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HOME Features Activists PIL Studies ACTs & Laws SC Judgements Contact us Links Part 1 of a 3 part interview with Sarbajit Roy - Consumer Rights Activist
Interview with the Assassin - Part I
The India PIL e-group's 'Corporate Assassins Editorial Board' recently conducted a no holds barred on-line interview with Regulatory Assassin Sarbajit Roy. The interview has been severely edited for public consumption (the unedited version is available on the e-group). Roy - the most low profile of our Assassin awardees for 2003-2004 is unusually frank in this interview.
[CA] : Hi !
{SarbaJit Roy} : Hello.[CA] : So how do you view the CA awards ?
{Roy}: Well, I don't like being characterised as an assassin. I think your terminology is flippant and dismissive of the selfless service numerous private individuals and institutions are rendering to the nation.[CA] : But aren't persons like you hurting the nation and industry ?
{Roy}: I have been a part of the same industry for decades and I am still very much a part of the industry family. In every family there will always be black sheep who refuse to listen to the wisdom of their elders or who create problems for those around them. It is our public duty to educate these persons about co-operation and adherence to the laws and rules which govern our society. If a single person bends the rules to their profit and is not suitably punished, it encourages others to emulate them which in turn denigrates our nation and defames our industry worldwide.[CA] : But surely it is the job of Government to control such offenders ?
{Roy}: Look, despite being the world's largest democracy with a rich body of laws and a powerful and independent judiciary, the entire system is rotten to the core. The system is a sinking scow (old ship) leaking at every joint and persons like us are just manning the bilge pumps to keep the bloody cow afloat and save the passengers while privateers walk off with the spoils.[CA] : Privateers ?
{Roy} : We have got the best laws but no enforcement mechanism. Our regulators have been systematically stripped of their powers to the point where they can't even levy a 100 rupee fine on their own. And these are regulators such as the TRAI (Telecom Regulatory Authority of India) reponsible for controlling Mega-Billion Dollar infrastructure industries such as telecom, data and television. When Justice Sodhi was Chairman of TRAI he took so many independent decisions that the Centre was forced to emasculate TRAI to the point where it's now the lap-dog of the Government of the day and headed by bureacrats. These bodies have no resources, no staff, no powers and yet they are continually burdened with more and more responsibilities. Everyone knows the REAL answer to this, which is that they create more paperwork for industry.[CA] : But how about SEBI and the RBI ?
{Roy}: I can't comment upon SEBI other than saying that stock markets globally are nothing better than casinos to skin the gullible. RBI is an excellent institution, but once again the Government has started nibbling away at their powers. Today the MNC banks can cock a snook at the RBI without any fear and indulge in all sorts of larceny, while the nationalised banks must carry out their social obligations and be a burden on the public exchequer. Till say 2 years ago the RBI's DBOD (Department of Banking Operations and Development) used to licence and regulate all these MNC banks, today these same banks have been left to operate under market forces (the technical term is 'forbearance') and the consumers are left with no recourse except the consumer courts. Even the protection of the Banking Ombudsman is not available to consumers of MNC banks who utilise the services of criminals and off duty policemen to victimise their clients, in any other civilised country these MNC banks would be characterised as a 'mafia'.[CA] : Mr Roy, Sarbajit (?) how did you get involved with these issues ?
{Roy}: Well please call me Sarbajit, anyway, my mother and brother had both studied the law at the prestigious Faculty of Law at Delhi University. I used to read their text books and the like. I was busy practising engineering and working in industry. Unfortunately I was embroiled in a matter where the other party was represented by Ms. Indira Jaisingh and I couldn't afford equivalent counsel. I had a really fiesty young lawyer Advocate Ms. Anu Narula at the Delhi District Court (Tis Hazari) who really educated me about the legal system. So I decided on my own to read up every Supreme Court Judgement involving Indira Jaising - starting from that Olga Tellis matter about pavement dwellers in Bombay. Finally we decided to compromise the matter,and we went alone for 2 meetings at Ms. Jaisingh's office at Jangpura without any counsel. Ms.Jaising was most gracious and the final settlement was so fair that even Anu was surprised that the great Ms.Jaising had agreed to such terms. I realised at about that time - that its better to settle matters to avoid litigation, that egos are best left at the doorstep along with your shoes, and that 49% of something is better than 100% of nothing.[CA] : What was that matter all about ?
{Roy}: It was so far back that I would rather not discuss it. Generally it was a matter involving personal law which was complicated by the fact that I come from a small religious minority where the Indian laws are rather fuzzy. I am a 6th generation Brahmo Samajists (reformers) directly descended from the founder of our religion and I can never accept that I am Hindu. It is also my Brahmo faith that impels me to stand up and be counted.[CA] : What do you think the biggest problems of society today are ?
{Roy}: Whew ! that's like solving the meaning of life. When you reach a certain stage in life, I think its just the ordinary things to lead a normal life. I would say first of all we need law and order and that requires discipline and honesty which is sorely lacking in our nation today. Then as parents we would sacrifice everything to ensure a bright future and education for our children and the nation. After that I would say BSP or Bijli/ Sadak /Paani (Electricity / Roads / Water). Lastly I would say that our Indian Government had better seriously get down to the business of creating productive industries in the manufacturing sector which generate jobs, resources and taxes for the long term rather than putting all their eggs into frothy service industries like IT, BPOs and outsourcing. Today we have totally inverted duty structures which work against local manufacturers. Our raw materials like iron ore are being shipped below cost to competitors like China. Our utilities like electricity charges are 3 times more than in China due to inefficient state monopolies, power theft and vote bank politics, coupled with that you have misguided people like M.C.Mehta and his ilk running around closing industries all over the place.[CA] : But we thought all you environmentalists were on the same side ?
{Roy}: I'm as conscious about the environment as any one else, but I don't wear the fact on my sleeve. If the Government can't provide a small factory owner continuous electricity to run his machines, why should they be allowed to shut him down as a "polluter" if he is forced to install a generator set to stick to his export commitments. The Supreme Court has laid down some rule which says that in a particular matter only 2 advocates per side will be heard. Unfortunately this means that in cases involving Mr. Mehta nobody else really gets a proper chance to put their views across. That is why I will NEVER be an advocate and am a "petitioner-in-person". Having said that, I still have a great deal of admiration for what Mr. Mehta has achieved for the Public interest litigation cause and I believe that his greatest work still lies before him.[CA] : What are the sort of causes that interest you ?
{Roy}: For me to take up a cause it must at least fulfil 4 basic conditions. Firstly I must be personally affected - I'm not a mercenary who takes up any cause only for money. Secondly it must affect a great many other people besides me. Thirdly there must be a Government Regulator who is not doing their job. Finally there must be previous Supreme Court Judgements in the matter which are being flouted.[CA] : Why are you so anti-Government ?
{Roy}: No, no, I'm very pro Government. It's only when Government doesn't function the way its supposed to that I get pissed off. I'll cite you an example. When I was in the 9th Standard, my school (St. Mary's High School Mumbai} was an ICSE school about 6 months out of synch with the CBSE board. Now to sit for the National Science Talent Scholarships you had to be a certain age and also to be in the 10th Standard - which no ICSE student could fulfil. My parents got me to sit for this exam anyway and I won the Scholarship, unfortunately that year I was the only one from Maharashtra to win that scholarship and the Government took away my scholarship on the ground that I hadn't passed my 9th std. exam. So my parents went off to Delhi and fought with the authorities so I could sit for the scholarship the next year and I won it again - only this time round they had put in some new rule that the (generous) cash scholarships would only be given to "poor" students, so all I got in the end was Rs.100 alongwith a letter congratulating me for winnng. I consoled myself that I am probably the only person in India who has won this prestigious scholarship twice in a row. So can you blame me for being "anti-Government"?[CA] : Why did you have that "no publicity for me" tag, and what caused you to break it recently ?
{Roy}: I'm still very much a practicising engineer most of the time. Consumer Protection is pretty much a sideline of mine and I wanted to absolutely separate these two areas in my life. Anyone who deals with me on a face to face basis soon realises that I am not this vulture and/or parasite who sticks the Government after them, and neither am I some sort of snitch or informer who takes a cut from the Government. In fact have you ever heard of anybody actually receiving reward money from the Government? Since I have tremendous pressure on my time, I usually advise people on how to solve problems - both engineering or legal, and rarely file anything myself. Plus my engineering clients and industrialists would be pissed off to learn that their managers (very competent professional managers) were allowing a "corporate assassin" (your phrase) into their premises. I was constrained to break this self imposed rule on a one-time basis in the matter of CAS for reasons we can discuss later.[CA] : It's said that you have very good media links.
{Roy}: This is a gross overstatement. Yes I do come from a family which is well respected in the media. My aunt (father's sister) Mrs Amita Malik is a very senior journalist and from my mother's side the late Nikhil Chakraborthy editor of Mainstream and first Chairman of Prasar Bharti was very closely related. However, every responsible journalist or editor I know has thoroughly cross checked every quote I have given them, and nobody would print something just because I told them to. In fact I dislike the big papers like Times of India or Hindustan Times since they are devoid of news because of their blatant editorial / advertisement nexus despite their protestations to the contrary. The Times of India in particular wouldn't recognise a good news story if it bit them in the arse and I am probably going to cancel my subscription.[CA] : Can you enlighten our readers about your major causes in 2003-2004?
{Roy} : Last year was an interesting year.The 2 major causes I was involved in were the mobile scandal, and CAS (Conditional Access System for cable television) scandal. The modus operandi of the Government was the same in both cases. As far as I was concerned both these matters were essentially "Right to Information" and "Freedom of Speech /Expression" issues. I also had a small "Right to Information" matter with the Director of Education (Delhi) regarding nursery school admissions, unfortunately I couldn't pursue this matter further since some NGO called Social Jurist (with Ashok Agrawal) had recently raised several of these issues at the Delhi High Court and lost very badly. I also advised some friends in a very interesting proposition that Arya Samajis were not covered by bigamy laws. In fact I may just move the courts to halt these fake Arya Samaj marriages and bogus registrations, ie, these so called "court marriages" which have ruined the lives of so many innocent women. Your readers may be interested to know that my Brahmo Samaj in the 1860's had got passed the Special Marriages Act, which is virtually enshrined now as the Hindu Marriage Act of 1955. Whereas we Samajis have now moved on to a far superior Special Marriages Act of 1954. I am absolutely in favour of a secular Uniform Civil Code - although not for the same motives as my right wing friends. In fact I am apalled that these "ruling" parties are giving tickets to / nominating all sorts of bigamists to Parliament (primarily film stars) - some of whom had even colourably converted to Islam - which is now illegal vide the Sarla Mudgal SC Judgement (Indira Jaising again!)- what kind of message does this send to the youth of this country? I had also examined some matters concerning unsafe RTVs (Rural Transport Vehicles) which are now plying all over Delhi due to the Supreme Court's CNG order. These vehicles are highly unstable and some of them have a "limited slip differential" which gives them a tendency to skid. Considering that these vehicles are being primarily sold for "school bus" use and they have a gas tank I just shudder for all those little children who blissfully ride in them. [CA] : OK Sarbajit, now if we can get down to the specifics of being a Corporate Assassin, Oops Consumer Activist :-), techniques, tools, advice etc.
{Roy} : In addition to the 5 people you have "awarded", I would also suggest various institutions like Common Cause, the Consumer Guidance Society of India, several NGOs like Parivartan etc in Delhi. In fact there are so many fine people working across India most of them unknown to me. I just wish that there was some way to financially allow these young people to continue their activities, possibly by finance from industry or from a split of hefty fines from the courts.{Roy} : The motives of CA's are pretty diverse. In my own case it was possibly triggered by the first major computer virus I wrote in the late 80's which took out half the computers in India at the time. It just gave me an awful rush to be able to sneak into systems and cause havoc. Later, when I was involved in design aspects of military sub systems it was the same motivation of taking on an invisible "enemy" and matching wits - it was like a game of chess. The problem is that if you take the game too seriously you get institutionalised (in all senses) and you end up running a PIL factory. I really admire Colin Gonsalves though, he is setting up a system that's de-personalised and he's got fine young lawyers like Vipin Benjamin (?) to back him up. Ultimately though its all in the financing, people don't realise the sheer overhead in terms of money, staff, premises, equipment, library, stationery, typing and xeroxing, and especially TIME which it takes to see these matters through. That's why PIL litigation has been criticised as not being very effective because the affected people can't keep up the fight and after the first few orders the tide turns in favour of the oppressor. A secondary problem with these PIL type actions is that usually the victims only approach the lawyers at the last moment with hardly any supporting facts and evidence, they haven't seriously planned out their actions from the start, they haven't explored their alternate remedies like the Public Grievance Cells properly and these matters get quickly shot down by slick corporate lawyers. In any case most of these PILs today are motivated publicity stunts or to carry out some personal vendetta and the Courts are getting fed up.
{Roy}: Obviously I can't reveal exactly how I operate. If you are in my situation and are personally affected this is what I would advise you to do. I'll use the trivial example of a person who goes to buy a bottle of cough syrup for his sick 5 year old son and discovers that the still sealed bottle contains floating insects. Lets assume that he also has a cash memo and wants to fight the matter through. Even this trivial example presents numerous possibilities
a) The average bloke would go running to Consumer Court and win the satisfaction of a few thousands after 5 years. b) A slightly sharper operator would go running to the Press hoping that the manufacturer would approach him for a settlement (he's dreaming lakhs but would settle for thousands), when that fails he'll file a small suit in some court still hoping for a settlement. c) The honest person, who's determined to stand up, would first identify who the Govt Regulator for this activity is, in this case it would be the Local Drugs Controller, immediately send this authority a detailed short and factual letter by REGISTERED AD / SPEEDPOST only, calling for him to take action within 15 days with intimation to you. Rarely will you get any action from these worthies,so SIMULTANEOUSLY go to the regulator's website and see if they have any standard complaint form for matters like these, if so send it in- if not see if they have any form for implementation of the local Right to Information Act. These forms are very useful, by paying a small sum of say Rs. 20 or Rs. 50 you can prise out an answer (albeit evasive and mendacious) from the departments. Frame about 4 or 5 questions ostensibly seeking information - but in reality these questions are drawing attention to the action you require. The questions may be like - a) Is it not mandatory for the Drugs Controller vide section 12(3)(a) readwith section 17(2) of the Drugs Control Act 1857 (hypothetical) to safeguard the public by properly investigating and cancelling the licence of registered manufacturers and pharmacists on complaint of deficiency in formulations.
b) Has the complaint of the applicant dated 01.01.2004 in the matter of M/s Adulterors Ltd. been received by your offfice, if so what is the Diary No. / Identification Code of this letter in your records.
c) Has any charge-sheet or notice etc been sent to the parties complained against by your office, if so has any reply been received to the same by your office?
d) How many bottles of cough syrup were manufactured in the lot no. 1234 of February 2004 complained of, and how many of these bottles were shipped to Delhi.
e) What is the action taken by your office to prevent these bottles being supplied to the public in Delhi, such as by way of seizing these bottles, issuing public notice and press advertisement, getting the manufacturer to track down and recall these bottles, inspection of the manufacturers premises etc. How many bottles have been withdrawn till date?
Now with your answer / lack of an answer well in hand you are now ready to go to High Court in Writ. The High Court's in general tend to look very unfavourably on civil servants who don't reply properly - "what are you trying to hide?". Also Civil servants in general dislike having to reply to Court Notices, so you'll find yourself getting the results you require - just don't get too ambitious or expect too much. You will also find that you get better results if the matters are discreetly conducted away from the media glare where too many vested interests try to pile on. I say away from the media glare, because the danger is that if you go running to the press, its very easy for the opposite side to tarnish YOU as the blackmailing extortionist sabotaging the business of this impeccably ethical manufacturer by inserting cockroaches into their bottles of cough syrup or Coke (same thing ha ha).
{Roy}: I think every law abiding citizen should know the Constitution well, especially the Fundamental Rights and have a good idea of the case law on the subject. The Superior Courts have expanded these Rights tremendously so our Constitution is truly a living and flourishing document. Interested people should also read through writ petitions - please give some links to sample writs - remember it just costs you about 500 rupees to file a writ in the Supreme Court if you avoid using lawyers - about 400 rupees being typing and xeroxing fees and the rest being stamp charges.. It's the "Time" factor that is the real bummer - it just wastes so much time.
{Roy}: Unfortunately "Letter PILs" have got totally devalued today. What the Courts are expecting nowadays is a "telegram from tribal woman in remote area repeatedly gangraped by Government Officers and local Police refusing to register case" kind of scenario.
{Roy}: The dilema between filing a Writ in Supreme Court (Article 32 of the Constitution) and the High Court (Article 226) always exists. If you want speedier action go for Article 226. My rule of thumb for Article 32 - "Is the matter sufficiently Constitutional and violative of Fundamental Rights of a large class of persons dispersed throughout the territory of India?"
{Roy}: I honestly feel that if local government (lower officials) were sufficiently effective the Courts wouldn't get so clogged up. Today the Courts are being used as Post Offices simply because petty government officials are not doing their job. The "Right to Information" movement is the only way to tackle this menace head on. I salute giants like Justice Tarkunde and Aruna Roy and even Raj Narain as pioneers in this field. I would like to cite you a few examples of my own success in this area. Very recently I was privy to a conversation involving a leading (dynastic) politician who had got her child into a well known school in Delhi even before that school had sold the admission forms. I immediately took up the entire matter of admission into the "public schools" of Delhi through the Right to Information Act with the Director of Education Delhi, and the matter went up to the Public Grievance Commission where the Education Directorate were comprehensively routed. You will find now that the Education Directorate is more aware of the "Right to Information Act" and their routine tricks like not taking Rs.50 application fees from applicants and giving all sorts of vague answers have considerably reduced. I revisited their offices after about 5 months and I was pleased to see that the Right to Information Act is very well publicised throughout their premises. In an earlier matter I even successfully used the Delhi Right to Information Act to prise out information from the TRAI ( Telecom Regulatory Authority of India), an authority which is not covered under the Act. To avoid an action by me under section 409 of the Indian Penal Code (criminal breach of trust by public servant punishable wth life imprisonment) against them, I received a reply from the junior most official in the TRAI confirming that Airtel and Hutch had not entered into interconnect agreements with MTNL - which interconnect agreements any member of the public is entitled to view on payment of Rs.50. The very same day I moved the Supreme Court in class action letter PIL asking for compensation of Rs.10 trillion rupees under provisions of the Information Technology Act 2000 for all the ten lakh odd mobile users of Delhi who were disconnected for 4 days in the month of January 2003 in the "mobile wars". The TRAI then promptly agreed to initiate criminal proceedings against all these telecom operators and I believe that thousands of crores of rupees have been subsequently compounded as penalty by the various mobile operators. The moral of all this is that Government and the Regulatory bodies truly believe that they are above the law, and will only work if sufficiently motivated. We the Public must continually remind these buggers that they are here to serve us and not the other way around. That there are numerous provisions in law such as section 409 IPC to discipline these buggers, and the Supreme Court has passed a very helpful Judgement dispensing with the requirement to seek Governmental permission before prosecuting Govt officials in most cases.
--- End of Part 1 of the secret 3 part innterview with Sarbajit Roy, Corporate Assassin and top Consumer Rights Activist, the next 2 parts are available on the private e-group only ---- Note: This 1st part of the interview has been severely edited - the complete transcripts of all 3 interview parts are only on the e-group
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