Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 8:25:36 PM
From: lknipp@
Topic: [HOL] Angel & homeopathy

Hi Sharon,

<<I cringe to hear the name Nux Vomica... Nux Vomica IS produced from a plant  but it is one of the most poisonous drugs you could find. It has been used  for humans and animals for hundreds of years and claimed many victims that  might otherwise have lived. It should have been outlawed long ago. This is  one thing about homeopathy-- it uses good herbs but it also uses poisons and  I don't quite agree with its philosophy.  >>

Although I will be the first to agree that homeopathy and using remedies is  not something that should be taken lightly, it has effected some miraculous  changes in some animals and people in a positive way. I have nine books in my "reference" library on homeopathy or it's use in animals and people, so I have done quite a bit of reading about it, as I shared some similar concerns when I first started using it. One thing I would like to emphasize is that when they do provings on these remedies, often subjects
who volunteer for the provings are never given crude doses of poisonous substances, but rather potentized doses. What this means, is that in some cases, the substance that is diluted and shaken to a *dilution* of 1 in 100,000 parts, to a total of 60 zeros and more, can act to cure disease. At that level, sometimes a mere molecule is left of the original substance (scientists on the list, feel free to join in:))

I was involved for a year in a study group before I moved to OK; right now I am in another homeopathy study group. I continue to question and learn about homeopathy. I can tell you that I have used Nux Vomica successfully - my d** had a severe case of diarrhea that lasted for a number of days. One dose of Nux in a 6C potency and she was well on her way to recovery
within 24 hrs. It wasn't just a fluke as I had tried other types of meds and herbs during that same period of time. It worked because it matched her personality and individual symptoms *at that time*. I've also used it with my cat when he first came home after his 'bout with FUS/FLUTD and I think it started him on the pathway to cure. Aggravations can occur, but I've only had it happen once during the four years I've been using them. I would urge anyone that is seriously interested in using it without consulting with a homeopathic vet that really knows what they're doing, to study it thoroughly on their own to better understand the philosophy behind it.

Here are a few books I'd recommend:

Homeopathy: Medicine of the New Man by George Vithoulkas (technical, but really thorough)

The Consumer's Guide to Homeopathy by Dana Ullman, M.P.H.

The first couple books I bought also were a materia medica and a repertory - very useful. I hope that Nancy, Sandy, Tami, Tricia, Susan (or others) will also have some input of successes of their own. My feeling though, is that if someone really doesn't feel comfortable with it - they shouldn't use it - that's entirely their choice, of course. I also attended a workshop which helped allay some of my concerns with it. I joined the National Center, so I could receive newsletters. I can and will try to find additional material from my books to help explain this a bit better.

Leah

<< I cringe to hear the name Nux Vomica... Nux Vomica IS produced from a plant   but it is one of the most poisonous drugs you could find. It has been used  for humans and animals for hundreds of years and claimed many victims that  might otherwise have lived. It should have been outlawed long ago. This is  one thing about homeopathy-- it uses good herbs but it also uses poisons and  I don't quite agree with its philosophy.>>

Sharon, Nux is not the only homeopathic remedy made from a poisonous substance. There are many others e.g. Belladonna.  But like Leah explained, in homeopathy, we do not use the crude substance at all when the underlying plant is harmful. Instead, the remedy is diluted and succussed i.e. potentized, and that is then used to treat patients.

As per Avogadro's Rule, above a certain potency, there is no molecule of the original substance left in the remedy. So for example a person who is allergic to poison ivy can take homeopathic Rhus Tox; in fact, it may even may be the remedy indicated for that person based on constitutional factors.

So pls have no fear - homeo remedies are very far removed from the substances from which they are derived, and 100% safe from that point-of-view. However, that doesn't mean that I don't cringe when I see them touted as having "no side-effects" or safe under any and all given conditions.

My feeling is that anything that can heal, also has the power to hurt. Dr. Hahnemann himself said so in one of the Organons. I think it's good to have a healthy respect for remedies, regardless of their source.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

<< Nux Vomica IS produced from a plant but it is one of the most poisonous drugs you could find. It has been used for humans and animals for hundreds of years and claimed many victims that might otherwise have lived. It should have been outlawed long ago. This is one thing about homeopathy-- it uses good herbs but it also uses poisons and I don't quite agree with its philosophy. >>

Sharon, perhaps you do not understand homeopathy very well - the amount of the actual plant is so infinitessimal it cannot cause harm, except if given in too strong a dose or too often. Homeopathy does not work like "regular" medicine, and it does indeed use many "poisons". While it is possible, a low dosage of homeopathic nux vomica is extremely unlikely to cause any harm
whatsoever. I have taken it myself for years, and given it to my cats for various problems. It is nothing like taking the plant itself!

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but after extensive reading and years of use of homeopathy, I have to disagree with you. If anyone is new to homeopathy and concerned about its use, I suggest consulting a homeopathic vet.

Lee

<< I have a queen that is three years old, she has had heats since she was 9 months old, I have had her with a tom since she was a year old, he breeds her but she has never had kittens. I am open to all suggestions. She is a show quality cat and I really really want to have kits out of her. >>

Murex purpurea 30C stimulates ovulation, or it will treat cystic ovaries. Then there is one called "Ovary" 30C when there is ovarian dystunction.

Elaine

Hi,

I don't quite follow the rationale here.... Colloidal silver is used since it's a safe way to administer pure silver to a creature as it's very dilute. If you wanted the same effects, I think a homeopathic preparation of plain silver would do the trick without the potential for buildup of the actual substance. Why potentize the diluted form? Did I miss something again? LOL

If you'd like some symptoms from the silver nitrate picture (a standard homeo remedy) listed, just let me know and I'll type some up.

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

<<Does anyone have information on colloidal silver as a homeopathic remedy? >>

<< Thanks for the information. Does Dr. Goldstein say how long the homeopathic Thyro Drops should be used? >>

<As far as I know, as long as the cat is still taking Tapazole. The  homeopathic is a combination of remedies to control symptoms, as well as to  support the organs.  Some cats/dogs have been able after time to stop taking Tapazole altogether
 because the thyroid values became normal.>

This is really great! I'm glad to hear that it has helped so much. Do you  know if when the kitties stopped with the Tapazole if they also stopped with the Homeopathic combo?

<<From what I know about homeopathy,  this is not CLASSICAL homeopathy, because it is a combination of remedies, so
the classical homeopathy rules don't apply. Well, that's certainly being debated around the world as we speak. :-) The
combo-remedies are not classical, but whether using remedies in a non-classical way changes the age-old rules is another issue. Not one we're gonna solve in any case. LOL>>

<Really strict classical homeopaths (I think) do not use anything besides a single remedy, which may take a long time to work.>

They do use single remedies in classical prescribing, but the time they take to do their thing does not have to be a long time. The results are often nearly immediate, and if they're not readily observable soon, then another remedy is needed.

I think where people get this impression of classical prescribing being a slow cure is that classical homeopaths will not just treat symptoms. Many combo remedies for sale usually only do that. They don't really cure anything, but they sure will make you stop coughing/sneezing/having a fever/being anxious/whatever. But it'll be back....

To really cure, sometimes it takes several prescriptions to peel off the layers and cure each along the way to finally clearing everything up. That's not to say that you won't get immediate relief for whatever is ailing your kitty right away - you will since it's the first layer - just that you may not get down to the very root of things and rip it out by the roots right away. That may take time. Does that make sense? [For the rest of you intrepid homeopaths - and you know who you are - jump in anywhere here and rescue me!]

<Most of us with animals that have an illness needing treatment now, don't have the luxury of waiting to see if the homeopathic has worked. My viewpoint may not be accurate...I'm not a homeopath, and I've heard from and read
about homeopathy from so many different perspectives, it leaves me confused about what is "proper" usage.>

Believe me, the more you read the more confused you're gonna get! LOL It works along the lines of "the more I know, the more I realize how little I know". It is a very complicated healing modality with many differing philosophies, but the successes are so spectacular amd so broadly applicable that I am fascinated by it. I guess everyone has to find their own comfort level with a certain philosophy of it and go from there.

As for waiting to see if it worked, see above comments. Also, Homeopathy has many uses in emergency first aid, but I firmly believe that they should only be used by us laypeople if they're handy when we're on the way to the vet's office. I've been speechless with the incredible results of remedies in emergency situations which then obsoleted the need to see a vet, but I sure am not going to wait around to see if they work before driving to the vets. I like to hedge my bets in any way I can. :-) At the least, remedies may buy you time to get to professional help. The worst that can happen is for your vet to tell you (like they did me), "why did you think this was so serious? The bleeding has stopped." Little did they know that a quart or so was already lost before giving a remedy! My completely blood soaked shirt, blood up to the elbows, all over my face, etc. should have been a clue that the animal had lost a decent amount of blood.... If they could have seen my car!

<It seems to me to make the most sense to consider all available methods of treatment, and not be limited to just one.

Absolutely! I think that's the spirit behind this great list.

<I can tell you this...My mother in laws cat, Bolshoi, lived to be 18. He did  have to take Tapazole, but after the Thyro drops and Thyro Complex, the dosage was greatly reduced...and his heart quit racing, the rate went down to  normal.>

This really is good news and a great recommendation for homeopathy. Thanks for letting us know. This should give lots of folks hope for their kitties.

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

<<To really cure, sometimes it takes several prescriptions to peel off the layers and cure each along the way to finally clearing everything up. That's not to say that you won't get immediate relief for whatever is ailing your kitty right away - you will since it's the first layer - just that you may not get down to the very root of things and rip it out by the roots right away. That may take time. Does that make sense? [For the rest of you intrepid homeopaths - and you know who you are - jump in anywhere here and rescue me!] >>

Here's a couple examples that might help. With my Siamese, he was a relatively routine barfer - didn't much matter what kind of food. He also had occasional hacking, although never threw up any hairballs; dandruff in his coat. After treating him with homeopathy for a while, the hacking started to stop. After a period of time, the throwing up seemed much less; his coat seemed to be less flaky than before. The changes were there, but subtle. With my Giddy kitty, until I started treating him with homeopathy, he had one eye that would fairly routinely have some tearing off and on. His coat also had some dandruff problems. He didn't seem to have much energy. After a period of time with homeopathic treatment, his eye problem cleared a bit (although I still need to monitor this), his coat got better, I saw quite a change in his energy level.

Unfortunately, Giddy has CRF. Lately, he's had some nausea related to this; his energy level is less. I will be switching homeopathic remedies soon from one he's been using for a few months if I find after his blood panel that we need to keep some levels in check. I started my journey with homeopathy late in my cat's lives and they haven't been able to reap the long term benefits that a younger animal might - I'm hoping to see a different perspective with my d** as she's much younger and I'm more observant than I was five or six years ago.

It may be true that you don't always see immediate changes, but you should see some or it's clearly the wrong remedy. With deep seated chronic problems or terminal disease (such as Giddy's) you can give them a quality and extension of life they may not have had otherwise.

Leah

<< Isn't there someone on the list who actually discontinued sub-q fluids for their cat after an episode of CRF? Would they be willing to tell me what they did? Also, if someone could send me info on treating  pancreatitis, I'd appreciate it.

I just heard of 2 tigers, cousin tigers, that have these conditions. The  CRF tiger is feeling well enough to be getting feisty about his daily  fluids. I know it's a crap shoot, but maybe if I could send this person  some info on treating it holistically, they wouldn't have to fight the cat so much for the fluids. >>
 
Hi Debbie,

I think CRF means chronic renal failure, doesn't it?

Okay, we often had good succes here in Germany with the following remedies:

1.) Ney Nephrin - it's produced by VitOrgan and it is made out of kidney-cells you can get it for injection (1 ml 2 times a week s.c.) or also for oral administration (than it is named Ney Nephrin lingual) and it is been given two times a day 5 drops.

2.) The following homeopathic remedies are sometimes beneficial: Lespedeza sieboldii D1 (3 times a day 5 globules) Naphthochinon C30 (1 time a day 5 globules)

3.) you also can try the following chinese herbal patent formulas: Stephania + Astragalus Combination (Fang Ji Huang Qi Tang)
Astragalus + Alisma Combination (Shen Kang Ning) Vital Energy Combination (Zhen Wu Tang)

Here you must ask for the dosage because the different producers make different sizes of pills.

Good luck for you and the kittys

Simone with Yaica, Lilly, Lisa, Blacky and Moreno

<<But all the others  (Parvo, FIV ,FeLV, Rhintis,FIP) - why don't you try the Homeopathic nosodes for prophylaction? >>

Hi Simone,
I've used homeopathy with both of my pets, but usually not prophylactically. It seems like nosode use is a little more common over in European countries (at least in some areas). Other than the kennel cough trial conducted by Chris Day, do you know of any clinical trials that have been done on nosodes? If so, have there been any articles written up on them? I'm really interested in this, but as of yet, am not convinced of the effectiveness/safety of using them long term.

Thanks for any information you could provide!

Leah

Hi Leah,
I use the nosodes instead of vaccination for my cats since several years and they hadn't had any side-effects and they don't become ill until yet (maybe they also hadn't become ill without the nosodes but this question is the same by using normal vaccines).

I took the nosodes in 30C together and made with steril natrium chlorid solution a comp. in one potency higher for injection twice a year, but this is not the correct way and you shouldn't do that.

Instructions for the correct use as oral-vaccines are in the following books:

Be careful about the nosodes for feline leukemia. I have a very sick cat who my new veterinary homeopath suspects has had a reaction to leukemia nosodes. I was shocked by this, because I thought I was doing such a good thing for my babies by avoiding the vaccine. Should have

- Celeste Yarnall: Cat care Naturally
- George Macleod: A Veterinay Materia Medica and clinical repertory

If you don't have this books please let me know and I'll type it down for you.

I prefer the way to use which Macleod offers because he only uses 30C potencies - Celeste uses also 200c and 1000C and they are very hard to get here in Europe.

I've an article about the normal vaccination / oral nosode-vaccination and their different success in a population of dogs - there were made a study in Kennel cough. Unfortunately it is in German language. But the original had been written by
Dr. med. vet. Stephen Tobin, 26 Pleasant St., Meriden, CT 06450, USA Perhaps it is possible to contact him.

The nosodes can also be used therapeutically in two ways:

1. Isopathic = FIP-Nosode against FIP (I tried it one time and had succes)
2. Homeopathic = the normal way (similar-rule)

Hope I could help you a little bit

Love and Light
Simone with Yaica, Lilly, Lisa, Blacky and Moreno

Hi Simone,

<<I took the nosodes in 30C together and made with steril natrium chlorid solution a comp. in one potency higher for injection twice a year, but this is not the correct way and you shouldn't do that.>>

I don't think injections of nosodes or homeopathic remedies are used much here in the US, so that whole concept is somewhat different.

<< George Macleod: A Veterinay Materia Medica and clinical repertory >>

I have that book and refer to it occasionally. I notice there is a schedule in there, but I wondered if most who use nosodes do use that schedule or a different one depending on which nosode is used. Is that generally the dosage schedule that is used with all nosodes?

<<I prefer the way to use which Macleod offers because he only uses 30C potencies - Celeste uses also 200c and 1000C and they are very hard to get here in Europe. >>

I don't like the higher potencies either unless I'm using them under the direction of a homeopathic vet.

<<I've an article about the normal vaccination / oral nosode-vaccination and their different success in a population of dogs - there were made a study in Kennel cough. >>

I'm very familiar with that study - I have what I think might be at least a few pages of the study. The copy I have contains some charts showing the various different combinations of vaccinations or nosodes used. Kennel cough, generally speaking, though, is not a killing disease, like panleukopenia can be in cats. ( I lost a cat to this disease many years ago in spite of him being vaccinated for it.) When they've done some successful trials with diseases that are a real threat with kitties, I would feel better about using nosodes.

Thanks for the information on this Simone.

Leah

What you described is an isode, Lee. It is also known as an auto nosode.

A nosode is when a remedy is prepared from one source e.g. saliva of a rabid d*g (Lyssin) and used to treat all w/ the same Sx. An isode is taken from the patient him/herself so in that sense, it's more individualized. But then homeopaths (some of the real hard-core ones) look down on Isopathy, so I'm confused about this issue. What else is new? LOL

A sarcode is a remedy made from *healthy* tissue, whereas nosodes are prepared from diseased tissue. For example, Thyroidinum is made from healthy thyroid material.

For those of u that think homeo remedies are benign and "free of side-effects" (how that phrase irritates me when I see it on combo remedy boxes!!), just thought I'd share that I had a proving from 1 dose of Thyroidinum taken in spring water. I would hate to see a cat suffer.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

<<Also there  are sarcodes, which I believe are when the disease material is taken from  your own body, processed and potentized, and given back to you to cure your  own disease. If like cures like, I suppose it makes sense.>>

I'm just curious as to whether anyone on the list has done this for animals. We were going to try it with Megan but by the time the holistic vet brought it up and we were able to contact the pathologist, there was no malignant tissue left available. Surprisingly our allopathic surgeon was very supportive when we brought it up and helped us contact the pathologist -- the timing was just poor.

As it turns out, supplements are helping her a lot so I don't know if it would have been better than what we have but it's certainly something I'd want to consider if put in the same situation again.

susan

Hi Vick,

<<Well, after almost a year of trying to get Sam's potty problems under control with herbs and homeopathy, I've relented and put him on the antibiotics I got for him last July (as you can see, we've really NOT wanted to use these). Don't get me wrong - I haven't let him suffer, but it's obvious that I'm not eliminating his problem. He got uncomfortable enough to hose the comforter last night, so I started the antibiotics. >>

Are the antibiotics helping some I hope?

<<several homeopathics (altho I'm hardly an expert at it, I just gave a low dose of what seemed close, and when there was no improvement, stopped). >>

I checked back over my records to see which homeopathics I had used over time to help Giddy in his slow, but steady recovery from FUS/FLUTD. Here are the ones I used over time, in consult with a few homeopathic vets: nux vomica, lycopodium, sulphur, nitric acid, medorrhinum, thuja (cause we felt like the prior vaccs might be getting in the way of resolving the case).

After about eight months, there was enough improvement that something was working. In retrospect, knowing what I now know about classical homeopathy, I wouldn't have given him that many remedies over a period of time again, but I also went through about three homeopathic vets the first year because we were trying to resolve the "standing while urinating"
problem. By then, it had become a habit, as he still does this occasionally. I've gotten a little better at taking a wait and see
approach before I change remedies. Improvement might not even be noticeable in physical symptoms right away as much as some other subtle signs such as changes in personality and other chronic problems. When I was working on this, we were also working on some chronic type patterns that were not normal for a kitty.

<<Any new ideas? I'm so frustrated, and so angry with myself for not fixing this by now... >>

It is frustrating and very hard on the relationships of the humans in the house too. Do you think there's some scarring that has occurred that is causing some of the pain? I know that using higher doses of Vit. A, D and E really helped Giddy with this or I might still be dealing with it today. Best wishes with resolving this ----

Leah

Vick,

<<<Vick, maybe you've tried this already, or maybe it doesn't fit Sam the Man, but when Kelly had his crystals I used the homeopathic Cantharis>> >
 
<<Actually, I've looked that over and one of the hallmarks seems to be blood in the urine, which I'm not seeing w/ Sam. Everything I read about Cantharis says "blood in urine" or the like, so I figured that was a pretty important thing... if it's not, someone please correct me! >>

That is one of the hallmark symptoms, but another important part of that remedy is the "stinging, burning pain" and "persistant urging". It's also used in some cases for burns for that same reason, especially serious burns. If you've ever had a urinary tract infection, you're probably familiar with what I'm describing here as far as the "stinging,burning" aspect of it. It may not be appropriate for Sam, but does work in some cases.

<<<to help Giddy in his slow, but steady recovery from FUS/FLUTD. Here are the ones I used over time, in consult with a few homeopathic vets: nux vomica, lycopodium, sulphur, nitric acid, medorrhinum, thuja>>>

<<I have the first three, and can get the last, but nitric acid and medorrhinum aren't familiar to me. I'm not likely to find the symptom pictures for those, either, am I?>>

Medorrhinum is a nosode, so you won't find it in Boericke's MM. We tried it because one of it's symptom pictures is the "standing while urinating" - you haven't mentioned that, so I wouldn't bother with that one - just mentioned it because it was one we used during the treatment plan. Nitric acid also has some of the burning, stinging type sensation, in addition to possibility of casts and scanty urine. Of the various remedies mentioned, the nux, lycop., cantharis, sulphur or nitric. acid would be ones to check into probably. Problem is, you really need to look at the overall picture and it's extremely helpful if you have a repertory to do that.

Have you tried the horsetail and gravel root that Susan mentioned this morning? The Pit man (as Sandy so fondly calls him <G>) mentions the horsetail also and it's used in the Tinkle Tonic that Animal's Apawthecary makes.

<<I really tried to notice subtleties, but since I was giving 30C remedies without *really* knowing what I was doing, I didn't want to risk a proving.... I figured it was better to err on the side of caution.>>

Good idea - don't want to give one remedy too frequently. I didn't used to have much patience with a 30C potency, but lately with Giddy, a few times I've waited a couple weeks or more before giving another dose. You can't do that in an acute situation when an animal is in pain, like Sam, 'cuz you don't want him to get to a point where he's blocking. We'll find something
that works, Vick; it just may take some time and some thorough repping.

Leah

<<Vick, one thing Sandy suggested to analyze the narrowed-down remedy candidates was to go to Allen's keynotes: ? http://www.homeoint.org/books/allkeyn/default.htm>>

Cool - thanks Susan!

Hey, all you knowledgeable types - there's something under Nitric Acid which really struck me: Urine: scanty, dark-brown, strong-smelling, "like horse's urine;" <~~ Sam's pee smells like that - I can't believe I actually found a description of the way it smells.... everything else says offensive (it is), or something non-specific. I went and smelled again after he peed and damn if it doesn't smell like horses' urine.

(Yes, I realize I spend a little too much time at home. Never fear, Dave just made a beer run and soon I will have other stuff to think about :)

Does something like that scream "use this remedy" or are there other, less obvious considerations?

Vick and the kitties: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Vick,

<<Hey, all you knowledgeable types - there's something under Nitric Acid which really struck me: Urine: scanty, dark-brown, strong-smelling, "like horse's urine;" <~~ Sam's pee smells like that - I can't believe I actually found a description of the way it smells.... everything else says offensive (it is), or something non-specific. I went and smelled again after he peed and damn if it doesn't smell like horses' urine.>>

Didn't realize you'd been around many horses, Vick. I had one for twenty years, but I guess I'd forgotten what horse urine specifically smells like <LOL>. Our horses were hardly ever in a barn though, but in the pasture, so didn't notice it as much <G>. I was going to mention that as something kinda' specific, but I thought that people would think I was really in outer space. Does Sam fit the other criteria - scanty, dark brown, etc.?

You might be onto something here ---- but how does the rest of the symptom picture look with Nit. Acid?

Leah

Dear Linda,

So so sorry to hear about your poor rescue kitty:( Can u send me some more symptoms e.g. is there pus along w/ blood inside his ear? Do his ears smell? Is she scratching her ears a lot? etc.

Just looked at this rubric:
Ear, tumors:
cystic - Nit Ac

Then there are rubrics for under, behind, and in front of the ear but I didn't think those fit based on your description.

Blood oozing from ear - Crot-H
If there is pus in the ear, Hepar Sulph can't be beat.

There are pages and pages, so lemme know and I'll be glad to look it up for ya b/c this is a very serious acute situation and I feel we need to help this poor kitty yesterday.

Meanwhile, read up on the remedies I listed at those sites posted today by Susan - check Boericke's MM and Allen's Keynotes.

All my best, and hugs to poor brave kitty.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats