-violence, when you had a chance you just ignored his abuse of all and me; instead of bothering to bring it up to him, at minimum, even, just virtually, online- you talk the talk, yet, you don't seem to walk the walk.

Still, "la machine", the corporate structure, and their ever increasing and increasingly interlocking systems of premeditated mass-destruction-murdering programs are all just linx in the chains on humanity, attempting to stop us from breaking free, we can break the chain of murder, the chain of death; by abolishing the over use of fossil fuels and being most alive! That's also why I think allowing evolution as a common language, as it's the thread that links every, in the fabric of life, is a good place to start. For, the corporate structure has made a trap of this world, yet, all life is in it, so "we..." can't underestimate our responsibility; that generations past have heaped on our heads and shoulders by not acting on theirs, then. Dylan Thomas' poem's line comes to mind :) "...and death (murder) shall have no dominion...", as others might say, "we, the people..." can make it so! Will you? By the by, "In Germany they [the Nazis] came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up. - Pastor Martin Niemoeller, 1946", so the story goes, though, you might know that they actually came first for the mentally ill, elderly, handicapped, diffabled, foreigners, poor (Gypsies, Roma, et al); homeless, like the republicans are doing now. Defend yourself by defending them, one for all, all for one! Remember the lessons of WWII, if you're not taking bullets, you're making them, etc.; I'm bleeding every moment, are you? What do you think? From the heart in the heart of the heartland. Some groups I moderate:

Disabled Greens News and discussion, home page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DisabledGreensNews/ ,

Abuse in Therapy, homepage:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AbuseinTherapy/

Diffabled, Mental Health, all related issues, advocacy, and professionals:

Invite link: http://passport.care2.net/invite.html?g=880 Homepage:

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/Diffabled_MentalHealth_Action

reality's webpage, blog :) http://360.yahoo.com/jamesmnordlund

"Painting is poetry which is seen and not heard, and poetry is a painting which is heard but not seen." ~ Leonardo da Vinci Enjoy an autumnal eve' as you can. Copy, share, as you will. Lest "we" forget, if you don't exercise responsibility, its Siamese twin sister, freedom, will wither like a muscle, as well. Sadly, now, it first needs to be exorcized, before its exercised. Viva la evolution!

Matutinally Yours,           

                                                          james m nordlund     reality (aja) :)

For those interested "of or pertaining to the morning, day: relating to or happening in the morning or in the early part of the day (formal), (Mid-16th century, from late Latin matutinalis, from Matuta, goddess of the dawn.)" Music is life's song accompanying the abundance of joy's Spring. I look forward to hearing from you. Oyate.